R+L=J v.140

[sj4iy]

Nope. This is not Harry Potter.

In case you didn't notice, there are absolutely no rules in this universe about what magic can and can't do or how to do it.

It's actually worse than Harry Potter, because it at least had rules about what was possible and who could and couldn't perform magic. No such outline exists for Game of Thrones.

And no, I'm not a Harry Potter fan- I'm just stating the obvious.

[SFDanny]

In case you didn't notice, there are absolutely no rules in this universe about what magic can and can't do or how to do it.

It's actually worse than Harry Potter, because it at least had rules about what was possible and who could and couldn't perform magic. No such outline exists for Game of Thrones.

And no, I'm not a Harry Potter fan- I'm just stating the obvious.

I'm not sure what rules Harry Potter had, but the time turner and the Deus Ex Machina of pulling "fiend fire" out of nowhere to destroy a horcrux kind of blew any boundaries Rowling attempted out of the water. Loved Harry Potter. Loved it for my own enjoyment, and especially loved it reading it with my kids, but I'm just stating the obvious as I see it.

[Mithras]

So much for Viserys and his "not lying with beasts of the field," speech.

Heh. Good catch.

Wow, I had forgotten all the creepiness inherent with the Targaryens, which begs the question of their equally creepy, "book end," parallel counterparts, the Starks.

Who did they sleep with to taste the blood of wolves and other animals?

Maybe like this?

From Cat People 1982

https://youtu.be/-S6RdNgB-Lg

I think the Starks definitely have non-humanoid ancestry. I believe the mother of Brandon the Builder was a CotF. We also know that the Starks have crannogmen ancestry after King Rickard Stark married the daughter of the Marsh King.

There was this Great Empire of Dawn before the known history of men. Some people think that Valyrians, Daynes, possibly Hightowers and Starks might be their descendants. Here is an interesting thread arguing that the Starks are not First Men.

[Ygrain]

I'm not sure what rules Harry Potter had, but the time turner and the Deus Ex Machina of pulling "fiend fire" out of nowhere to destroy a horcrux kind of blew any boundaries Rowling attempted out of the water. Loved Harry Potter. Loved it for my own enjoyment, and especially loved it reading it with my kids, but I'm just stating the obvious as I see it.

Not to mention the whole felix felicis BS. Making speshul magic a plot point was a terrible decision.

[Lord Varys]

TMK and ADwD gave us hints how eye color can be actively disguised - Daemon II Blackfyre distracts from his purple eyes with his coal-black hair and the color of his clothes, and Prince Aegon's blue hair makes appear his light purple eyes to appear also blue despite the fact that they are actually purple.

If Rhaegar's are actually dark indigo - more a blueish color than purple - then in Rhaegar the blue-colored tone of the Valyrian eyes may be as prominent as in Jaehaerys and Alysanne (who both had blue eyes rather than purple eyes, possibly inherited from their mother Alyssa Velaryon). A dark blue could easily resemble a dark grey. Grey and blue eyes look awfully similar anyway when the blue isn't all that deep a blue.

If Rhaegar's eyes are a more deeper purple as Jon Connington seems to be (falsely) remembering then Jon's eyes could be a deep purple resembling black eyes.

Jon's eyes could also resemble more Aerys', Jaehaerys' or Egg's who all are described as having very deep purple eyes. And we know from Bittersteel most prominently that Targaryens/Valyrian of mixed descent can keep the eye color while losing the hair color.

The fact that we only got Jon's eyes description in the first novel from Bran is highly suspicious, certainly on pair with the missing eye color of Septa Lemore.

[Mithras]

It would be one of the cheapest retcons if Jon's eyes turn out to be dark purple. Not that George is not capable of doing so (cough Maggy cough) but what is the point?

[Lord Varys]

It wouldn't be a retcon. Or did Daemon's and Aegon's eye color change in TMK and ADwD? People describe what they see not necessarily what's there.

[Nami]

It would be one of the cheapest retcons if Jon's eyes turn out to be dark purple. Not that George is not capable of doing so (cough Maggy cough) but what is the point?

Dunk only noticed the purple in Egg's eyes after knowing he was a Targaryen. Before that they were just dark eyes.

[Mithras]

However, it took only a dozen pages to reveal the truth of it in those cases. In Jon's case, it would take 5 giant books and two decades.

[Mithras]

And in both of those cases, it was mentioned that their eyes looked purple at certain lighting before the revelation, which was never told about Jon.

[Greymoon]

TMK and ADwD gave us hints how eye color can be actively disguised - Daemon II Blackfyre distracts from his purple eyes with his coal-black hair and the color of his clothes, and Prince Aegon's blue hair makes appear his light purple eyes to appear also blue despite the fact that they are actually purple.

If Rhaegar's are actually dark indigo - more a blueish color than purple - then in Rhaegar the blue-colored tone of the Valyrian eyes may be as prominent as in Jaehaerys and Alysanne (who both had blue eyes rather than purple eyes, possibly inherited from their mother Alyssa Velaryon). A dark blue could easily resemble a dark grey. Grey and blue eyes look awfully similar anyway when the blue isn't all that deep a blue.

If Rhaegar's eyes are a more deeper purple as Jon Connington seems to be (falsely) remembering then Jon's eyes could be a deep purple resembling black eyes.

Jon's eyes could also resemble more Aerys', Jaehaerys' or Egg's who all are described as having very deep purple eyes. And we know from Bittersteel most prominently that Targaryens/Valyrian of mixed descent can keep the eye color while losing the hair color.

The fact that we only got Jon's eyes description in the first novel from Bran is highly suspicious, certainly on pair with the missing eye color of Septa Lemore.

... I thought Rhaegar's eyes were a dark indigo? That would be dark blue going on dark purple, so Jon Connington wouldn't be entirely wrong in his assessment. I'd be interested to know how similar Jon's looks are to Prince Duncan's, btw. Aegon V had dark eyes, too, so I always assumed this was where Rhaegar's eyes came from... might be, also, that Rhaegar's eyes were more Dayne than Targaryen... since Maekar and Aerion, had violet eyes, and Viserys's were lighter, too (from the HotU vision), and Dany's are amethyst.

And does anyone else suspect that the Dayne-Targaryen blood ties are a bit more recent than we are led to believe? Arthur and Ashara's presence at court is awfully suspicious. House Dayne's repeated mention in the books is, too...

We know that cousin marriages are quite frequent in westeros, and we have no family tree for the Daynes... the marriages of Aegon's sister Rhae and Daella, is also, conveniently, left out. (Rhae or Daella Dayne?)

In any case, through Lady Dyanna, Rhaegar was fourth cousin to either the Daynes of Starfall or to the Daynes of High-hermitage. Or to both. :) lending credence to the theory of Gerold Dayne being a squire at the ToJ... and giving a new perspective on Arianne's thoughts about Darkstars's looks, and to the Daynes involvment in the ToJ plot, the disappearance of Lyanna and the secrecy surrounding Jon.

[Was Ashara Dayne a friend of Rhaegar's? or a friend of Elia's? She was Elia's companion, but how close were they, in truth? the dornish are notorious for their divided loyalties, and Gerold Dayne seems to hold a grudge against the Martells. How old in this grudge? Is it a personal grudge, or does it go further back?]

At the time of Aegon's reign, the blood ties with the royal house would have been cultivated by House Dayne, no? It would have been something to boast over. Just like the Martells like to remember the first Daenerys, the Daynes might have liked to remind every one of the fact, that Aegon's mother was a Dayne....and Aegon's reign ended with the tragedy of Summerhall, so all in all, by 282 AC, these ties only lay 23 years in the past -- that's barely one generation.

Yet in Aerys's reign, we hear nothing of it. It seems Aerys was fonder of his Baratheon relatives, but what of Rhaegar? Might it be that he looked to his distant cousins for companionship, rather than to Robert Baratheon? We know of his friendship with Arthur Dayne, but was that only a thing of hazard, or was it 'premeditated'? Did Rhaegar want Arthur's friendship, because after Robert, Arthur was his closest kin, and roughly the same age as he?

I suspect, that Rhaegar's and Robert's relationship wasn't good from the start. In spite of them being second cousins, they seem to have nothing in common and we have no indication that Robert attended Rhaegar's wedding. Robert might have blamed Aerys for his parents deaths as well... ill feelings between both families, might have played some role in the events that followed the tournament.

[sj4iy]

I'm not sure what rules Harry Potter had, but the time turner and the Deus Ex Machina of pulling "fiend fire" out of nowhere to destroy a horcrux kind of blew any boundaries Rowling attempted out of the water. Loved Harry Potter. Loved it for my own enjoyment, and especially loved it reading it with my kids, but I'm just stating the obvious as I see it.

I didn't say they were GOOD rules, I just said there WERE rules. IE: you needed spells to perform magic, you needed to be a wizard or witch to perform magic, etc, etc. nothing of the kind exists in Martin's universe. Basically, he does unexplainable things and says "magic!!" Dany walks into a pyre and doesn't get burned, but she gets burned later. She also hatches eggs- but why does she hatch dragon eggs and Aegon fails? Why doesn't the fire at Summerhall hatch any eggs, or people escape unhurt from it?

Why does Thoros have the ability to bring a man back from the dead 7 times but no one else does?

Basically, it just makes no sense. Harry Potter was bad about deus ex machina (one of the reasons I didn't care for it), but Martin's worse, imo.

[Greymoon]

And in both of those cases, it was mentioned that their eyes looked purple at certain lighting before the revelation, which was never told about Jon.

But who describes Jon's look to us? iirc, his looks are mostly described by his close kin, so, we might be dealing with a possible bias, since Starks have grey eyes, brown hair, and Jon is generally said to look like Ned.

What other POV do we have, that describes Jon's appearance? Tyrion, maybe, in GOT, at the very beginning. Does Sam ever mention Jon's looks? or Melisandre? I feel that we haven't gotten a good description on Jon's appearance since the very first book, when he was 14 years old. Of course, eye colors don't change all that much...but it does change..... and we have a very famous National Geographic picture to testify of that as well.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text

...I'd be more interested in his other features though. I don't buy that he looks 100 % like a Stark. No kid takes a 100% after the one parent. And boys literal grow into their features during puberty -- that, as far as I remember, Jon hadn't started on as he left for the wall, since he was really shrimp sized.... smaller than 13 year old Joffrey. It's also frequent to look more like the one parent during childhood, and to start looking more and more like the other, as time goes by.

For all we know, Jon has the long face of a Stark, but the straight nose of a Targaryen. Or he has the long face of a Stark, but the forehead and cheek bones of a Targaryen.... Or his long face isn't Stark at all, but Targaryen and it's mostly Jon's facial expression, coloring, and body language that make him look so much like Ned... Do we assume Ned's reluctance to foster Jon out was justified, or was good old Ned just paranoid? Might it be that Ned saw some of Rhaegar's features in the boy after all?

I'm pretty sure Viserys's face could have been described as long, seeing as it was thin and gaunt. And Dany does think that the brothers resemble each other closely (HotU vision). Aurane Waters's face might be considered 'long' by some other observer, as well, and he's said to look similar to Rhaegar... Cersei thinks that Aurane's face is narrower than Rhaegar's.... which (though it might be an over interpretation) might suggest that Rhaegar had a narrow face.

If someone can explain, objectively, the distinct difference between a narrow and a long face, I'll be happy to listen. But to me, it seems, that these two adjectives describe similar shapes... Lyv Tyler's face pops up whenever I look for the one, or the other. While Chris Hemsworth is said to have an 'oblong' face...and didn't some people point out that Rhaegar's picture in WoIaF looked remarkably like Hemsworth?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Rhaegar_twoiaf.jpg

[Mithras]

“Jon, I cannot disobey my father.”

Jon, he’d said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice. “You have no father,” said Lord Snow. “Only brothers. Only us."

“Lord Snow,” Melisandre said quietly. “Will you come with me to the King’s Tower? I have more to share with you.”

He looked at her face for a long moment with those cold grey eyes of his. His right hand closed, opened, closed again. “As you wish. Edd, take Ghost back to my chambers.

Jon Snow’s grey eyes grew wider. “Mance?”

“Lord Snow.” Mance Rayder did not smile.

[Greymoon]

“Jon, I cannot disobey my father.”

Jon, he’d said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice. “You have no father,” said Lord Snow. “Only brothers. Only us."

“Lord Snow,” Melisandre said quietly. “Will you come with me to the King’s Tower? I have more to share with you.”

He looked at her face for a long moment with those cold grey eyes of his. His right hand closed, opened, closed again. “As you wish. Edd, take Ghost back to my chambers.

The first being Sam, then? I stand corrected. Still, no indication about his other facial features :)

[Lord Varys]

Actually, there is an explanation why Thoros could only bring back Beric:

The fire magic connected to/interacted with Beric's magical Targaryen blood which he had inherited from his his Targaryen ancestor Princess Rhaena - the one who had six daughter with Garmund Hightower one of which might have married into House Dondarrion. Corroborating evidence/hints for that lie in the fact that the marriage of Baelor Breakspear - then Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne - to Jena Dondarrion did apparently not cause a massive outrage (like Yandel thinks Egg's marriage to Betha Blackwood would have caused if he had been not at the very end of the line of succession).

A working magical fire wight matrix may then be transferred by the fire wight to another body, resurrecting it, and resulting in the ultimate death of the previous fire wight.

Beric Dondarrion may actually have been introduced to give us a strong clue how Jon Snow might be resurrected by Melisandre. Although things might be slightly different with him as Mel's kiss of fire could only resurrect Jon's body while his soul is still in Ghost (and he would have to find a way to return into his human body. If Melisandre is a fire wight, too, she may have Targaryen blood, too, most likely through Shiera and Bloodraven.

[Mithras]

The first being Sam, then? I stand corrected. Still, no indication about his other facial features :)

Alys and Theon called him sullen and it is true.

[Nami]

But who describes Jon's look to us? iirc, his looks are mostly described by his close kin, so, we might be dealing with a possible bias, since Starks have grey eyes, brown hair, and Jon is generally said to look like Ned.

What other POV do we have, that describes Jon's appearance? Tyrion, maybe, in GOT, at the very beginning. Does Sam ever mention Jon's looks? or Melisandre? I feel that we haven't gotten a good description on Jon's appearance since the very first book, when he was 14 years old. Of course, eye colors don't change all that much...but it does change..... and we have a very famous National Geographic picture to testify of that as well.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text

...I'd be more interested in his other features though. I don't buy that he looks 100 % like a Stark. No kid takes a 100% after the one parent. And boys literal grow into their features during puberty -- that, as far as I remember, Jon hadn't started on as he left for the wall, since he was really shrimp sized.... smaller than 13 year old Joffrey. It's also frequent to look more like the one parent during childhood, and to start looking more and more like the other, as time goes by.

For all we know, Jon has the long face of a Stark, but the straight nose of a Targaryen. Or he has the long face of a Stark, but the forehead and cheek bones of a Targaryen.... Or his long face isn't Stark at all, but Targaryen and it's mostly Jon's facial expression, coloring, and body language that make him look so much like Ned... Do we assume Ned's reluctance to foster Jon out was justified, or was good old Ned just paranoid? Might it be that Ned saw some of Rhaegar's features in the boy after all?

I'm pretty sure Viserys's face could have been described as long, seeing as it was thin and gaunt. And Dany does think that the brothers resemble each other closely (HotU vision). Aurane Waters's face might be considered 'long' by some other observer, as well, and he's said to look similar to Rhaegar... Cersei thinks that Aurane's face is narrower than Rhaegar's.... which (though it might be an over interpretation) might suggest that Rhaegar had a narrow face.

If someone can explain, objectively, the distinct difference between a narrow and a long face, I'll be happy to listen. But to me, it seems, that these two adjectives describe similar shapes... Lyv Tyler's face pops up whenever I look for the one, or the other. While Chris Hemsworth is said to have an 'oblong' face...and didn't some people point out that Rhaegar's picture in WoIaF looked remarkably like Hemsworth?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Rhaegar_twoiaf.jpg

I don't really think it means that.

But yeah, it does seem like the artwork is based on Chris Hemsworth. But is it considered canon?

I really like this artwork because I grow tired of people imagining Rhaegar as effeminate and girly looking. Those things never crossed my mind while reading about him, to be honest, quite the contrary actually. I imagine him built like a warrior. Training since 14/15 I suppose, in his 20s he must have been very well built.

Does anyone else see some Heath Ledger in the artwork as well?

[LmL]

I didn't say they were GOOD rules, I just said there WERE rules. IE: you needed spells to perform magic, you needed to be a wizard or witch to perform magic, etc, etc. nothing of the kind exists in Martin's universe. Basically, he does unexplainable things and says "magic!!" Dany walks into a pyre and doesn't get burned, but she gets burned later. She also hatches eggs- but why does she hatch dragon eggs and Aegon fails? Why doesn't the fire at Summerhall hatch any eggs, or people escape unhurt from it?

Why does Thoros have the ability to bring a man back from the dead 7 times but no one else does?

Basically, it just makes no sense. Harry Potter was bad about deus ex machina (one of the reasons I didn't care for it), but Martin's worse, imo.

I'd like to respectfully disagree here. I believe the magic in Martin's world does actually follow rules, but he hasn't laid them out to us like they do in magic school. He definitely wants to keep an air of mystery around the magic, that's certain, but it does seem like there are rules. Firstly, the natural forces are personified as magic in and of themselves. Ice and fire. Fire made flesh, frozen fire. The Others are ice made flesh. The Valyrians drew magic from the 14 fires. The heart of winter seems to be the source of ice magic, and the Shadow by Asshai some sort of corrupted heart of fire magic. The magics we see are tied to one of the elemental forces, or else blood, or both. Only death can pay for life - but what's up with Thoros? Who dies to pay for Berics ressurection? Well, I think there is an answer and I think we are meant to notice this seeming inconsistency and puzzle out the reason. Targaryens have a latent ability to withstand fire, because they have dragon blood in them, and dragons can withstand fire. It's probably a necessity to ride a dragon while he is spewing rivers of molten flame - I bet it gets hot right behind the dragons furnace of a head, you know? Dany's hair burns off as she rides Drogon - good thing she's a Targ, or that would have been problematic.

In any case, I think what George has done is set our rules for himself, but not given them to the reader, so as to make the magic seem mysterious, at least at first. But I haven't found anything inconsistent that I cannot come up with a plausible theory to explain.

[LmL]

Actually, there is an explanation why Thoros could only bring back Beric:

The fire magic connected to/interacted with Beric's magical Targaryen blood which he had inherited from his his Targaryen ancestor Princess Rhaena - the one who had six daughter with Garmund Hightower one of which might have married into House Dondarrion. Corroborating evidence/hints for that lie in the fact that the marriage of Baelor Breakspear - then Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne - to Jena Dondarrion did apparently not cause a massive outrage (like Yandel thinks Egg's marriage to Betha Blackwood would have caused if he had been not at the very end of the line of succession).

A working magical fire wight matrix may then be transferred by the fire wight to another body, resurrecting it, and resulting in the ultimate death of the previous fire wight.

Beric Dondarrion may actually have been introduced to give us a strong clue how Jon Snow might be resurrected by Melisandre. Although things might be slightly different with him as Mel's kiss of fire could only resurrect Jon's body while his soul is still in Ghost (and he would have to find a way to return into his human body. If Melisandre is a fire wight, too, she may have Targaryen blood, too, most likely through Shiera and Bloodraven.

The problem with this explanation is that it does not explain how Thoros first resurrected Beric. Who died? Only death can pay for life. Cold wights aren't alive, they're dead, animated corpses. Beric's blood flows, and he can still eat and drink if he wishes, which means he is alive to some extent. But nobody died. He transferred his gift to Stoneheart, that's easy to understand. But who paid for his resurrection?

My idea for this relies on my astronomy theory, but essentially when the second moon, the Nissa Nissa moon, was killed or sacrificed by the comet (Azor Ahai's sword), he blood and strength and soul went into the steel of the new sword - translate, flaming meteors which fell to earth - but what happened to her shade? Her shadow? I think it is the shadow which hangs over the shadowlands by Asshai. The mechanics here are similar to Christian salvation - the sacrifice of one perfect, blameless God can pay for the sins of all men. Nissa moon's death pays for resurrections, but you have to tap into her power - the shadow fire that emanates from Asshai. Thus, fire mages using the shadow fire magic can resurrect people without anyone needing to die. That's my theory anyway.