R+L=J v.140

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Is there anything to suggest how close was Rhaego to normal delivery at that dramatic day? Was Rhaego premature?

We just had the question (maybe it was some other thread though) and @Rhaenys_Targaryen answered, Rhaego was most probably carried out to term because of:

"My time is near," Dany said.

61 Daenerys VII

"Haggo, tell them Khal Drogo commanded the halt. If any ask why, say to them that my time is near and I could not continue.

64 Daenerys VIII

Although the second one is a white lie, the first one in Dany VII isn't, so she has carried to term, or at least she believes she has.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is there anything to suggest how close was Rhaego to normal delivery at that dramatic day? Was Rhaego premature?

According to Dany, her time was near, when Mirri was taken into service. A week, perhaps two, pass until the day of Rhaego's birth, as Drogo receives his poultice that same day apparently, and is supposed to keep it on for ten days, which he doesn't do. When Dany gives birth, it has been six days since he tore the poultice off.

So it doesn't seem that the length of pregnancy was shorter than normally would be the case.

[Lord Varys]

Hm. If the first AGoT chapters would take place in 297 AC couldn't then Ned's wedding have been in the last months of 282 AC? After all, if I'm not mistaken then we take the numbers from the appendix from AGoT and add 15 years, am I correct? But we don't have any confirmation in the text when actually AGoT begins.

I imagine Dany was in the eighth month of her pregnancy. Her time was near but not yet there. The birth itself is clearly triggered by magic/stress not by the fact that she overdue. However, Rhaego could easily have survived the birth under normal circumstances. I was born two weeks early. No harm done.

[SFDanny]

The point of my question whether 298 AC is actually the beginning of AGoT aims at the question that we, to my knowledge, only know that AGoT covers about a year but don't know if the book actually begins in the beginning (that is in the first month/week) of 298. Couldn't it set in late in 297 AC or somewhere in the first half of 298 AC?

Jon's death takes place a fortnight after Joffrey's 12th name day celebration. It looks like Joffrey's name day is sometime around the second month, judging by the comet. So, the arrival of the news of Jon's death, and the start of the story in the Winterfell line of events, in late February or early March is a good guess.

Is there anything to suggest how close was Rhaego to normal delivery at that dramatic day? Was Rhaego premature?

According to Dany, her time was near, when Mirri was taken into service. A week, perhaps two, pass until the day of Rhaego's birth, as Drogo receives his poultice that same day apparently, and is supposed to keep it on for ten days, which he doesn't do. When Dany gives birth, it has been six days since he tore the poultice off.

So it doesn't seem that the length of pregnancy was shorter than normally would be the case.

Actually we know the labor is early, but we don't know by how much. The quote you allude to, RT, tells us her time is near, but the app tells us "At the same time, Daenerys goes into labor too early." (Daenerys Targaryen entry ASoI&F app.) Some time in the eighth month of pregnancy is a good bet. We are talking weeks early at most, not a month or more.

[SFDanny]

Hm. If the first AGoT chapters would take place in 297 AC couldn't then Ned's wedding have been in the last months of 282 AC? After all, if I'm not mistaken then we take the numbers from the appendix from AGoT and add 15 years, am I correct? But we don't have any confirmation in the text when actually AGoT begins.

I imagine Dany was in the eighth month of her pregnancy. Her time was near but not yet there. The birth itself is clearly triggered by magic/stress not by the fact that she overdue. However, Rhaego could easily have survived the birth under normal circumstances. I was born two weeks early. No harm done.

The chapter in which Catelyn recalls her wedding being fifteen years ago takes place after the King's party arrives in Winterfell. It is well into 298. We are talking April or May as the most likely timeframe. So, no, the fact the prologue or maybe a chapter or two of the Daenerys storyline could have happened in 297 has nothing to do with when Ned's and Catelyn's wedding takes place.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hm. If the first AGoT chapters would take place in 297 AC couldn't then Ned's wedding have been in the last months of 282 AC? After all, if I'm not mistaken then we take the numbers from the appendix from AGoT and add 15 years, am I correct? But we don't have any confirmation in the text when actually AGoT begins.

I imagine Dany was in the eighth month of her pregnancy. Her time was near but not yet there. The birth itself is clearly triggered by magic/stress not by the fact that she overdue. However, Rhaego could easily have survived the birth under normal circumstances. I was born two weeks early. No harm done.

No, not really... I figured I explained it quite clearly above...

Bran I is the first chapter in the main storyline. Catelyn I, the next chapter, takes place on the same day, and Catelyn there tells us that Jon Arryn has died. Jon Arryn died a fortnight after Joffrey's birthday, and Joffrey has just turned twelve. Joffrey turns twelve in 298 AC, so what does that tell you? Exactly what I said, that the main storyline in Westeros, starting from Bran I, starts off in 298 AC.

The Prologue seems to take place in 297 AC, as we have Sansa remembering mid-298 AC that she had met the Royces two years past (so mid-296) on their way to drop Waymar Royce off at the Wall, and in the Prologue, Waymar has been at the Wall for half a year. Taking into account that the Royces stayed at Winterfell for a while (Sansa remembers Waymar's father and her own father going hunting together and such), and that they needed to travel from Winterfell to the Wall (without haste, of course), adding another six months or so, places us some time in early 297 AC.

For Dany's arc it is quite impossible to state whether Dany 1 and Dany 2 take place in 297 AC or 298 AC. But that doesn't influence the date of Ned and Catelyn's wedding, as Catelyn states that it has been 15 years since her wedding in Catelyn I, and Catelyn I definitly takes place in 298 AC.

[Lord Varys]

Oh, yeah, with Joff's birthday in mind it makes sense. He would have to be 14 at his death had he been born late in the year.

[Mithras]

Hm. If the first AGoT chapters would take place in 297 AC couldn't then Ned's wedding have been in the last months of 282 AC? After all, if I'm not mistaken then we take the numbers from the appendix from AGoT and add 15 years, am I correct? But we don't have any confirmation in the text when actually AGoT begins.

I imagine Dany was in the eighth month of her pregnancy. Her time was near but not yet there. The birth itself is clearly triggered by magic/stress not by the fact that she overdue. However, Rhaego could easily have survived the birth under normal circumstances. I was born two weeks early. No harm done.

Rhaego was a typical malformed Targ baby, so he would not survive longer than Visenya or Laena's last child. That means the vision in the HotU (Rhaego razing a city) is not a possible future but something metaphorical.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know that. Magic could have malformed him during the ritual, or his death caused by the ritual could have activated latent magical dragon disfiguring genes. Rhaego was alive in the womb prior to the ritual, after all, which suggests that his deformations did not kill him.

It may be that a mother's stress and the like can cause her child to develop deformations - perhaps Rhaenyra's Visenya was a milder version of Rhaego (that is, a child that was killed/deformed by the stress Rhaenyra suffered after she learned about her father's death).

We don't know how dragonlord deformation works exactly in the womb but the general magical nature of it all allows a lot of possibilities. My guess for Rhaego is that he was perfectly healthy until the ritual which both caused/activated his deformations and drained his life energy to heal Drogo.

In fact, perhaps Rhaego's essence was completely transferred to Drogo which could also explain why Drogo had no personality afterwards.

[Mithras]

We don't know that. Magic could have malformed him during the ritual, or his death caused by the ritual could have activated latent magical dragon disfiguring genes. Rhaego was alive in the womb prior to the ritual, after all, which suggests that his deformations did not kill him.

It may be that a mother's stress and the like can cause her child to develop deformations - perhaps Rhaenyra's Visenya was a milder version of Rhaego (that is, a child that was killed/deformed by the stress Rhaenyra suffered after she learned about her father's death).

We don't know how dragonlord deformation works exactly in the womb but the general magical nature of it all allows a lot of possibilities. My guess for Rhaego is that he was perfectly healthy until the ritual which both caused/activated his deformations and drained his life energy to heal Drogo.

In fact, perhaps Rhaego's essence was completely transferred to Drogo which could also explain why Drogo had no personality afterwards.

Surely, Rhaego didnot grow wings and scales instantly. Compare his supposed description to those of Visenya and Laena's child. They are the same. Rhaego was alive in the womb but malformed babies are not dead.

No, the horse's essence was transferred to Drogo. Rhaego had nothing to do with the ritual. That is one of the greatest misconceptions about MMD. She didnot kill Rhaego but she subtly manipulated Dany into believing that the ritual killed the baby so that Dany would always feel pain and regret over it. MMD's revenge was extremely well calculated. She destroyed Drogo but left the killing to Dany as well, which multiplied her pain and misery.

[Alia of the knife]

Is there any reason to think that a "true" Dragon might be in its truest form in the womb, and it's not a deformation?

Might Jon have possibly looked like that?

[Mladen]

Is there any reason to think that a "true" Dragon might be in its truest form in the womb, and it's not a deformation?

Might Jon have possibly looked like that?

I am firm believer that all of that is just the genetic malformation which couldn't be explained by the medical care provided so they invented "birth of baby dragons" stories. No different than how many babies with such condition has been welcomed to the world in medieval ages.

[Mithras]

Is there any reason to think that a "true" Dragon might be in its truest form in the womb, and it's not a deformation?

Might Jon have possibly looked like that?

I do not think so but the weird draconian features of the Valyrians (or at least the dragonlord families) are result of their sick bloodmagic practices. I always assumed that they transfused reptile blood to themselves but the World Book went even further and suggested that the Valyrians might have literally mated with beasts to have those genes. It is said that the Valyrian bloodmages mated slave women with beasts in Gogossos to produce monstrous offspring. In the close neighborhood of that place, we have half human half beast races of men. This clearly suggests that those men are the results of their failed experiments (or rather early versions of what they attempted). Lizard-men (compare it to the scales of Rhaego), eyeless cave dwellers (Rhaego was eyeless) can be found in Sothoryos (they were driven away by the Brindled Men who have the features of Brindled Wyverns living nearby). Beyond the Five Forts, there are are winged men (compare it to the wings of Rhaego) and Shrykes (very similar to the lizard-men).

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

if magic is involved, everything can happen. And magic was involved there. If the Targaryen dragon babies come from the fact that the Targaryens and all other dragonlord descendants carry a 'magical dragon gene' that is also responsible for the dragonriding stuff then we really don't know what magic can do if it connects/interferes with the magical dragon gene.

In fact, there may actually be actually a factual basis for Aerion and Aerys' 'mad belief' that they can physically transform into a dragon. Rhaego and the other babies did, at least partially, and magic could actually pull this off. If the Targaryens are partially dragon, then they may actually be able to shed their human side entirely if the conditions are right just as Dany was able to hatch dragon eggs under right conditions.

My best idea for the 'stone beast breathing shadow fire' is a Targaryen-blooded individual suffering from greyscale (Aegon in the future, Shireen) being inadvertently turned into creature half-man half-dragon in a (failed?) magical attempt to save him/her.

Shireen is very good candidate for that as would be Aegon (or somebody else) in the south as Jon Connington most certainly will bring the grey plague to Westeros.

Whatever the dragonlords did to themselves it is magical in nature. Only magic would allow them to merge humans and animals - and themselves and dragons. It could be something as mundane as a bloodbath, it could be a woman mating with a dragon during some magical ritual, it could be some sort of ritualistic devouring - a dragon eaten by a human, and a human eaten by a dragon in return. The possibilities there are endless but they clearly had a lasting effect at least in the purer dragonlord bloodlines.

As to Mirri:

Dany herself realizes that Rhaego was the sacrifice for Drogo. That is all over the place it is not an idea fed to her by Mirri. Dany realizes that the horse isn't important, and she also knows that Rhaego is dead/annihilated when she awakes. If the horse served a purpose then most likely to summon the spirits/demon who worked the spell but the price was Rhaego.

[Mithras]

if magic is involved, everything can happen.

Nope. This is not Harry Potter.

Drogo was clearly like a horse. The only effect of magic on Rhaego should be the decomposition, which was due to entering the tent.

Reread carefully. MMD avoids confirming that the sacrifice of Rhaego was an ingredient in that spell.

[Avalatis]

Nope. This is not Harry Potter.

Drogo was clearly like a horse. The only effect of magic on Rhaego should be the decomposition, which was due to entering the tent.

Reread carefully. MMD avoids confirming that the sacrifice of Rhaego was an ingredient in that spell.

Interesting perception of events. But what is more likely? That she wanted to make certain the "Stallion who would mount the world" could never do so or that she intentionally wants to piss off Dany who never did any harm to her (but could do so now). I don't follow the rational for why she would go out of her way to make certain Dany would kill her.

This discussion does seem to deviate from the purpose of this thread though.

I agree with "magic did it" is not a good answer.

[IceFire125]

Hmm, I find it odd that GRRM put these lines in...

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger … he could feel it.

**Jon wanted so much not to be a bastard anymore, he truly hungers to be a Stark. Then it's reveal that he was hungry because he was one with Ghost, who was close enough for him to sense the direwolf feeling hungry. Yet, notice the 'dragonglass' word, it's a descriptive word. GRRM could put something else, like, 'sharp as fresh carved steel blade', or 'sharp as a Valyrian blade', and the point will still be made across. I think GRRM wants to feed us something so cryptic our minds have yet to be awakened at this time in the series (during book 3), suspecting Jon being truly dragon blood, argued to have true 'dragonglass' in its substance.

Because in ADWD, GRRM insert these lines in...

She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

**Okay, before it was decided that AFFC/ADWD were to be two books, it reminds us that this is where we find out the words 'dragonglass', 'frozen fire/obsidian' and 'glass candles' are practically the same. They came from magic and form by the essence of Fire and Blood. Here we see that people can go into people's dreams, talk to them and see across vast lands (sights from far away). What are the chances that within Jon's mixture of blood, it could lead him to have moments of glimpses into far away places, where dragons are (specifically, where Dany's dragons are or could it be something about the future). Because in the text, Jon was not sleeping/dreaming while talking to Val. It can be argued that he was just thinking that, but we're already inside Jon's mind at this time. I think GRRM wanted to give us more sublime hints, that we feel as natural not to think it as important, but it's actually is, that inside Jon's blood, are true substance of magical dragon blood (magical dragonglass substance). This is the key purpose of the dragonlords of old Valyria to want and continue to make pure by intermarrying, because those magical properties inside their blood have are susceptible attributes to dragon binding. And remember, it says, 'Dragons again', meaning, Jon had multiple moments of these glimpses of dragons flying moments, while awake. The word 'again' here is key, because just like when Mel was looking into the flames, we learn that she saw Jon before.. That it was not the first time (like in her chapter) that we learn that she sees him every time. But GRRM will not keep writing it again and again, it would lead to more attention from us to think that something is definitely going on with Jon having these glimpses of dragons. Now it would be even crazier for Jon to have moments of visions (if we replace it for 'glimpse') of the future, that I think only happened in his dreams, not while he is awake.

[Alia of the knife]

I do not think so but the weird draconian features of the Valyrians (or at least the dragonlord families) are result of their sick bloodmagic practices. I always assumed that they transfused reptile blood to themselves but the World Book went even further and suggested that the Valyrians might have literally mated with beasts to have those genes. It is said that the Valyrian bloodmages mated slave women with beasts in Gogossos to produce monstrous offspring. In the close neighborhood of that place, we have half human half beast races of men. This clearly suggests that those men are the results of their failed experiments (or rather early versions of what they attempted). Lizard-men (compare it to the scales of Rhaego), eyeless cave dwellers (Rhaego was eyeless) can be found in Sothoryos (they were driven away by the Brindled Men who have the features of Brindled Wyverns living nearby). Beyond the Five Forts, there are are winged men (compare it to the wings of Rhaego) and Shrykes (very similar to the lizard-men).

So much for Viserys and his "not lying with beasts of the field," speech.

Wow, I had forgotten all the creepiness inherent with the Targaryens, which begs the question of their equally creepy, "book end," parallel counterparts, the Starks.

Who did they sleep with to taste the blood of wolves and other animals?

Maybe like this?

From Cat People 1982

https://youtu.be/-S6RdNgB-Lg

[Boudica]

No worries, but if they all had the same dark looking grey eyes then why does Martin go out of his way to describe Jon's eyes as being almost black and then describe Ned's, Arya's, and Lyanna's eyes as grey (or blue grey). I'm just saying that if you check out a color chart and combine light grey with the dark indigo eyes of Rhaegar you get a color that borders on black. And it's not as if this is the foundation of why I think R+L=J is true, but it's still kinda cool to think about.

I have always thought that the description of the eyes was a big clue, in general people tend to see what they expect to find. For example when Tyrion thought to himself that there wasn't a lot of Jon's mother in him. The description of Jon and Rhaegar's eyes are very similar, I think that Jon might actually have the same purple eyes as Rhaegar or perhaps a bit of a darker shade of purple. But people see what they expect to see, so therefore they see his eyes as being a dark Stark grey instead of purple. I think someone like Aemon would have noticed Jon's eye colour, but of course he is conveniently blind.

[Alia of the knife]

I have always thought that the description of the eyes was a big clue, in general people tend to see what they expect to find. For example when Tyrion thought to himself that there wasn't a lot of Jon's mother in him. The description of Jon and Rhaegar's eyes are very similar, I think that Jon might actually have the same purple eyes as Rhaegar or perhaps a bit of a darker shade of purple. But people see what they expect to see, so therefore they see his eyes as being a dark Stark grey instead of purple. I think someone like Aemon would have noticed Jon's eye colour, but of course he is conveniently blind.

Exactly that.