[BOOK SPOILERS] The Death of Ellaria Sand as we knew her

[Christi84]

I liked the Doran and Aereo part

I didnt like her at all in this scene, like shes trying too hard. I mean, shes saying to Doran, a man whose niece and nephews were butchered, whose sister was raped and murdered, to give her Myrcella, a child, so she can cut her up. What kind of sense does that make?

[Envie]

I think the 'vengeful Ellaria' works better for the show. Sad to say, people want revenge for characters they love and Oberyn was such a huge fan favorite last season, I'm actually not surprised they chose this route for Ellaria. People screamed for revenge for the Red Wedding and got nothing - not even Lady Stoneheart.

The scene about sending Myrcella's fingers one by one was a bit overdone but I don't really fault the actress, she's great at making the character believable but the choice of script may have been a bit much.

[Mladen]

The problem isn't that Ellaria is minor or not. Ellaria seems to be the voice of the author about revenge in the way Septon Meribald, another minor character, talks about the effects of war on the common men. Her speech sums up very well what the author wants us to feel about revenge and getting even: it never ends and you cannot win. It's obvious that Martin doesn't want us to feel that revenge is something positive we should aspire to, right? Ellaria speaks aloud about what statement he wants to make.

Exactly. And we see how last year it worked so well. In the first episode, when she was introduced, Ellaria hit the right note of what she is supposed to be when she tried to calm Oberyn from lashing out to Lannister men. This, as you said, was just another proof that show-runners can't actually have the normal female character.

[sj4iy]

Ellaria was such a minor character that it is hard for me to even be bothered by this change

I will say that I like Indira Varma and her version of Ellaria

even though she may as well be a completely new character

Basically this.

[Tijgy]

The problem isn't that Ellaria is minor or not. Ellaria seems to be the voice of the author about revenge in the way Septon Meribald, another minor character, talks about the effects of war on the common men. Her speech sums up very well what the author wants us to feel about revenge and getting even: it never ends and you cannot win. It's obvious that Martin doesn't want us to feel that revenge is something positive we should aspire to, right? Ellaria speaks aloud about what statement he wants to make.

:agree:

I also think it is strange she is saying she wants to mutilate Myrcella why I think she should know how Doran feels about hurting children after what happened to his nephew and niece.

Or isnt Myrcella a child anymore in the show? All those changed ages are so complicated!

[Ran]

They did the exact same thing to Catelyn, who went from arguing the futility of vengeance to "Kill them all."

My view is that the problem lies with how little time they gave Dorne -- 2 minutes to introduce a new area and a new character! Dragonstone got much more time in S2. Braavos got much more time in S4.

Cut out the fluff -- the well-acted but not particularly useful Varys-Tyrion scene, trim down the library scene at the Wall -- and you could easily double the amount of time. What does that get you? It lets you introduce the Sand Snakes, the characters no one has met before but has heard of in the previous season, and let them differentiate themselves: three half-sisters, each demanding revenge, each suggesting a method, Doran shooting them down... and he lets them go, unlike in the book, but he has his reasons perhaps. Ellaria can stand to wait until later, brought in to play peacemaker, perhaps, or if they insist to join them in cries for bloody revenge.

Dorne gets more time. Doran gets more time. The Sand Snakes gets more time, and they desperately need it because there's a weight of dubious opinion against them from the outset because of the costumes and apparent similarities. Indira's a great actress, but we know who her character is.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Exactly. And we see how last year it worked so well. In the first episode, when she was introduced, Ellaria hit the right note of what she is supposed to be when she tried to calm Oberyn from lashing out to Lannister men. This, as you said, was just another proof that show-runners can't actually have the normal female character.

It kinda gives away why Oberyn loved her and why they were a good match. They complemented each other. Which is said in the books as well: Ellaria knew the real Oberyn, not the sexed up sassy man, but the one who wrote poetry and took care for her when she was sick.

Which is another aspect of Ellaria that they are ignoring, something that GRRM has been quite obvious to portray in the books: the strength of motherhood.

See, we see Catelyn losing her husband and yet, she finds the strength to carry on because her son needed her. Then, she start to losing children and when she sees Robb died, she lost it and become Stoneheart.

Idem for Cersei. Whether you believe she loves her children or not, she kept on despite she lost Jaime for almost one year, because they needed her. The only time she cried and broke down was when Myrcella was going to leave to Dorne and she was in danger, as Tyrion pointed out. And, like Cat, she lost her mind and became a paranoid monster after she saw her son die.

Ellaria lost Oberyn and she kept on as well. She returned to Dorne and to her daughters and spent her time with her girls at the Water Gardens, probably mourning Oberyn but also, trying to soften the whole thing so they would be fine. That's strength. I'm sorry that D&D believe the only way a woman can be strong is by having weapons and wanting violence (Brienne and Dany's constant speech about breaking wheels) to the point of putting the life of her children in danger. Isn't Tyene her daughter as well? :dunno:

There is a constant in how Martin portray mothers, that's not something I'm making up. The reason Areo calls Ellaria strong is because she's still a functional human being despite she lost her husband, and because she still wants peace. Any other person would want blood. Ellaria said a freaking pray after she saw the skull of the Mountain. For all we know about her, she prayed for his soul. Forgive takes more strength than wanting revenge.

[Mladen]

Dorne gets more time. Doran gets more time. The Sand Snakes gets more time, and they desperately need it because there's a weight of dubious opinion against them from the outset because of the costumes and apparent similarities. Indira's a great actress, but we know who her character is.

This is my biggest issue. You don't just swap the entire character, or fuse several of them into one. This was done poorly because they didn't make Arianne's thoughts and emotions work with who Ellaria was last season. There is no natural transition. If they wanted her to play Arianne, OK... But this was the worst way to do so.

[Mladen]

It kinda gives away why Oberyn loved her and why they were a good match. They complemented each other. Which is said in the books as well: Ellaria knew the real Oberyn, not the sexed up sassy man, but the one who wrote poetry and took care for her when she was sick.

Furthermore, even in TV show, she was there when he said they don't hurt the little girls in Dorne. She would have known that Oberyn would hate Myrcella being killed or maimed because of him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As I see it, Ellaria is a combination of Arianne, Darkstar and Lady Stoneheart.

[Envie]

I have to wonder if details from Mr. Martin himself (as they now begin navigating into uncharted territory) made them decide to drop Arianne and put Ellaria into that role because of plot changes we don't know about in the coming book? It did seem to be quite a jarring change from Season 4 portrayal of Ellaria. We should try to remember that the last we saw of Ellaria, she was screaming and witnessing her beloved's head being crushed - so the shock of that and grief can cause anger and thoughts of revenge - certainly. I'm sad to think they've eliminated Arianne entirely because her story and interactions with Doran were such a great part of the Dorne story. I hope the Sand Snakes make a better replacement but so far they seem ... overdone?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

As I see it, Ellaria is a combination of Arianne, Darkstar and Lady Stoneheart.

And a poor combination at that. At least LS was a walking corpse and Arianne had legitimate reasons, and never intended to hurt Myrcella, only crown her. She later understands that to Crown her is to kill her.

[Mladen]

I have to wonder if details from Mr. Martin himself (as they now begin navigating into uncharted territory) made them decide to drop Arianne and put Ellaria into that role because of plot changes we don't know about in the coming book? It did seem to be quite a jarring change from Season 4 portrayal of Ellaria. We should try to remember that the last we saw of Ellaria, she was screaming and witnessing her beloved's head being crushed - so the shock of that and grief can cause anger and thoughts of revenge - certainly. I'm sad to think they've eliminated Arianne entirely because her story and interactions with Doran were such a great part of the Dorne story. I hope the Sand Snakes make a better replacement but so far they seem ... overdone?

No. This wasn't GRRM. His Ellaria and this travesty can't be even put in the same sentence. This was D&D and their continuation of oversimplifying female characters.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ellaria also screamed when Oberyn died in the books. Anyone would have. That doesn't mean she became a monster that wants to kill children.

[Envie]

No. This wasn't GRRM. His Ellaria and this travesty can't be even put in the same sentence. This was D&D and their continuation of oversimplifying female characters.

No, I didn't say George told them to write it this way, it does not seem like his style at all and why would he change the original story anyways? I said maybe when they had the all important "show is now passing book" conference, GRRM gave them details on who ends up getting killed off or is an end-game player which made them decide to dump Arianne and re-write her part into Ellaria (which isn't nearly as good as how it's written in the books). The show writers made this decision, you're right. But maybe that decision was based on larger plots and story outcomes for the future since we have no idea at this point?

[El Guapo]

Furthermore, even in TV show, she was there when he said they don't hurt the little girls in Dorne. She would have known that Oberyn would hate Myrcella being killed or maimed because of him.

She was not there for that.

[Mladen]

No, I didn't say George told them to write it this way, it does not seem like his style at all and why would he change the original story anyways? I said maybe when they had the all important "show is now passing book" conference, GRRM gave them details on who ends up getting killed off or is an end-game player which made them decide to dump Arianne and re-write her part into Ellaria (which isn't nearly as good as how it's written in the books). The show writers made this decision, you're right. But maybe that decision was based on larger plots and story outcomes for the future since we have no idea at this point?

Well, I guess the moment they decided to cut off Griffs, Arianne had to go too. And they were left with the Myrcella plot so they didn't know how to tie it.

She was not there for that.

Wasn't she present during wedding feast when Oberyn says to Tywin and Cersei that "harming women and children is considered distasteful in Dorne"?

[jandslegate]

I felt really upset, really. What she said, about sending Myrcella's fingers to Cersei was so OOC that it made me cringe. Seriously, it doesn't make sense with last Season's Ellaria, nor book Ellaria, nor Arianne. She sounded like Cersei O.o

It's scary where they are taking her. Ellaria was always a beloved character of mine, and the way Indira portrayed her last season made me very happy. She was hot, sweet, caring, loving, openminded, and a true companion to Oberyn... a friend, not only a paramour.

Yeah it sounded like she was also absorbing Darkstar too. The part about sending pieces sounded more like him than Ellaria or Arianne.

[El Guapo]

Well, I guess the moment they decided to cut off Griffs, Arianne had to go too. And they were left with the Myrcella plot so they didn't know how to tie it.

Wasn't she present during wedding feast when Oberyn says to Tywin and Cersei that "harming women and children is considered distasteful in Dorne"?

Yes. I thought you were talking about Oberyn's talk with Cersei when he said "we don't hurt little girls in Dorne".

[JonCon's Red Beard]

She was not there for that.

Those are two different scenes. Cersei says that little girls are always hurt when she's alone with Oberyn. Oberyn says in Dorne they don't hurt children when they're at Joffrey's wedding, and he was talking with Tywin and Cersei. Ellaria was there.