hodorisfaclessman Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I don't think it's any coincidence that those mercenary forces utilized by the Free Cities are primarily of Westerosi descent, fighting in a Westerosi manner, and being supplemented by Westerosi exiles. The exceptions to this are Volantis, which trains its own slave soldiers, and Qohor, which uses the Unsullied. Further east, we also have the states of Astapor, Yunkai, Meereen, Tolos, Mantarys, Elyria, the Dothraki khalasars, Qarth, New Ghis, and the now-extinct Sarnor. ALL of them are stuck somewhere between the Iron Age and the Bronze Age. Bronze armor, slingers, hoplites, barely-trained dreg armies, lack of widespread effective armor, freaking chariots... they simply don't measure up. Just look at what a mess the Battle of Meereen is, and how terrifyingly effective a few thousand Ironborn raiders appear to be. There are westerosi ( along with other regions) exiles among them but they seem to be largely essos born and bred and their weaponry forged there The east seems a mix but the chariots are from an age ago (one with steel it clearly says too) armour is less common but it does seem to be a much warmer climate there too. and bear in mind a few thousand ironborn suddenly suprising forces has been effective all over westeros too from the north to the shield islands to lannisport . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 You can have a levy consisting 100% of knights... If I ever hear about pikemen being untrained again I'll have to scream. Three months of drill at least, and that's with a whole bunch of veteran "NCOs" to show the newbies how it's done, no landsknecht or reisläufer colonel would settle for less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Sort of. The mercenaries being predominantly Westerosi to start with, and the rest is just copied from Westeros. Metalurgy isn't military per se. Tactics, strategy, organization, those are the strictly military topics. Actualy we know westerosi exiles and people from all over join the companies but outcide of the golden companies officer corps it seems to be largely native population military tech is at least on par if not greater was my point tactics wise we know they can field large forces that fight just like their westerosi counterparts. strategy is really down to whos leading them orgainization too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 We havent really seen all their commanders though , and my point was tech wise they are at least on par with westeros and bear in mind the latter middle ages those merc companies are what started to rule the battle fields. 2nd to none in westeros but point taken , and tobho mott learned his craft in qohor No. The whole quote just ends at 2nd to none. That's the *exact* same phrasing as Qohor's entry. And it really doesn't matter where Tobho Mott learned his skills. He's not in Qohor, so the statement that only Qohorik know how to reforge Valyrian steel is false. OMG, not this BS thread.... On topic. Don't overrate westerossian infrantry. They ARE levies, not matter how hard some guys have reached the conclusion that they are not. But whole idea behind levies is their low skill requirements. You don't need to be taught your entire life to stick a pike with proper end. Notice how he doesn't say they were professional fighters or anything like that? He was just merely dismissing the idea that levies are "peasants with pitchforks". You don't need to be taught or practice for your entire life to know which is the pointy end, but it is helpful if you don't want to die. These guys have expensive gear and are expected to march in times of war. Even if they hate their liege lords, it's practicing something that will hopefully keep you alive. I know I'd prefer not to die thousands of miles from home and waste a good chunk of my family's wealth or property if it could be avoided. It's not all about fighting either. They have clearly practiced moving in battle formations -- we see northern spearmen do that at Green Fork -- and that takes a fair amount of practice. It's not a simple shield wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorVoid Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 You can have a levy consisting 100% of knights... If I ever hear about pikemen being untrained again I'll have to scream. Three months of drill at least, and that's with a whole bunch of veteran "NCOs" to show the newbies how it's done, no landsknecht or reisläufer colonel would settle for less. 3 months of drill=untrained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Actualy we know westerosi exiles and people from all over join the companies but outcide of the golden companies officer corps it seems to be largely native population military tech is at least on par if not greater was my point tactics wise we know they can field large forces that fight just like their westerosi counterparts. strategy is really down to whos leading them orgainization too. Second Sons, the company Oberyn founded, half the founding members of the Windblown were Westerosi... 3 months of drill=untrained. Damn, are our modern militaries untrained... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 3 months of drill=untrained. US Army Basic Training is 10 weeks plus whatever you get for your specialty. IIRC infantry tacks on another month. Marines are 12. So the soldiers sent to Iraq and Afghanistan (or hell anywhere) were untrained by your standards. And those were professional soldiers. Hell I'm pretty sure OCS is only 3 months. Not only are the grunts untrained, so are the men leading them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 No. The whole quote just ends at 2nd to none. That's the *exact* same phrasing as Qohor's entry. And it really doesn't matter where Tobho Mott learned his skills. He's not in Qohor, so the statement that only Qohorik know how to reforge Valyrian steel is false. Ok but the qohor entry says superior to even the finest castle forged steel in westeros , so that would either mean the ironborn are the finest metalworlers in all of westeros equal to the qhohor ones or that 2nd to none meant that nowhere in westeros is better ........either way its getting away from the point being that essos produces weapons + armour just as well as westeros Ok so just in qhohor and with tobho mott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Second Sons, the company Oberyn founded, half the founding members of the Windblown were Westerosi... ''The Second Sons are amongst the oldest of the free companies. They do not enjoy the shining reputation of the Golden Company, but they have won some famous victories. Four hundred years ago the Second Sons stood in defense of Qohor along with'' erm the viper only served a year by tyrions reading of the little sign up sheet, if the viper started them up hes a highlander as they are over 400 years old dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Ok but the qohor entry says superior to even the finest castle forged steel in westeros , so that would either mean the ironborn are the finest metalworlers in all of westeros equal to the qhohor ones or that 2nd to none meant that nowhere in westeros is better ........either way its getting away from the point being that essos produces weapons + armour just as well as westeros Ok so just in qhohor and with tobho mott No it really just shows the worldbook has contradictory and incomplete information. Hell just the section about Elia and her children's "deaths" kinda shows that. There's really no reason, imo, to assume either is ahead of each other when it comes to metallurgy, especially given what little we know about forging Valryian steel seems to be almost entirely arcane and magical in nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 ''The Second Sons are amongst the oldest of the free companies. They do not enjoy the shining reputation of the Golden Company, but they have won some famous victories. Four hundred years ago the Second Sons stood in defense of Qohor along with'' erm the viper only served a year by tyrions reading of the little sign up sheet, if the viper started them up hes a highlander as they are over 400 years old dude Don't confuse the Second Sons with the company Oberyn founded after he left the Second Sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 ''The Second Sons are amongst the oldest of the free companies. They do not enjoy the shining reputation of the Golden Company, but they have won some famous victories. Four hundred years ago the Second Sons stood in defense of Qohor along with'' erm the viper only served a year by tyrions reading of the little sign up sheet, if the viper started them up hes a highlander as they are over 400 years old dude He rode with the second sons and then created his own company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 No it really just shows the worldbook has contradictory and incomplete information. Hell just the section about Elia and her children's "deaths" kinda shows that. There's really no reason, imo, to assume either is ahead of each other when it comes to metallurgy, especially given what little we know about forging Valryian steel seems to be almost entirely arcane and magical in nature. could be or perhaps they just meant to highlight that the ironborn metalworkers despite the islands poverty were as good as any in westeros who knows yes it seems an odd way to make metal but il guess we'l never know as the last books wont go into it.......im assuming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle Pup From Astapor Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 If they hadn't cut the quote off, you'd see that JonCon was too. A third of Balaq's men used crossbows, another third the double-curved horn-and-sinew bows of the east. Better than these were the big yew longbows borne by the archers of Westerosi blood, and best of all were the great bows of goldenheart treasured by Black Balaq himself and his fifty Summer Islanders. Only a dragonbone bow could outrange one made of goldenheart. Whatever bow they carried, all of Balaq's men were sharp-eyed, seasoned veterans who had proved their worth in a hundred battles, raids, and skirmishes. They proved it again at Griffin's Roost. I don't know, I actually checked the book before that post because I too felt that maybe the quote isn't full, but that sentence doesn't imply that he's only comparing range of all these bows. I mean, it would be silly if he's saying "better" but only comparing range. Penetrating force matters far more when it comes to bows, and in that particular situation (they were shooting birds) accuracy matters most of all. Realistically, it would be nothing strange if dothraki bows can shoot further, because longbow arrows can weigh a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Don't confuse the Second Sons with the company Oberyn founded after he left the Second Sons. you said the second sons dude , also i cant find anything to say half the new company he founded were westerosi exiled knights given their relative wealth,education (even a poor knight is richer than a essos peasant) and skills and weaponry are prob much more likely to found a company or be a rising star in one than some local peasant but id say the bulk of the ordinary sellswords/foot there in the merc companies are native essosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 He rode with the second sons and then created his own company. yeah the other guy said ''Second Sons, the company Oberyn founded, half the founding members of the Windblown were Westeros'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I don't know, I actually checked the book before that post because I too felt that maybe the quote isn't full, but that sentence doesn't imply that he's only comparing range of all these bows. I mean, it would be silly if he's saying "better" but only comparing range. Penetrating force matters far more when it comes to bows, and in that particular situation (they were shooting birds) accuracy matters most of all. Realistically, it would be nothing strange if dothraki bows can shoot further, because longbow arrows can weigh a lot. I agree but range is clearly something he's considering. It's the only thing he calls out explicitly. And from the world book be know that goldenheart bows outrange pretty much any other non dragonbone bow. So it's kind of natural to look at that list as crossbow < essosi < longbow < goldenheart in terms of range AND quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle Pup From Astapor Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I tried to explain that above: The Dothraki use the civilian version of arrows. They fly further from the same bow, but have trouble punching through wet paper (exxagerated). JonCon talks about military arrows. Heavier, stiffer, way more impact, but don't fly as far. We don't know what arrows dothraki use, arrows could differ quite a bit among different types of composite bows. Mongol arrows seem to be qutie a bit bigger than turk or tartar ones, for example. But in principle I think you are probably right. Some of the bigger longbows need very long, very heavy arrows, otherwise they simply break on release, you can't shoot a light arrow from the same bow. You could in theory shoot the same heavy arrow from a composite bow if it's big enough, but that probably wouldn't be practical for a horse archer, their bows are small. Then again, IIRC dothraki are pretty big people as a race, maybe they use relatively big composite bows, compared to mongols and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 yeah the other guy said ''Second Sons, the company Oberyn founded, half the founding members of the Windblown were Westeros'' You realize that's a list right? As in: 1) Second Sons 2) Company Oberyn founded 3) 1/2 the windowblown yaddah yaddah He didn't say second sons, the company oberyn founded, were westerosi or anything to indicate that he thought Oberyn founded them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I agree but range is clearly something he's considering. It's the only thing he calls out explicitly. And from the world book be know that goldenheart bows outrange pretty much any other non dragonbone bow. So it's kind of natural to look at that list as crossbow < essosi < longbow < goldenheart in terms of range AND quality. true but again he may mean eastern essosi recurve as a general term with different types for different cultures(as in real life) and maybe the dothraki happen to use a type with more range than the adverage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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