Half-truths, exaggerations, and lies: Jorah Mormont's assessment of the Dothraki

[Jak Scaletongue]

TerrorVoid & hodorisfaclessman - you're both wrong and right. The Mongols preferred to scare their enemies into surrender. Genghis's modus operandi was to offer to accept their surrender or they all die. Some didn't surrender and Genghis and his Mongols made examples of them, using them as the lesson for the next walled city - "You heard what we did to your neighbours? Are you going to fight, or surrender?" They tended to surrender, until you got into the next geographical region and the new folks decided that all those stories must be exaggerations, so they fought, lost, and were used as an example for the next city (who would then usually surrender without a fight). As for the fuedal fragmentation - yes and no - it wasn't the ONLY thing helping the Mongols (the Mongols themselves were willing to learn as well; such as learning how to siege a city), but it did certainly aid them especially during their Chinese campaigns. China was 3? separate kingdoms at the time and none of the three were willing to help the others out, and the kingdom furthest south (the Song, I think?) actually did attack their northern neighbours from the south while Genghis was attacking those same neighbours from the north. So, they did fight actual, honest-to-god, trained and drilled armies, while also using political fragmentation to their advantage.

I know nothing about the samurai, so I'll stay out of that.

The Huns though - I'm gonna go look it up, cause I'm sure they fought some decent Roman armies. Certainly no Caesar or Scipio, but Marcus Aurelius was a pretty impressive general, as were Hadrian and Trajan. I don't think those are the right era, though... ETA: so, I looked it up and after scrolling through Wikipedia I've concluded that at that time just about anyone could have walked into the Roman Empire and taken it over ----OH WAIT, they did! The Goths, the Huns, the Gauls and Germans were all causing trouble within and without the borders, political instability, famines and plagues - this was a BAD time to be a Roman! So yeah - the Huns had little to no resistance from the Roman Empire at the time. It looks like their biggest resistance came from the other tribes in the area who wanted Rome for themselves!

[Mal Malenkirk]

Who was their enemy?

Other samurais, mostly.

What are the samurais doing in this discussion anyway? They have little to do with mongols, except for the fact they stopped them dead in their tracks when they tried to invade Japan. And the mongols themselves have little to do with the Dothraki, starting with an appreciable knowledge of siegecraft.

[Dragon Seed]

We are told several times that the Dothraki use dragonbone bows which outrange even the Summer Islanders. This point is always neglected. Samurai, Mongols, Huns, and many other cultures fired bows from horseback with great accuracy. I am not expert enough to say what the outcome would be, but I think you painted a picture that is at least as biased as Jorahs was.

I remember reading about the Dragonbone bows. I was waiting for someone to mention them, unfortunately I don't have the time to fish through my books for the exact words but I most definitely remember them being mentioned.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Who was their enemy?

Yeah? And who did they fought? Their first military success was in 1905. And, well, whole world helped them.

Feudal fragmentation won mongolian wars, not mongolians.

Like what romans did they fought? Julius Caesar? Scipio? Mb they've even met proper roman legion?

They fought themselves and mongols before that ....those were as you said ' real wars'

Pretty sure history would sum it up as a little more than that, and yes shockingly enough mongolians were involved with the mongol empire building

At this stage your pretty much asking me to walk you though history here

[Mal Malenkirk]

Dragonbone are to bows what Valyrian steel is to sword. They're individually great but in mass warfare they're irrelevant because you can't equip a substantial portion of your army with something so rare.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Spot on.

2. Here is the first lie (or is he just mistaken?) in the conversation. Jorah claims that Dothraki bows outrange Westerosi bows. Ignoring the sheer implausibility of that, and ignoring Westerosi longbowmen and crossbowmen, Jon Con, an unbiased source, claims the opposite: "A third of Balaq's men used crossbows, another third double-curved horn-and-sinew bows of the east. Better than those were the big yew bows borne by the archers of Westerosi blood." Jon Con's assessment is also more accurate to the laws of physics. Speaking of which, we also have our first example of Jorah downplaying an obviously important factor: sharpened stakes and shield walls.

Most likely mistaken. There is a very valid explanation for that statement: the weight of the arrow. The Dothraki would use almost exclusively hunting arrows, suited to penetrate skin and not much more.

The Golden Company would use war arrows, suited to combat armor (having at least a chance would be the better expression). The latter ones need to transfer more energy. They do that by being stiffer, loosing less energy to flexing, as well as having more mass. This additional mass shortens the range.

If you don't look at the arrows to closely, they look very similar. But it's basically comparing the top speed of a sports car and a tank.

We have an example in which different khals joined forces and even after some of them fell in battle, their khalassars remained true to the plan and destroyed the Sarnori host with a feigned retreat tactic.

Meh. The shortcomings of that example were discussed often enough, and I'm still not convinced that was an actual tactic and not something that just happened. Because commanding officers don't die in successful feigned retreats, only in ones that are necessary.

We are told several times that the Dothraki use dragonbone bows which outrange even the Summer Islanders. This point is always neglected. Samurai, Mongols, Huns, and many other cultures fired bows from horseback with great accuracy. I am not expert enough to say what the outcome would be, but I think you painted a picture that is at least as biased as Jorahs was.

Khal Drogo uses one, or rather he gets one when he marries Dany. Apart from him, nobody does.

That's a bit like giving every grunt Valyrian steel because Ned Stark had Ice.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Khal Drogo uses one, or rather he gets one when he marries Dany. Apart from him, nobody does.

That's a bit like giving every grunt Valyrian steel because Ned Stark had Ice.

Yeah thats why I had asked for quotes as its the only instance I can remember them having one and as dany describes it as being taller then she is its is def not a weapon suited for a horse archer

[TerrorVoid]

westeros suffers from feudal fragmentation as well.

Not even close. They are well developed 7k. This is not civil war. This is war over a continent. England and France being separate countries and fighting each other doesn't mean they suffer from feudal fragmentation.

[Slowpoke Martin]

If anything this just goes to show that not everything characters say is to be believed. GRRM has said many times that characters speak from their perspective and do not know the truth of situations.

Since a Westeros vs Dothraki battle has never happened, the outcome depends on the soldiers involved. Ned was correct about the outcome.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Not even close. They are well developed 7k. This is not civil war. This is war over a continent. England and France being separate countries and fighting each other doesn't mean they suffer from feudal fragmentation.

If the dothraki were comming with danerys then they werent facing a united westeros, dorne at the very least was on their side along with god knows who else.

[Taenqyrhae]

Other samurais, mostly.

What are the samurais doing in this discussion anyway? They have little to do with mongols, except for the fact they stopped them dead in their tracks when they tried to invade Japan. And the mongols themselves have little to do with the Dothraki, starting with an appreciable knowledge of siegecraft.

The weather stopped the Mongols from invading Japan, samurai had little to do with it. Most military historians agree that the Japanese caught an extremely lucky break and would have crumbled before the Mongols is not for the freak storm that "kamikaze" is named after. I think the Japanese probably recognize that too, considering they named their last weapon against an overpowering force that was sure to beat them after it.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If the dothraki were comming with danerys then they werent facing a united westeros, dorne at the very least was on their side along with god knows who else.

Considering that half the regions of Westeros on their own already outnumber the combined Dothraki host...

[TerrorVoid]

They fought themselves and mongols before that ....those were as you said ' real wars'

Pretty sure history would sum it up as a little more than that, and yes shockingly enough mongolians were involved with the mongol empire building

At this stage your pretty much asking me to walk you though history here

Yeah, mongols getting lost in the storm is a huge achievement of japaneese military.

And?

Walk. Explain, how western roman empire crumbled under it's own weigh even without anyones help.

If the dothraki were comming with danerys then they werent facing a united westeros, dorne at the very least was on their side along with god knows who else.

Vyseris isn't the best source.

[hodorisfaclessman]

The weather stopped the Mongols from invading Japan, samurai had little to do with it. Most military historians agree that the Japanese caught an extremely lucky break and would have crumbled before the Mongols is not for the freak storm that "kamikaze" is named after. I think the Japanese probably recognize that too, considering they named their last weapon against an overpowering force that was sure to beat them after it.

hmmm maybe not

http://web.archive.org/web/20110605024711/http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/ARTICLES/intervention.htm

Heres a pretty good website where they discuss history and theres plenty of excellent counter points based on fact

one good point

http://historum.com/asian-history/18206-mongol-invasions-japan.html

''The Mongols did land forces in Japan during the 2nd Invasion and they actually captured Tsushima and Iki rather quickly, but once they got to a place that was actually defended (Hakata) they were forced back to Iki to await reinforcements. Once those arrived, they launched an assault and were driven back to their Islands by the Japanese defenders.

The second invasion was even less successful than the first. They captured two undefended islands in six weeks and were repeatedly beaten back. Just before the storm struck their fleet, the invaders were basically living on their ships and being harassed by Japanese soldiers.''

[hodorisfaclessman]

Considering that half the regions of Westeros on their own already outnumber the combined Dothraki host...

To be fair if drogo had been allowed to keep building we dont klnow how big that would have been, he had 40k and he had just taken out one of his biggest rivals

jhaqo had 20k, pogo 30k last time so they added another 10k easily enough to drogos.

[BitsOfBrains]

I think the easy answer to why Jorah is spinning a fairy tale for Daenerys is because she is a child and children love fairy tales. Viserys did too.

If he just told her straight up, "Nope sorry, you have absolutely zero chance of defeating even a single one of the seven kingdoms" she would have just plugged her ears and said, "LALALA USURPERS DOGS I AM THE BLOOD OF THE DRAGON DO WHAT I SAY!" like she does when Selmy tries to fill her in on the fact that her father deserved to die.

He tells her what she wants to hear, or as much as he can tell her without being a complete liar.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

To be fair if drogo had been allowed to keep building we dont klnow how big that would have been, he had 40k and he had just taken out one of his biggest rivals

jhaqo had 20k, pogo 30k last time so they added another 10k easily enough to drogos.

So what?

That puts them in the upper third of single Westerosi regions in a purely numbers way. Never mind that the Dothraki are basically an armed mob while the Westerosi count only actual, professional soldiers.

[Nihlus]

The weather stopped the Mongols from invading Japan, samurai had little to do with it. Most military historians agree that the Japanese caught an extremely lucky break and would have crumbled before the Mongols is not for the freak storm that "kamikaze" is named after. I think the Japanese probably recognize that too, considering they named their last weapon against an overpowering force that was sure to beat them after it.

This is kind of inaccurate. The typhoons are overrated in importance. The first one hit when the Mongols were already in retreat: they curb-stomped the first Japanese force mustered to meet them, but correctly predicted that many more were on the way, and deemed the casualties they had taken unacceptable. The second one hit after the Mongols had already safely landed the majority their forces (~100,000 landed, mostly Chinese levies), and after a bunch of fighting had taken place. The first invasion failed because of attrition (25,000 men = not enough to conquer Japan). The second failed because of the Mongol forces being scattered and poorly led while the Japanese forces were unified and prepared beach fortifications and night ambushes (meaning no effective beachhead was established). Not just the weather. Oh, and the Mongols using shitty river boats helped too.

Spot on.

Most likely mistaken. There is a very valid explanation for that statement: the weight of the arrow. The Dothraki would use almost exclusively hunting arrows, suited to penetrate skin and not much more.

The Golden Company would use war arrows, suited to combat armor (having at least a chance would be the better expression). The latter ones need to transfer more energy. They do that by being stiffer, loosing less energy to flexing, as well as having more mass. This additional mass shortens the range.

If you don't look at the arrows to closely, they look very similar. But it's basically comparing the top speed of a sports car and a tank.

Meh. The shortcomings of that example were discussed often enough, and I'm still not convinced that was an actual tactic and not something that just happened. Because commanding officers don't die in successful feigned retreats, only in ones that are necessary.

Khal Drogo uses one, or rather he gets one when he marries Dany. Apart from him, nobody does.

That's a bit like giving every grunt Valyrian steel because Ned Stark had Ice.

Thank you. I agree a mistake is the most likely explanation. It's an easy mistake for someone to make, and Jorah seemed more intent on dishing out implausible hypotheticals and half-truths rather than outright lies.

If the dothraki were comming with danerys then they werent facing a united westeros, dorne at the very least was on their side along with god knows who else.

Dorne would side with the murderous slavers who have no chance at winning even a single battle?

I remember reading about the Dragonbone bows. I was waiting for someone to mention them, unfortunately I don't have the time to fish through my books for the exact words but I most definitely remember them being mentioned.

As mentioned, Dragonbone bows are the equivalent of the 200 or so magic Valyrian steel swords in Westeros. Drogo uses one. No one else does. Which just makes sense, since where would these savages get enough dragonbone for tens of thousands of bows?

So what?

That puts them in the upper third of single Westerosi regions in a purely numbers way. Never mind that the Dothraki are basically an armed mob while the Westerosi count only actual, professional soldiers.

Also, Neddard doesn't consider 100,000 screamers Dothraki to be much of a threat to the forces commanded by the Warden of the East. That 100,000-strong horde with teleportation powers that Robert made up would be larger than any Dothraki "army" ever.

[hodorisfaclessman]

So what?

That puts them in the upper third of single Westerosi regions in a purely numbers way. Never mind that the Dothraki are basically an armed mob while the Westerosi count only actual, professional soldiers.

My point being we dont know how big the khalassar would have been by invasion time.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Dorne would side with the murderous slavers who have no chance at winning even a single battle?

To get revenge yeah hell doran was married to a women from a city that practices slavery (they are forcibly shaved bare in novos)

and no chance? come on now thats just daft literaly any army has a chance agaisnt another if used right esp as we have 0 idea what extra resources would be have been comming along (we know already the golden company was ready with their 'friends in the reach ' and varys capable of killing capable kingslanding based leaders at will)