[Book Spoilers] EP503 Discussion

[cgf]

Do people really think this Thorne will be in on the Ides of Marsh? That shot of Olly after Jon says "there's little love for the free-folk here" and looked over to him seemed to make it pretty clear that Olly would be the one sticking the first knife in Jon's back. If Thorne is around CB when it happens it seems more likely for him to try to defend Jon than join in on the conspiracy given where they've gone with that relationship.

Edited April 27, 2015 by cgf

[jacksonbrowne]

Warning. I'm gonna rant.

While I myself am a big fan of ASOIAF, and only a casual show watcher, I need to say: all that "they changed it, now it sucks" stuff is srsly furrealz ridiculous. Boohoo, so Tommen bedded Margaery, thus they obviously discarded the "gasp, Marg no virgin!1!" play with something different... so what? Was the "gasp, Marg no virgin!1!" play really that awesomelicious? You really fell in deep deep love with that subplot and nothing else could possibly be this this this absolutely super? I'm calling BS.

Boohoo^2, there's this cool quote in teh book, but in teh show nobody mentions no block! Ruined!!! Ya know what? I've read the book. And the block-fetching is decisively not what made the biggest impact on me. Nor second biggest. Nor third biggest. That scene, actually, was not first and foremost about block-fetching.

Seriously. There's plenty of stuff in the show to have a decent, legit whine about, and you pull that shit instead? Sheesh. They're making a TV adaptation which is a TV adaptation. Make peace with that fact.

What he said. I think for some people it's best they never, ever watch the show anymore. I mean why if it absolutely ruins your life?

[cgf]

What he said. I think for some people it's best they never, ever watch the show anymore. I mean why if it absolutely ruins your life?

Because the schadenfreude some of us get from reading their gripes is wonderful?

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

You don't transfer oaths and loyalty. I think those who have predicted that Brienne will have to choose between her oath to Cat and her oath to Renly which will mirror her choice between Cat and Jaime in the books.

In show terms Renly is old news. That is my only point. Brienne will do what she does for the reasons they give. I am fine with it.

[Cubarey]

Do people really think this Thorne will be in on the Ides of Marsh? That shot of Olly after Jon says "there's little love for the free-folk here" and looked over to him seemed to make it pretty clear that Olly would be the one sticking the first knife in Jon's back. If Thorne is around CB when it happens it seems more likely for him to try to defend Jon than join in on the conspiracy given where they've gone with that relationship.

I think he will not be the one wielding the knife I think he will be the mastermind behind the plot who keeps his hands clean. At least from my reading of the books the plot to get rid of Jon did not spring up organicly when he stated what he was going to do after reading the Red Letter instead its seems to me that there had been long behind the scenes schemes to convince people that Jon's love of the wildlings and his interests in none Brotherhood political matters could not be allowed to continue. Jon's reaction to the Red Letter was simply the catalyst that made people act. So yia Olly will be one of the knife wielders and a couple of people that have been Jons side will join him in performing the deed but at Thorne's encouragement.

The fact that dickheads can prove themselves to be capable and couragious does not mean that they will turn out to be something other then a dickhead. Thorne is capable and his actions during the Wilding invasion showed he is personally couragious and a leader, that does not mean he is going to change his spots and come to Jon's defense at the critical moment.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Cubarey

[Tolsimir]

Hey all I'm back! I'm here to tell you why this weeks episode was terrible.

-So D&D have officially decided Jaqern's far more intriguing and interesting Oldtown story scheme was "too confusing" (much like LSH) and thus cut. Instead we get this banal training arc mentor crap. Grand Maester conspiracy? Faceless men and Valyria? The truth about the Hightowers? Salleras? WHO CARES, LEL MAISIE WILLIAMS SAID CUNT XD!

-Adult Tommen is annoying and shit. Why the hell did D&D up-age him again? It doesn't even make any sense. Like 2 seasons ago he was a little kid sitting in Cersei's lap. I get D&D dumb shit down and expect the audience to just accept it, but do they really expect us to forget this?

-More useless sex shit. Nobody cares D&D. You're not edgy. You're just wasting time. I mean you cut all these characters and plots yet somehow find the time to shove in the same rehashed sex scenes every damn episode. OMG BEWBS. Fuck off with your crap.

-D&D have of course dumbed down the Margy-Cersei cold war into the most ridiculous petty schoolyard girl antics.

-Inserting Sansa into the Winterfell arc? FUCK YOU D&D YOU SHITS FOR BRAINS. This is the biggest fuckup yet. It makes no goddamn sense and just destroys the best storyline from D&D. Nevermind it makes LF the stupidest guy in Westeros. I bet they're gonna add some sansa "strong independent wmyz dark sansa outsmarts roose bolton" bullshit. And I also like how in the books LF is ultra-careful to avoid anybody knowing sansa is still alive. Yet in the show he parades her around all day and casually eats with her at taverns and everybody seems to just be aware of who she is

-"The North Remembers". OOOOO AAAAA SO BADASS THOUGHT D&D. This will surely satisfy the fans, right?! Wrong. Do they think randomly shoehorning in this quote while removing the character who most famously says it and the situation it's most famously said in will compensate for that? No. Fuck off D&D.

-AND HOW DOES SANSA EVEN KNOW ROOSE KILLED ROBB. HOW DOES EVERYBODY IN THE FUCKING WORLD KNOW THIS. D&D proving once again they think Westeros is the size of Disneyland.

-Speaking of how this Sansa Winterfell crap makes no sense. It makes absolutely no sense sansa would agree to marry ramsay. she just changes her mind and decides for no reason despite being against it seconds before. Moreover why the hell is everybody 100% okay with Sansa being alive? Why would Bolton or LF (both Lannister allies) both openly fuck around with Sansa like this when she's wanted for the death of Joffrey? And don't try to rationalize this huge goddamn plothole with D&D's weak excuse of a justification, that was total bullshit and answered NOTHING. Baelish would never openly confront the Lannisters like this (he's actually SUBTLE in the books) and Bolton still has and needs Frey/Lannister support despite the death of Tywin. Margy doesn't "Adore" Sansa either. Bullshit weak excuse for bullshit weak plot/10.

-Why was Moat Caillin even in this weeks episode? Do D&D think it's the only place in the North? besides Winterfell?

-D&D suggesting Brienne > Hound again. Oh fuck off.

-Then after trying to elevate Brienne, they do this self-hating "i'm so ugly" emo bullshit. Book Brienne would never get this shallow and banal. D&D seem desperate to prop up women characters but like any true SJW they ultimately have them lose any kind of complexity.

-THIS FUCKING KID IN THE NIGHT'S WATCH WON'T GO AWAY. GO AWAY AND DIE.

-Thorne is Eastwatch Commander? Does Cotter Pyke just not exist anymore even though he is mentioned in past seasons? Do D&D just constantly pretend the audience is stupid enough to forget people every goddamn episode?

-Turning Waif into some kind of school bully with this beating shit. House of Black and White isn't a fucking boarding school you pieces of shit.

-Thorne was never a ranger but now he's a gr8 ranger!!!!!

-No fetch me a block of course. Cuz D&D just gotta take away every iconic quote just to fuck with us.

-Fucked up the general execution scene. They make Jon seem far too smug and happy about the whole thing. They take away all of his conflict and reasoning over it, they take away the fact he gives Janos a night to think over his insubordination, they take away him changing his method of execution (thus making everyone thinking he backed down, which added great tension to the scene). They have Janos go on some sort of "I was always afraid" diatribe as if D&D think they're geniuses for trying to flesh out the character. Stannis nod can't save it.

-Oh wow more sex scenes D&D. Soooo edgy.

-Oh look it's ISIS, or should we say the show Sparrows because D&D are inserting their fedora atheist shit into a medieval setting. in the books the sparrows are against this high septon because he was appointed by Tyrion, who is reviled by the common folks and seen as corrupt. Not because of this "sinner" bullcrap. Stfu with demonizing the faith and the sparrows, D&D. Not to mention I'm sure they're going to not even have him killed by Cersei over her Tyrion paranoia, because the show is so hell-bent on whitewashing cersei for some reason.

-High Sparrow smiling and joking and shit. No. He's above such petty pleasantries. He is faith and pious incarnate.

-Making Ramsay act like a nice cool guy around people. Fuck off D&D. He's already a renowned monster. First you give him that shitty girlfriend, now you do this. Stop destroying the character.

-"Who supports me now that Tywin is dead" asks show-Roose. Well D&D, how about the Lannisters and Freys? Why wouldn't they? Fucking stupid show.

-Volantis Tyrion is such a shit in this show. Snarky whiny bitch who plays with a door, loses all the insanity/near-evil attitudes and actions Tyrion has at this point in the books. No roughing up a prostitute (INSTEAD HE'S NICE TO HER) and no talking about raping and murdering Cersei. Instead more LEL FUNNY JOKES XD! Because we can't have any kind of complexity or negativity with fan favorite Peter Dinklage! Fuck you and fuck your character whitewashing, D&D. You even have him REFUSE A WHORE out of grief. You do not understand this character at all, clearly. I mean I guess I get why they cut Penny when D&D have made her completely unnecessary by making Tyrion so fucking one dimensional.

-Speaking of character assassination, fucking Varys man. They're wrecking him with this Tyrion bro roadtrip comedy bullcrap. He's THE SPIDER. He's sinister master planner tier. He has no friends in King's Landing. He's above this pleb bullcrap. Him and Illyrio have men for this kind of shit with Tyrion in the books because they're not retards in the books. We can expect Varys' best moment from ADWD to of course be removed, for this comedy bullshit. Not to mention they're making him out to be completely inept.

This weeks ep earns 10/10 in character assassination for Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, and Roose. Bravo D&D!

Weekly reminder that the show has been shit since season 2 and the books are better. I'll be back next week!

Read this whole thread just to find this. Was worth it :bowdown: .

[cgf]

I think he will not be the one wielding the knife I think he will be the mastermind behind the plot who keeps his hands clean. At least from my reading of the books the plot to get rid of Jon did not spring up organicly when he stated what he was going to do after reading the Red Letter instead its seems to me that there had been long behind the scenes schemes to convince people that Jon's love of the wildlings and his interests in none Brotherhood political matters could not be allowed to continue. Jon's reaction to the Red Letter was simply the catalyst that made people act. So yia Olly will be one of the knife wielders and a couple of people that have been Jons side will join him in performing the deed but at Thorne's encouragement.

The fact that dickheads can prove themselves to be capable and couragious does not mean that they will turn out to be something other then a dickhead. Thorne is capable and his actions during the Wilding invasion showed he is personally couragious and a leader, that does not mean he is going to change his spots and come to Jon's defense at the critical moment.

Show thorne isn't just capable, he's also a lot less utterly dickish/bitter. Him stepping aside for Edd after the looks he and jon shared while Jon was handing out duties showed a great deal more respect than book-Thorne ever did. The character we see on the screen seems the type who will gripe about not being LC; like clever cunts are want to do, or the people's champion Stannis does; but not the type to actively scheme to supplant Jon with the way Jon's treating him.

I can definitely see the backstabbers doing so with the intention of Thorne taking over as LC, but this Thorne actively scheming against Jon would be out of character.

Edited April 27, 2015 by cgf

[Janicia]

That's their father; their FATHER versus... a guy she met like twice. I'm sorry, that is not a great comparison. Brienne's motivation is duty, so I get that, but she was the sworn sword to a traitor-King... and then sworn to Cat ... and then Joff... Jesus... so... Brienne takes her duty seriously... unless it interferes with the story... The book, its more clear; she went from Renly to Cat and the to Stoneheart after, you know, they nearly kill her. That makes some bit of sense. And she is no longer really hung up on Renly because, well, real life has gotten in the way of that shit.

Brienne's motivation in the show is pasted on; its there to remind us all "Hey- everyone, THIS IS HOW STANNIS WILL DIE!!!" Its not smart, interesting, clever, deft, or well done. Its just there.

In the show at least, Brienne swears her sword to Catelyn on the condition that Catelyn will release her to go after Stannis when the time comes. Brienne's oath to Catelyn was always secondary to her duties as Renly's kingsguard - she's just put the Renly / Stannis stuff on the backburner because she didn't have an opening to do anything about it.

And clearly Renly wasn't just "some guy Brienne met twice". She went to war for him by her own choice. He took her seriously as a knight and put her on the kingsguard. Apparently he was kind to her in the past at an important moment. He was murdered on her watch, and everything has gone to shit since. Brienne has Renly on a high pedestal.

Further, why should Brienne serve Catelyn's memory the rest of her life? Catelyn got her out of Renly's camp. That is a big thing, but it is just one thing, and Brienne has been through a hell of at lot trying to serve Catelyn since then.

Anyway, just because one character wants to kill another character doesn't mean that's how they'll die. Characters almost never get to actually achieve their goals. GRRM must have a pretty spectacular end in store for Stannis, and it isn't very likely to involve Brienne. So maybe the show deviates, but they tend to try to hit GRRM's crescendos.

[sabrecmc]

Count me in the minority (I guess) who is very happy to ditch the fake!Arya story and have Sansa back in the North. So far, in the books, the Vale storyline has been dull (to me). I'm much happier with her plotting revenge while being in serious peril, just as I like my characters. Plus, more chances for characters I actually give a crap about to collide is fine by me.

King's Landing is by far the least interesting to me, and amazingly enough, I found myself missing Dany scenes. I don't know how the show made Mereen interesting, but there you go. I guess I'm easy to please or something. Show is show. Books are books. Entertain me, damn you!

[Ross2013]

I loved this episode, and am very happy that, although only three weeks in, each episode gets stronger.

I was very happy with the Wall scenes. The interaction between Stannis and Jon is great. I do miss Stannis' knights and the banter in the war counsels, and Davos by himself really can't substitute. But its been fun so far. Definitely interested how they play out Stannis' assault on Winterfell.

I liked Volantis and was thrilled to see Jorah. I was beginning to wonder if they were going to even have the kidnapping. Yeah, Varys screwed up, but the Spider is far from perfect (otherwise, he wouldn't be on the run chasing a drunk dwarf). In fact, one might argue that he's been screwing up and having things blow up in his face since Season 1. Seriously, same as book Varys, his plans haven't really worked out and he keeps getting trumped by LF. And in all fairness, doesn't Varys' plan for him and Tyrion to join Dany reek of desperate stupidity. One of the Usurper's dogs (in her mind) with a "traitor" who served the Usurper.

I think this episode really justified the decision to age up Tommen (and of course Marg). I think the drama being amped up in KL is much more interesting than having Tommen play with some kittens while Cersei tries to prove some poor teen girl is/isn't a virgin.

Withholding judgment on Arya's story. We'll see where it goes. Definitely have concerns with Sansa's storyline (although I'd be the first to admit that I cared not a bit for Jeyne Pool, so D&D have already accomplished something with inserting Sansa). It will be interesting to see how LF's plan plays out.

The only dissappointment for me is Brienne's storyline. I hope they are not setting her up to be the one to kill Stannis. That would be unforgivable.

[intheswamp]

The Wall scenes have been good so far this season. I give Kit Harington the most improved actor award.

[Jack Bauer 24]

Great episode all around. Sansa in Winterfell was even more brilliant than I could have imagined. Having a character we're invested in and have watched grow up in WF is so much better than having her sit around the Vale. Kudos to D&D. Better than the books here for sure. George should have done this himself.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

In the show at least, Brienne swears her sword to Catelyn on the condition that Catelyn will release her to go after Stannis when the time comes. Brienne's oath to Catelyn was always secondary to her duties as Renly's kingsguard - she's just put the Renly / Stannis stuff on the backburner because she didn't have an opening to do anything about it.

And clearly Renly wasn't just "some guy Brienne met twice". She went to war for him by her own choice. He took her seriously as a knight and put her on the kingsguard. Apparently he was kind to her in the past at an important moment. He was murdered on her watch, and everything has gone to shit since. Brienne has Renly on a high pedestal.

Love this!

Great episode all around. Sansa in Winterfell was even more brilliant than I could have imagined. Having a character we're invested in and have watched grow up in WF is so much better than having her sit around the Vale. Kudos to D&D. Better than the books here for sure. George should have done this himself.

JB! Where've you been, dude?

[Mithras]

For the record;

There are seven gods at the Hall of the Black Pool.

1. Lion of Night sitting in a throne (easy to identify)

2. Next to him is the Black Goat of Qohor (even easier to identify - Hello Baphomet, long time no see)

3. At the other side of the Lion of Night, we have the Weeping Lady of Lys with water trickling down her eyes (the man who drank from the black pool died at her feet). Ellaria in the books worships this goddess.

4. The fiery heart of the Red God is also obvious.

5. The stone face is supposed to be a weirwood face.

6. The standing hooded figure who turned his/her back is the Stranger (note that it is supposed to be gender indeterminate)

7. And finally, the misshapen, grotesque thing at the other side of the Stranger is the Drowned God. This was the only surprise for me.

[dielsis]

I hate to keep harping on it but: http://calliander.net/stuff/north-remembers.jpg

Since her credit is only "old woman" could she be a repurposed, aged-up Lady Dustin, perhaps? Am I the only one who noticed how closely she matches the description (if you assume extra years added on)?

[The Tower of Almond Joy]

I don't mean to interupt your conversation. I apologize. I haven't been able to access the forum (that dreaded server failure) I got this far, so I am posting when I can. Haven't been able to read this thread yet either...

Has it been brought up yet that there is now a Stark at Winterfell? and how or if it will change things on the show?

[RoamingRonin]

Warning. I'm gonna rant.

While I myself am a big fan of ASOIAF, and only a casual show watcher, I need to say: all that "they changed it, now it sucks" stuff is srsly furrealz ridiculous. Boohoo, so Tommen bedded Margaery, thus they obviously discarded the "gasp, Marg no virgin!1!" play with something different... so what? Was the "gasp, Marg no virgin!1!" play really that awesomelicious? You really fell in deep deep love with that subplot and nothing else could possibly be this this this absolutely super? I'm calling BS.

Boohoo^2, there's this cool quote in teh book, but in teh show nobody mentions no block! Ruined!!! Ya know what? I've read the book. And the block-fetching is decisively not what made the biggest impact on me. Nor second biggest. Nor third biggest. That scene, actually, was not first and foremost about block-fetching.

Seriously. There's plenty of stuff in the show to have a decent, legit whine about, and you pull that shit instead? Sheesh. They're making a TV adaptation which is a TV adaptation. Make peace with that fact.

Agreed completely.

[Gargarax]

1. HouseHarrisons review is by far the most enjoyable - thanks for that!

2. I'm getting tired of people shouting "If you don't like the show, don't watch it, stupid!" A while ago, you only read those comments on winteriscoming.org. Then they spread to watchersonthewall.com. Now here. What's the purpose? How boring would it be to read a forum where everybody loves the show?

3. I'm sceptical myself of where the show is going. There were so many scenes in episode 2 that felt rushed, poorly written or simply unnecessary. I liked this week's episodes much better. But yes, I too am tired of naked prostitutes, I thought the High Septon scene at the brothel was a scene a 14-year-old could have written better, the KL storyline withouth Margaery's life on the line already bores me, Varys and Littlefinger both seemed out of character and it makes no sense that Sansa knows Roose killed Robb. There is no good explanation for this. None. And that was just one of the many details that a careful producer should have spotted.

4. There was, on the other hand, stuff that will keep me watching with joy. The House of Black and White is great, Arya as interesting as ever. The scenes at the wall have power and are beautifully shot and well acted. I like Stannis more and more, which I didn't expect after season 3. Sansa is not at all Martin's Sansa, but interesting as a character. I doubt the Winterfell plot will really win me over, but I'm happy to be convinced.

5. Still, it's sad that the work "book purist" is used on almost every forum now to silence everybody who doesn't think the show is a doing a better job of the ASOS aftermath. Because it doesn't, or at least many feel it doesn't.

[dielsis]

5. Still, it's sad that the work "book purist" is used on almost every forum now to silence everybody who doesn't think the show is a doing a better job of the ASOS aftermath. Because it doesn't, or at least many feel it doesn't.

I'm the first to admit that I like the show more than the books, but I also acknowledge that I don't share the same love that most readers do for the events in AFFC and ADWD - I couldn't stand the extra Greyjoys, Dorne, etc. and I've never liked Dany's chapters so there's obviously some bias on that side. But it's definitely disconcerting how people can't even voice a slight gripe about the show without what you described happening.

Yeah, complaining about changing the line to "Olly, get me my sword," is juvenile but several other things people have pointed out are completely valid. Even though I like the show more I'm worried about the handling of Cersei and Jon this season, along with the despair that comes with acknowledging that Manderly is out. (One of the parts of ADWD that I enjoyed. All of those Davos chapters, really.)

I like where things are headed with Sansa but I can certainly understand the concerns others have about it. Why do people have to dismiss those concerns without discussion?

[Jack Bauer 24]

Love this!

JB! Where've you been, dude?

Hey! I've stayed over in the Entertainment sub forum since the Season began. I decided to wander over here finally and see what people are saying since 503 is my favorite episode of the Season so far.