Half-truths, exaggerations, and lies: Jorah Mormont's assessment of the Dothraki

[Jak Scaletongue]

Yeah, mongols getting lost in the storm is a huge achievement of japaneese military.

And?

Walk. Explain, how western roman empire crumbled under it's own weigh even without anyones help.

Vyseris isn't the best source.

1) Wasn't just the storm, the Japanese made a pretty good showing. Check out some of the links provided, pretty cool stuff.

2) I have mentioned how you both were kinda right and kinda wrong - I'll not redo all that here

3) So, I'm not sure what you're asking here exactly - cause yeah, the Western Roman Empire pretty much collapsed in on itself. The Huns did most of their damage to the Eastern Roman Empire, cause it was the richer half (why would you raid the barbarians you've already raided and pushed into the Western Roman Empire? Stick to the rich half!). Technically, the Huns ran roughshod over the Eastern Roman Empire. At best, they hit up the eastern most portion of the Western Empire. The dude in charge of the Western Roman Empire at the time was actually pretty buddy-buddy with Attila, cause he'd been a hostage/ward (think a Theon situation) with a tribe of Huns when he was young. Flavius Aetius was his name, he's pretty interesting. In 432 Aetius lost everything and fled to the Huns, who helped him get it all back. The Huns were also used as mercenaries for the Romans to fight against the German tribes (that the nomadic Huns were pushing further into Roman territory, it's a very ironic situation, I highly recommend reading up on it yourself, it's far to complicated to walk you through it!). Then, once the Huns gave the Western Empire a go, Aetius turned against the Huns and beat them back (into the Eastern Roman Empire). Seriously, even just Wikipedia this stuff - it's pretty interesting. Or better yet - "History of Rome" podcast by Mike Duncan. Best Roman podcast EVER! He'll teach you everything you ever wanted to know about the Romans, and then some!

I remember reading about the Dragonbone bows. I was waiting for someone to mention them, unfortunately I don't have the time to fish through my books for the exact words but I most definitely remember them being mentioned.

http://asearchoficeandfire.com - nice, quick reference. I saw the link on a different thread, and it's great! Might want to use your books when pulling quotes for theories and other elaborate things, but as a quick reference it's pretty handy.

[hodorisfaclessman]

http://asearchoficeandfire.com - nice, quick reference. I saw the link on a different thread, and it's great! Might want to use your books when pulling quotes for theories and other elaborate things, but as a quick reference it's pretty handy.

cool link cheers man

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

2. Here is the first lie (or is he just mistaken?) in the conversation. Jorah claims that Dothraki bows outrange Westerosi bows. Ignoring the sheer implausibility of that, and ignoring Westerosi longbowmen and crossbowmen, Jon Con, an unbiased source, claims the opposite: "A third of Balaq's men used crossbows, another third double-curved horn-and-sinew bows of the east. Better than those were the big yew bows borne by the archers of Westerosi blood." Jon Con's assessment is also more accurate to the laws of physics. Speaking of which, we also have our first example of Jorah downplaying an obviously important factor: sharpened stakes and shield walls.

Maybe they don't contradict each other, Jorah talks about range, Connington talks about overall quality. Besides, are these dothraki? Do they even use dothraki made bows? Maybe many cultures use different curved bows, like in real life.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Maybe they don't contradict each other, Jorah talks about range, Connington talks about overall quality. Besides, are these dothraki? Do they even use dothraki made bows? Maybe many cultures use different curved bows, like in real life.

I tried to explain that above: The Dothraki use the civilian version of arrows. They fly further from the same bow, but have trouble punching through wet paper (exxagerated).

JonCon talks about military arrows. Heavier, stiffer, way more impact, but don't fly as far.

[hodorisfaclessman]

I tried to explain that above: The Dothraki use the civilian version of arrows. They fly further from the same bow, but have trouble punching through wet paper (exxagerated).

JonCon talks about military arrows. Heavier, stiffer, way more impact, but don't fly as far.

I dont get the impression that at this stage jorah is some sort of outsider who doesnt know what weapons the dothraki use for war vs hunting

Theres 2 simple explanations

1) Most likely: grmm didnt really keep track of such tiny details like this

2) jon con speaks of eastern recurve bows (as in the west/westeros horse archers dont seem to be employed much ) as a general term and there could be many types as there were in real life ...... the dothraki simply use one with a greater range than most.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Jorah is a knight and a noble. As JonCon states, knights and nobles look down on archers and don't watch them closely.

Furthermore, the topic of the thread is how Jorah shapes his answers to try to get into Dany's pants.

2) Nope. Essosi composite bows, the same desciption as for the Dothraki ones. Furthermore, infantry bows are always better than horse bows, given the same level of technology.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Jorah is a knight and a noble. As JonCon states, knights and nobles look down on archers and don't watch them closely.

Furthermore, the topic of the thread is how Jorah shapes his answers to try to get into Dany's pants.

2) Nope. Essosi composite bows, the same desciption as for the Dothraki ones. Furthermore, infantry bows are always better than horse bows, given the same level of technology.

The snobbishness descibed doesnt really fit with jorahs personality though nor northmen in general esp one from a poor island who now been a lowly merc + wanted criminal for years

The question is though does he? at this stage we dont know if he even loves her yet and he sure as hell isnt trying to just bang her given hes just met her and shes now promised to the dohtraki lord whos 40k khalassar hes riding in, thats guaranteed suicide esp given they dont seem to respect privacy enough to get tappin that alone.

At this stage I think hes just saying yeah the dothraki have some good points militarily ...but wont say ''good luck getting them across the sea or following ur fuck up brother''

2) composite bow is just a description of a particular type of bow and 'better' is a relative term

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The entire thread is about Jorah shaping his answers. If he is coloring ten points to make the Dothraki look good (and he does, just look at the first page), I'm going to assume that the eleventh point is the same.

Composite bows are a way to construct bows, not a type as such. Better is a relative term indeed, and I did mention "same level of technology".

[WSmith84]

The entire thread is about Jorah shaping his answers. If he is coloring ten points to make the Dothraki look good (and he does, just look at the first page), I'm going to assume that the eleventh point is the same.

Composite bows are a way to construct bows, not a type as such. Better is a relative term indeed, and I did mention "same level of technology".

Also isn't 'same level of technology' actually a bit generous when describing the Dothraki? They, and Essos in general, seem to lag behind Westeros substantially. I don't know if this extends to their bows, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[hodorisfaclessman]

The entire thread is about Jorah shaping his answers. If he is coloring ten points to make the Dothraki look good (and he does, just look at the first page), I'm going to assume that the eleventh point is the same.

Composite bows are a way to construct bows, not a type as such. Better is a relative term indeed, and I did mention "same level of technology".

Hes adding a lotta buts and maybes but thats true of any force esp one so specialized .

Yes and theres various different types made by different cultures worldwide , we know westerosi dont tend to use them as they are based more on western medieval model . Jon con says the eastern type so both jorah and jon con could be correct in that the westerosi bows are generaly better range than most eastern recurve ones but not specificaly the type the dohraki use.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Maybe they don't contradict each other, Jorah talks about range, Connington talks about overall quality. Besides, are these dothraki? Do they even use dothraki made bows? Maybe many cultures use different curved bows, like in real life.

If they hadn't cut the quote off, you'd see that JonCon was too.

A third of Balaq's men used crossbows, another third the double-curved horn-and-sinew bows of the east. Better than these were the big yew longbows borne by the archers of Westerosi blood, and best of all were the great bows of goldenheart treasured by Black Balaq himself and his fifty Summer Islanders. Only a dragonbone bow could outrange one made of goldenheart. Whatever bow they carried, all of Balaq's men were sharp-eyed, seasoned veterans who had proved their worth in a hundred battles, raids, and skirmishes. They proved it again at Griffin's Roost.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Also isn't 'same level of technology' actually a bit generous when describing the Dothraki? They, and Essos in general, seem to lag behind Westeros substantially. I don't know if this extends to their bows, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Essos in general actualy seems ahead of westeros a little (bar the salvers bay part)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Essos in general actualy seems ahead of westeros a little (bar the salvers bay part)

If you are talking about non-military subjects, yes.

But not in any military way. Probably because they didn't advance between the rise and the Doom of Valyria, dragons doing all the heavy lifting.

[hodorisfaclessman]

If you are talking about non-military subjects, yes.

But not in any military way. Probably because they didn't advance between the rise and the Doom of Valyria, dragons doing all the heavy lifting.

They arm large swathes of merc forces in the exact same way as westerosi forces do in fact we are specificaly told the finest castle forged steel weapons in westeros arent as good as what qohor can produce and they alone can reforge valyrian steel...tech wise militarily they arent behind westeros in the slightest.

[The_lost_arryn19]

You're right in some aspects but you are completely downplaying the deadliness of the man shooting a now on horse. History has proved countless times that some of the best equipped, best trained, and even largest armies can be compwltely destroyed by a large amount of

Mounted bowmen. Especially mounted bowmen with the fierceness and the training of the dothraki. I have no doubt in my mind that the only way a westerosi army could beat a dothraki horde on the field is with a brilliant commander and a over strong khal who tries to use brute force.

Also I want to ask when did bittersteel ever curbstomp unsullied? I'm pretty sure tactically speakin the unsullied are almost the equivalent of spartan hoplites in asoiaf and while they can be taken advantage of considering that they are foot soldiers; it is not easy. The only way to break unsullied is to hit their flanks when they are busy fighting to the front.

To add on also most westerosi armies are rabble. They are peasants levied to hold pitchforks and the knights and lords may be able to hold up in castles but that would mean nothing to the dothraki. They would rape, burn, and slaughter every village in westeros excluding the north and Dorne depending where they land of course.

To all those talking about the late Romans you need to be corrected. First off marcus aurelias was not a commander he was a ruler who relied on military men. Secondly the Huns fought one of romes greatest generals; a guy called in history "the last of the Romans" and his name was flavius aetius. While he didn't really have the roman armies Caesar had or scipio because they had well trained Italians in their armies; flavius had a army completely of barbarians who were forced to enter the military or get kicked out of rome. This was one of the major reasons rome got taken over after atius was betrayed by his emperor. No other commanders had the respect of the barbarians.

[Universal Sword Donor]

They arm large swathes of merc forces in the exact same way as westerosi forces do in fact we are specificaly told the finest castle forged steel weapons in westeros arent as good as what qohor can produce and they alone can reforge valyrian steel...tech wise militarily they arent behind westeros in the slightest.

And they don't really have any generals or commanders to lead the fighting (at least on land). They rely on mercs for all their fighting. Look at the menagerie that's besieging Mereen. The Volantene commanders *might* be more. Even if the tech is equal, their track record isn't exactly stellar when it comes to fighting versus Westeros.

Also FWIW, the same source that said Qohorik steel is better than anything in Westeros also says that “the forges of Lordsport produce swords, axes, ringmail, and plate second to none." So there is clearly some wiggle room and/or some contradictory stuff. Tobho Mott might also take umbrage at your statement that only Qohorik can reforge Valyrian steel.

[Nihlus]

They arm large swathes of merc forces in the exact same way as westerosi forces do in fact we are specificaly told the finest castle forged steel weapons in westeros arent as good as what qohor can produce and they alone can reforge valyrian steel...tech wise militarily they arent behind westeros in the slightest.

I don't think it's any coincidence that those mercenary forces utilized by the Free Cities are primarily of Westerosi descent, fighting in a Westerosi manner, and being supplemented by Westerosi exiles. Besides this, the cities just maintain city watches and no other military forces. The exceptions to this are Volantis, which trains its own slave soldiers, and Qohor, which uses the Unsullied. Also Lorath, I think.

Further east, we also have the states of Astapor, Yunkai, Meereen, Tolos, Mantarys, Elyria, the Dothraki khalasars, the Ibbenese, Qarth, New Ghis, and the now-destroyed kingdom of Sarnor. ALL of them are stuck somewhere between the Iron Age and the Bronze Age. Bronze armor, slingers, hoplites, barely-trained dreg armies, lack of widespread effective armor, freaking chariots... they simply don't measure up. Just look at what a mess the Battle of Meereen is, and how terrifyingly effective a few thousand Ironborn raiders appear to be.

Also, I consider "Essos" to end at Qarth and Vaes Dothrak. Everything east of those two settlements is a mystery. We simply have too little information about what's beyond to judge them.

You're right in some aspects but you are completely downplaying the deadliness of the man shooting a now on horse. History has proved countless times that some of the best equipped, best trained, and even largest armies can be compwltely destroyed by a large amount of

Mounted bowmen. Especially mounted bowmen with the fierceness and the training of the dothraki. I have no doubt in my mind that the only way a westerosi army could beat a dothraki horde on the field is with a brilliant commander and a over strong khal who tries to use brute force.

Also I want to ask when did bittersteel ever curbstomp unsullied? I'm pretty sure tactically speakin the unsullied are almost the equivalent of spartan hoplites in asoiaf and while they can be taken advantage of considering that they are foot soldiers; it is not easy. The only way to break unsullied is to hit their flanks when they are busy fighting to the front.

To add on also most westerosi armies are rabble. They are peasants levied to hold pitchforks and the knights and lords may be able to hold up in castles but that would mean nothing to the dothraki. They would rape, burn, and slaughter every village in westeros excluding the north and Dorne depending where they land of course.

To all those talking about the late Romans you need to be corrected. First off marcus aurelias was not a commander he was a ruler who relied on military men. Secondly the Huns fought one of romes greatest generals; a guy called in history "the last of the Romans" and his name was flavius aetius. While he didn't really have the roman armies Caesar had or scipio because they had well trained Italians in their armies; flavius had a army completely of barbarians who were forced to enter the military or get kicked out of rome. This was one of the major reasons rome got taken over after atius was betrayed by his emperor. No other commanders had the respect of the barbarians.

One, not all the Dothraki have bows. Two, horse archers are extremely overrated. You need only look at the number of times the European kingdoms curb-stomped armored and trained light cavalry/horse archer forces in flat, open terrain across the Middle Ages to understand that (e.g. Arsuf, and that was a ragtag 12th century army!). Three, forget about the unarmored, undisciplined, underarmed, poorly led Dothraki having any chance. Believe it or not, being immune to your enemy's weapons is actually really useful. And the Dothraki, using slashing swords and hunting bows, are basically made to fail against Westerosi pikemen and bowmen in mail and padded jacks. To say nothing of the knights.

Bittersteel sacked Qohor in response to Qohor failing to honor a contract. Qohor, if you remember, is where 3,000 Unsullied stopped 20,000 Dothraki, the Dothraki being down a few thousand men since the battle on the previous day. This happened 100 years before Aegon's conquest. Ever since then, Qohor's army has been made up entirely of Unsullied, excepting perhaps certain support units. It didn't matter. The Westerosi exiles under Aegor Rivers still wrecked them, around 300 years after that battle with the Dothraki.

Your assessment of the Westerosi armies is completely wrong, and disregards the words of both Jorah Mormont (who, even in all his BSing, unwittingly admitted Westerosi troops were well equipped and highly trained professionals) and Eddard Stark (who said that the forces of the Warden of the East could crush 100,000 Dothraki, no problem). This myth needs to die. See:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros-updated-and-psa-regarding-troop-quality/

[hodorisfaclessman]

And they don't really have any generals or commanders to lead the fighting (at least on land). They rely on mercs for all their fighting. Look at the menagerie that's besieging Mereen. The Volantene commanders *might* be more. Even if the tech is equal, their track record isn't exactly stellar when it comes to fighting versus Westeros.

Also FWIW, the same source that said Qohorik steel is better than anything in Westeros also says that “the forges of Lordsport produce swords, axes, ringmail, and plate second to none." So there is clearly some wiggle room and/or some contradictory stuff. Tobho Mott might also take umbrage at your statement that only Qohorik can reforge Valyrian steel.

We havent really seen all their commanders though , and my point was tech wise they are at least on par with westeros

and bear in mind the latter middle ages those merc companies are what started to rule the battle fields.

2nd to none in westeros but point taken , and tobho mott learned his craft in qohor

[Bright Blue Eyes]

They arm large swathes of merc forces in the exact same way as westerosi forces do in fact we are specificaly told the finest castle forged steel weapons in westeros arent as good as what qohor can produce and they alone can reforge valyrian steel...tech wise militarily they arent behind westeros in the slightest.

Sort of. The mercenaries being predominantly Westerosi to start with, and the rest is just copied from Westeros.

Metalurgy isn't military per se. Tactics, strategy, organization, those are the strictly military topics.

You're right in some aspects but you are completely downplaying the deadliness of the man shooting a now on horse. History has proved countless times that some of the best equipped, best trained, and even largest armies can be compwltely destroyed by a large amount of

Mounted bowmen. Especially mounted bowmen with the fierceness and the training of the dothraki. I have no doubt in my mind that the only way a westerosi army could beat a dothraki horde on the field is with a brilliant commander and a over strong khal who tries to use brute force.

Also I want to ask when did bittersteel ever curbstomp unsullied? I'm pretty sure tactically speakin the unsullied are almost the equivalent of spartan hoplites in asoiaf and while they can be taken advantage of considering that they are foot soldiers; it is not easy. The only way to break unsullied is to hit their flanks when they are busy fighting to the front.

To add on also most westerosi armies are rabble. They are peasants levied to hold pitchforks and the knights and lords may be able to hold up in castles but that would mean nothing to the dothraki. They would rape, burn, and slaughter every village in westeros excluding the north and Dorne depending where they land of course.

To all those talking about the late Romans you need to be corrected. First off marcus aurelias was not a commander he was a ruler who relied on military men. Secondly the Huns fought one of romes greatest generals; a guy called in history "the last of the Romans" and his name was flavius aetius. While he didn't really have the roman armies Caesar had or scipio because they had well trained Italians in their armies; flavius had a army completely of barbarians who were forced to enter the military or get kicked out of rome. This was one of the major reasons rome got taken over after atius was betrayed by his emperor. No other commanders had the respect of the barbarians.

No. Simply no.

Nihlus already linked the relevant thread, please read it.

[TerrorVoid]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros-updated-and-psa-regarding-troop-quality/

OMG, not this BS thread....

On topic. Don't overrate westerossian infrantry. They ARE levies, not matter how hard some guys have reached the conclusion that they are not. But whole idea behind levies is their low skill requirements. You don't need to be taught your entire life to stick a pike with proper end.