[Book Spoilers] EP503 Discussion

[Northbound3.0]

I hate to keep harping on it but: http://calliander.net/stuff/north-remembers.jpg

Since her credit is only "old woman" could she be a repurposed, aged-up Lady Dustin, perhaps? Am I the only one who noticed how closely she matches the description (if you assume extra years added on)?

Lady Dustin, wouldn't be waiting on Sansa.

[Wouter]

Great episode. Loved the little nod to the Nod we got from Stannis. I thought Tommen and Marg was well-handled. A+ creepiness from Qyburn. Stannis and Brienne are totally going to meet this season--I highly doubt it will end in death for either of them. Brienne I think is being set up to have to pick which of her oaths she'll hold to: revenge on Stannis or saving Sansa.

I agree that it looks like Brienne will have to choose between revenge on Stannis or saving Sansa. If so, I'll think she'll choose for Sansa. She may not even meet with Stannis in that case, as Sansa may be fleeing to the south (to the Riverlands or back to the Vale), rather than to Stannis. After all, in the books she is there and I still suspect Sansa in Winterfell will be similar to Jaime in Dorne.

Looks like Tyrion and Jorah will meet the Stone men on their journey. Greyscale has been mentioned a lot, lately. I expect Jorah to take this part of Connington's role from the books.

Loved the scenes on the Wall. Jon/Stannis/Davos and Jon/Alliser/Slynt, great stuff.

It's obvious that Myranda will get involved in the Ramsay/Sansa thing. Which makes me wonder if Myranda Royce will turn on Sansa in the books, as I doubt the name and the jealousy in both characters is a coincidence.

[Wouter]

This just made me remember. What was up with that long look from the Red Priestess? Will she facilitate Tyrion getting to Dany? Will she warn Dany? Will she do nothing but stare? Tune in next week, folks. or the week after that.

The Red Priestess seemed to take notice of Tyrion, much in the same way as Moqorro did in the books.

[Sub_Zero94]

The only way Sansa would know Roose killed Robb is if Joff flat out told her off screen or had someone tell her. If you remember, Tyrion was going to go tell her(in the show) , but she was already crying. She knew. I wouldn't be surprised if Joff flat out told her and rubbed her nose in it. But, the show doesn't explain it.

Baelish going from the best game player to being Ser Dontos level stupid overnight, is another thing that the show writers haven't explained...

[Ruin]

Nice to see Faye Marsay again, really enjoyed her as Anne Neville. Would also like to see more of Rila Fukushima this season. She was certainly the best part of Tyrion's scenes.

[Gargarax]

I'm the first to admit that I like the show more than the books, but I also acknowledge that I don't share the same love that most readers do for the events in AFFC and ADWD - I couldn't stand the extra Greyjoys, Dorne, etc. and I've never liked Dany's chapters so there's obviously some bias on that side. But it's definitely disconcerting how people can't even voice a slight gripe about the show without what you described happening.

Yeah, complaining about changing the line to "Olly, get me my sword," is juvenile but several other things people have pointed out are completely valid. Even though I like the show more I'm worried about the handling of Cersei and Jon this season, along with the despair that comes with acknowledging that Manderly is out. (One of the parts of ADWD that I enjoyed. All of those Davos chapters, really.)

I like where things are headed with Sansa but I can certainly understand the concerns others have about it. Why do people have to dismiss those concerns without discussion?

I agree - I'm not book purist enough to mind changes of single lines, although I liked "Only Cat" more than "Your sister". I found some changes interesting and necessary, like Dany's Qarth episode or the much hated Talisa, even though they took something interesting away from the story. It's a show, and as a show it really worked.

I'm not sure some of the scenes from seasons 4 and 5 work so well. I'm most annoyed by the offendingly unsubtle introduction of new or reappearing characters, most notably Karl, The Mountain and now the High Septon. One scene of a minute or so establishes: Oh, so that's a bad guy. A pity this couldn't be developed a bit more.

And yes, Manderley was one of the most interesting and entertaining characters in ADWD (well, the whole North plot was pretty good, I thought). I don't think we'll see him though.

[sb.69]

I hate to keep harping on it but: http://calliander.net/stuff/north-remembers.jpg

Since her credit is only "old woman" could she be a repurposed, aged-up Lady Dustin, perhaps? Am I the only one who noticed how closely she matches the description (if you assume extra years added on)?

It's the "sexualized" Bathilda Bagshot! (from Harry Potter).

[Gargarax]

The only way Sansa would know Roose killed Robb is if Joff flat out told her off screen or had someone tell her. If you remember, Tyrion was going to go tell her(in the show) , but she was already crying. She knew. I wouldn't be surprised if Joff flat out told her and rubbed her nose in it. But, the show doesn't explain it.

Baelish going from the best game player to being Ser Dontos level stupid overnight, is another thing that the show writers haven't explained...

It occured to me that there could me many reasons she knows - Littlefinger must know and would probably have told her, if his plans are to crush the Boltons. Roose Bolton became Warden of the North for SOME reason, and Sansa might as well know.

The problem is more that in a TV show, you shouldn't have to figure out too much of what was going on in the background yourself, especially if it is easy to set it up before. There were many incidents where we had to make up explanations ourselves to make something really work. If only writers wrote several seasons at the same time, or at least outlined them, as writers do. A lot of those small inconsistencies just wouldn't happen. I know, it's not how tv works, but a man can dream, can he not :P

[Dalpha]

I agree about Jorah taking Griff's place here. I can't wait to see the Stonemen. I hope they're more creative with the design than they were with the children of the forest.

One thing I still can't peg is the storyline for Dorne. It seems simple, but it really isn't. Though Elia is taking the role of Arianne, it doesn't look like they're going with the Queensmaker story. It looks like they just want to kill the girl. SO, when Doran puts an end to that, what happens next? What's his big speech going to be about? Will he actually be the one taking on Arianne's role and decide to marry his son to Myrcella? Does Varys want to marry Trystane to Dany? Is that the speech? It's hard to tell. I've given up on Trystane being Aegon. That story is scrubbed. I'm convinced. Varys would have had some exposition with Tyrion about it within the first couple episodes, building us up to it. So, I'm curious to see how this plays out.

[Mithras]

We didnot have "fetch me the block" but we still have the nod.

[kn1tt3r]

We didnot have "fetch me the block" but we still have the nod.

So, some thoughts on those "iconic quotes" the series didn't show.

The main reason in the majority of the cases is that those quotes don't seem that iconic to the writers after all, and for good reason I think. "Only Cat" was mainly so memorable because it was used by the fans as some sort of headline for the scene as a whole. I admit it has more flavor to it than "your sister", but maybe the 5-10% unsullied viewers who understand the reference better due to the change are worth it...?

And as for "fetch me a block" - man this really isn't that great of a quote on its own, and certainly not better than "get me my sword". The reason for why it is so popular is mainly the circumstances: Jon's original intention to hang(?) Slynt, his second thoughts and finally the reveal that he intends to behead him himself. For the show this inner conflict would be very hard to bring across (though they could have done something along those lines), so they left it out and used whatever sentence served well for the scene. Maybe they didn't even remember the exact quote because it didn't occur to them that this very sentence might be of some importance to some (and why should they?)...

Edited April 28, 2015 by kn1tt3r

[thegreenmanalishi83]

Foes and false friends surround me at every corner. They infest my city like roaches. Here, I know who my enemies are, and I am guest to his son's wedding. My son Wendel went to the twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with his friends. And they murdered him. Murdered I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I laugh and sing in the presence of Boltons and Freys, tis true. But never think that means I have forgotten. The North Remembers, dear Sansa. The North remembers and the mummer's farce is almost done...A Stark has returned to Winterfell, My Queen is home." - Read in the voice of Ian McNiece or Brian Blessed.

This is all I ever wanted from this season I think.

[thegreenmanalishi83]

Ok, better than last week I think. The HBW looked exactly as I pictured it in my mind. Jonathan Pryce was brilliant. Those 'top-tier' actors really stand out don't they?

I guess Littlefinger isn't truly concerned with Sansa's welfare otherwise he wouldn't be leaving her alone with Ramsay, unless he really is ignorant of his psychopathic tendencies?

[kefln]

I'm the first to admit that I like the show more than the books, but I also acknowledge that I don't share the same love that most readers do for the events in AFFC and ADWD - I couldn't stand the extra Greyjoys, Dorne, etc. and I've never liked Dany's chapters so there's obviously some bias on that side. But it's definitely disconcerting how people can't even voice a slight gripe about the show without what you described happening.

Yeah, complaining about changing the line to "Olly, get me my sword," is juvenile but several other things people have pointed out are completely valid. Even though I like the show more I'm worried about the handling of Cersei and Jon this season, along with the despair that comes with acknowledging that Manderly is out. (One of the parts of ADWD that I enjoyed. All of those Davos chapters, really.)

I like where things are headed with Sansa but I can certainly understand the concerns others have about it. Why do people have to dismiss those concerns without discussion?

I think its because nearly part of the series is being dissected over and over again.

There just seems to be a never ending list of complaints. This character isn't in the series, that line has been left out, this character isn't the same as the book, they are rushing this part, this other thing is taking too much time. Internet trolls have spent years spoiling as much as the can for those that never read the books. It all builds up.

For me the series is a TV adaption. It was never going to be the same. Like a lot of people I read the first book in the late nineties and we are still waiting for the story to end. Not to mention that not everything in those books is great. A lot of it could be easily cut. So I don't see the problem in the series giving the whole thing a dust off and new shine.

GOT is arguably the best advertisement for why I have spent 30 years or more reading Fantasy. It isn't all about silly men in hats firing lightening blots from their fingers. It can be gripping. It can have real drama. It can have real highs.

As far as I'm concerned this is the time for Fantasy fans to come out and promote the genre. Not spend so much time criticising every aspect of every scene. What non book reader didn't cry out during the Red wedding? What non book reader didn't fist pump to "Dracarys". Sayings like "Hodor", "Winter in coming", and "Valar morghulis" are now part of popular culture. People will be misquoting them along with "Luke, I am your father" for years to come. But the hard core fans, the ones that have been into ASOIF for years, seem to spend their time complaining things.

I just don't get it.

[hallam]

I think the changes all make perfect sense.

Loras is dead at this point in the books so having the High Sparrow off him to raise the stakes ahead of the Cersei trial makes much better use of him. Having the HS be friendly in this episode is to produce a contrast with his actions afterwards.

The High Sparrow seems to me to be modeled on Gerry Falwell/Pat Roberson, someone who is outwardly kind and humble but in reality an absolute and complete power crazed shit.

Cersei's interactions are those of someone who is completely incapable of seeing herself as others see her. She can see that the HS would go after Loras but quite incapable of seeing that her own twincest would be an even bigger issue. Going after Marg through her brother makes Cersei worse.

The Sansa plot is becoming interesting because we don't know what LF or Sansa are up to. Their on screen reasons don't make much sense so it is safe to assume both are concealing their true motives. I think LF's real plan is to off the Bolton's and make himself lord of Winterfell by marrying Sansa himself. And I think that LF is going to find that this time round he has met someone even more devious and scheming than himself.

I don't know what Sansa's plan is but I doubt it includes being a dutiful wife.

[RedShirt47]

^^ I agree.

What TV can do better than books such as music, locations, scenery, costumes, acting. GOT does very well.

The books do nuance, characterisation, build-up, background etc much better.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses. GOT is one of the largest casts on TV with a huge budget. And with all that it still has to simplify the story to fit it on screen.

I was reading an unsullied tv forum on other site earlier and they generally thought this episode was awesome. So the only conclusion I can draw from that is that the books themselves are causing some people to dislike the show. To me the books are the show are separate things and should be criticised thusly.

I am able to do this and am enjoying the show. I prefer some of the changes they've made to the books. Some I've preferred the book version.

As for this episoe I've been struggling to come up with a suitable reason why LF would want to ally with The Boltons. All I can come up with is revenge, not just for Sansa but for himself. Roose slit the throat of the woman he loved. I think he still hoped that with Ned out of the way he could woo Catelyn. But Roose ended that desire.

[Mithras]

As for this episoe I've been struggling to come up with a suitable reason why LF would want to ally with The Boltons. All I can come up with is revenge, not just for Sansa but for himself. Roose slit the throat of the woman he loved. I think he still hoped that with Ned out of the way he could woo Catelyn. But Roose ended that desire.

It looks like the Boltons will not stand against Stannis in the show. So, LF must prevent Stannis taking the North because after the North, his next target will be the Vale. Stannis has no reason to ally with LF and many reasons to burn him alive. So, LF is giving the Boltons what they need to stand against Stannis. He is using the Boltons to get rid of Stannis. If they defeat Stannis, LF will no doubt find a way to ditch the Boltons too.

[RedShirt47]

Is there any place where I can read/watch some fanatics comparing this episode to the book and what it all means?

AA Podcast on Youtube do a pretty good review. They do one for show only and one doing a show / book comparison. Both are pretty good. They are quite long though...

[Talking Hodor]

Ugh Roose and Ramsey. Brienne is totally going to avenge Renly.

Yeah, she may end up doing things to them no spearwife would even dream of.

[Cas Stark]

It looks like the Boltons will not stand against Stannis in the show. So, LF must prevent Stannis taking the North because after the North, his next target will be the Vale. Stannis has no reason to ally with LF and many reasons to burn him alive. So, LF is giving the Boltons what they need to stand against Stannis. He is using the Boltons to get rid of Stannis. If they defeat Stannis, LF will no doubt find a way to ditch the Boltons too.

I thought the prevailing idea was that LF plan was to betray the Boltons to Stannis? If his actual idea is that marrying Sansa into a family of ruthless, badass skin flaying torturers like the Boltons is going to help him, then that is extremely naive.