[Book Spoilers] EP503 Discussion

[olenna123]

It's the dynamic of the culture. Men rule WEsteros so women are objectified, but when we see women in power (Marg, Dani, Cersei), men are objectified.

It's even.

It's not even, that's my point. Why are you naming Marg and Cersei, I don't get your point?

[Dalpha]

Many believe that it's him trolling similar to how Lena was trolling about LSH. Especially since he said that it was specific to book readers just like LSH. Aegon seems very unlikely given the one who masterminds it in the books has declared himself for Dany on the show.

I guess so. I hope there is something to it though. If there is any truth to it, it would be Trystane, and that's how Jamie's actor would know about it. I'm not holding my breath though.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Dalpha

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

I guess so. I hope there is something to it though. If there is any truth to it, it would be Trystane, and that's how Jamie's actor would know about it. I'm not holding my breath though.

I think he was signaling that he was replacing Balon Swann's role.

A Duck was as close as a Swan as he could find.

[nara]

Does anyone else get the impression that D & D are a couple of perverts? Seriously, I think many of the actors and especially actresses must be annoyed with some of the shit that they have to do to get a paycheck on this show but really cannot say too much since it would be bitting the hand that feeds them.

Oh yes, definitely pervs. Full frontal female nudity for no real purpose. And to add insult to injury, they do it at the cost of really interesting stuff.

Surprisingly. I found myself enjoying this episode and the changes from the book not bothering me so much. Maybe.....I am past the grief, denial, and anger stages and finally accepting the TV version. The only scene that really annoyed me was ithe High Septon scene in the brothel. Too many nude prostitutes and I felt the show should be concentrating more on what brought the sparrows to King's Landing. It wasn't mainly due to the corruption and hypocrisy of the faith's leaders but the crown's indifference to the suffering of it's people during these years of war. i felt that needed to be emphasized more than it has been.

They wasted time on that scene that could have been used on the Jane's execution, including the original plan to hang him and then Jon remembering the Stark way. I always liked that part.

Anyonw else catch the fact that the High Septon was made to do A Walk of Shame? Hmm, telegraphing future events a bit here. A bit heavy handed of D&D in my opinion.

I thought it made sense actually because it makes the future walk of shame less misogynistic and more about the way they punish all people.

Well what's the big problem with making the change? Does Cersei's paranoia make less sense if there isn't that stark contrast between beautiful young cersei and horrifying Maggy?

To be honest I kinda liked the change, but I really like the more meta lines they include for book readers when they note the changes they're making, like "they said your noes had been cut off, it's not as gruesome as all that", "all your books and you don't know what people will do" and "they said you were terrifying; you're not terrifying, you're boring".

My objection to making her younger is that there are not many roles for older actresses, so why take away this one? Plot wise, it may not really matter.

The Wall scenes have been good so far this season. I give Kit Harington the most improved actor award.

Is it improved acting or is it just that the character is now allowed to do something other than sulk and scowl?

Mostly good about the changes made, even though I prefer the book version. Have come to accept that the show plots are not as tight (but they also didn't take 10 years to write each season).

One question --Why bother coloring Sansa's hair that awful color if they didn't really hide her as Alayne in the Vale or Winterfell?

[Ser Muradin the Small]

Just got home from work (it's like now I'm working during GoT time because... it's better for my sanity?)... no "Edd fetch me a block?"

Ah, ok.

"After all this time?"

"Yes, of course".

That's sooo below the line. But tbh, not including the block didn't bother me. Which is funny, seeing how pissed I was at the rather rushed election scene.

Good episode overall. Although Littlefinger having an owl network to insta deliver letters ruffled my feathers quite a lot than it should have. And how old is the show Tommen? Even last season he was talking to Margaery about the antics of Ser Pounce. Now he gets to consummate his marriage? :O

[Davrum]

Does anyone else get the impression that D & D are a couple of perverts? Seriously, I think many of the actors and especially actresses must be annoyed with some of the shit that they have to do to get a paycheck on this show but really cannot say too much since it would be bitting the hand that feeds them.

1000%. And if anything they're getting more pervy as they go. The latest episode, with practically a zoom to full frontal crotch shot of one of the ladies, followed by a backside shot of a man who is, shall we say, past his best (bless him), was so blatant it seemed almost to mock those who've called the show on its wild nudity imbalance in the past.

Not that I mind it that much, I'm a perv myself. But by now those who deny the show is pervy have no legs left to stand on.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Davrum

[Davrum]

Great episode all around. Sansa in Winterfell was even more brilliant than I could have imagined. Having a character we're invested in and have watched grow up in WF is so much better than having her sit around the Vale. Kudos to D&D. Better than the books here for sure. George should have done this himself.

:agree:

1000%

They don't get everything right, but they got that right. We still have to see what Littlefinger's exact thinking is, but so far I'm all for this particular change.

[Fisch]

Thoughts while watching:

- Still have mixed feelings about the expanded role of the Tyrells. The scene of post-coital chatting between Tommen and Marge was very well-done, but the bit of cattiness with Cersei went on too long.

- In the "Inside the Episode" for this one, D&D talk about how Cersei is now the Queen Mother, who has no defined role in governing the realm, making Cersei vulnerable to Marg's intrigues. The only reason an audience member would be aware of that is Littlefinger (and Kevan, last week) saying it out loud. That's what we're told. What we're shown is Cersei stacking the small council, arresting High Septons, giving orders to Littlefinger that demand immediate responses, and making deals with the Sparrows. Telling one thing while showing its opposite = bad filmmaking.

- They were doing so well - so well! - with Slynt's execution. Then they had to botch it by dragging out his groveling at the end. And the "Inside the Episode's" claim that this shows Jon finally realising that he has to do "what's necessary" (or wording to that effect) would hold more weight if ShowJon hadn't proven himself a very effective killing machine at this point. I imagine the way that this scene ends will only give fuel to those who persist in claiming that Jon's actions toward Slynt are "evil."

- To qualify the above: the episode was doing very well with the actual staging of the execution. But there is one problem with it. I've said before that I appreciated the show expanding Alliser's role, and reversing the dynamic between him and Slynt so that the latter is the lackey. But there was a consequence to this that I didn't anticipate - by downplaying Slynt's role so much, the show fails to build up tension and antagonism between him and Jon. Slynt was also never given a solid re-introduction when he appears at the Wall after being gone for a season and a half, so the shouting, blustering, entitled arrogance of his personality never settled in. His connections at court never got established either.

- No complaints about the Arya material - spot on execution.

- I really miss the Northern plot of ADwD, with Manderly and Dustin and all the rest, but I must admit that I'm quite excited to see how that story plays out with Sansa as the Stark bride.

[Davrum]

Thoughts while watching:

- Still have mixed feelings about the expanded role of the Tyrells. The scene of post-coital chatting between Tommen and Marge was very well-done, but the bit of cattiness with Cersei went on too long.

- In the "Inside the Episode" for this one, D&D talk about how Cersei is now the Queen Mother, who has no defined role in governing the realm, making Cersei vulnerable to Marg's intrigues. The only reason an audience member would be aware of that is Littlefinger (and Kevan, last week) saying it out loud. That's what we're told. What we're shown is Cersei stacking the small council, arresting High Septons, giving orders to Littlefinger that demand immediate responses, and making deals with the Sparrows. Telling one thing while showing its opposite = bad filmmaking.

- They were doing so well - so well! - with Slynt's execution. Then they had to botch it by dragging out his groveling at the end. And the "Inside the Episode's" claim that this shows Jon finally realising that he has to do "what's necessary" (or wording to that effect) would hold more weight if ShowJon hadn't proven himself a very effective killing machine at this point. I imagine the way that this scene ends will only give fuel to those who persist in claiming that Jon's actions toward Slynt are "evil."

- To qualify the above: the episode was doing very well with the actual staging of the execution. But there is one problem with it. I've said before that I appreciated the show expanding Alliser's role, and reversing the dynamic between him and Slynt so that the latter is the lackey. But there was a consequence to this that I didn't anticipate - by downplaying Slynt's role so much, the show fails to build up tension and antagonism between him and Jon. Slynt was also never given a solid re-introduction when he appears at the Wall after being gone for a season and a half, so the shouting, blustering, entitled arrogance of his personality never settled in. His connections at court never got established either.

- No complaints about the Arya material - spot on execution.

- I really miss the Northern plot of ADwD, with Manderly and Dustin and all the rest, but I must admit that I'm quite excited to see how that story plays out with Sansa as the Stark bride.

That's a great point about the consequence of downplaying Slynt's role. I thought the Marge beatdown of Cersei could have gone longer though, and the Arya sections were the least interesting of the episode.

As for Cersei's level of power, I think you're a little unfair on the filmmaking. To me the difference between what those two men thought about the amount of power Cersei had and the amount she actually displayed was somewhat intentional, and all about showing that she's being underestimated somewhat. At least by those two men. At least for now.

It's not as clear as it could be, especially since Kevan dismissed her as Queen Mother when she was actually still Queen Regent, and did have the power to stack the small council, but I'd stop short of calling it bad filmmaking.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Davrum

[Grail King]

"Yeah I know. But that still doesn't compare. Showing a naked man every once in a while (and not completely) doesn't change the fact that we see naked woman walking around in almost every episode now."

- Really? It's way better than season one's cringeworthy sexposition.

Damn, people forget that Alfie had his cock hanging, and grab by Roz, my wife loved that scene LOL.

But I did yawn with the HS in the brothel.

[Ebony and Weirwood]

A few thoughts on the sparrows and the brothel scene.

- While the HS in the brothel was largely sexposition (the crotch zoom wasn't necessary), it did set up a few key points in a few minutes in a show with only 10 hours for an intricate story. First, it showed corruption in the church and a lack of purity. This was done in the books but with a focus on wealth not whores. However, the focus on sexual impurity in this instance allows D&D to show how the sparrows treat and punish sexual impurity which sets up Cersei's punishment later this season. It also shows how radical and aggressive the sparrows are compared to the status quo. Was the nudity in the scene heavy handed? definitely. But did the scene serve an important purpose to the storyline? yes.

- I do worry that the sparrows will be played too radical in order to introduce some themes that weren't in the book as one commenter mentioned. Especially if Loras and maybe Olyver too as some have theorized.

- Also many have touched on how the show isn't focusing well on the war roots of the sparrows, but remember that that exposition in Feast was largely through Brienne's eyes as she traveled the Riverlands which I think would've been interesting to see but would've expanded an already large cast of billed actors. So the show had to go a different route to keep an already big budget from ballooning more.

[nara]

A few thoughts on the sparrows and the brothel scene.

- While the HS in the brothel was largely sexposition (the crotch zoom wasn't necessary), it did set up a few key points in a few minutes in a show with only 10 hours for an intricate story. First, it showed corruption in the church and a lack of purity. This was done in the books but with a focus on wealth not whores. However, the focus on sexual impurity in this instance allows D&D to show how the sparrows treat and punish sexual impurity which sets up Cersei's punishment later this season. It also shows how radical and aggressive the sparrows are compared to the status quo. Was the nudity in the scene heavy handed? definitely. But did the scene serve an important purpose to the storyline? yes.

I actually like the fact that they showed the Septon in the brothel to demonstrate his hypocrisy and corruption, rather than just referring to it. Show vs. Telling works for television. However, it's the choices they make in how to show stuff that sometimes bothers me. They seem to consistently show things in the most graphic manner possible, usually objectifying women. The crotch zoom in this case, the brothel scene with the unsullied in the first episode, the rape at Craster's Keep that they decided to show on screen (because apparently if they showed a girl being dragged into another room, we wouldn't have understood that she was being raped), etc. The rare exception is the mutilation and many scenes of torture for Theon. I don't think the answer is more male nudity, BTW, but I gotta wonder why lingering full frontal nudity was necessary to get the point across in this scene.

[Davrum]

Damn, people forget that Alfie had his cock hanging, and grab by Roz, my wife loved that scene LOL.

But I did yawn with the HS in the brothel.

Nooooo, nobody forgets that. Quite the opposite in fact. They remember it very well precisely because full frontal dude nudes on this show are so ridiculously rare compared to the ladynudes.

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

Nooooo, nobody forgets that. Quite the opposite in fact. They remember it very well precisely because full frontal dude nudes on this show are so ridiculously rare compared to the ladynudes.

Because when breasts or a vagina are exposed, it's like an angel floating down from heaven.

When a penis gets whipped out, it's like your drunk friend falling out of the back of the cab.

[LadySharpTeeth]

Any insights on what might happen to Littlefinger?

Cercei called him to KL and she knows they're busting up his businesses.

What's the game there? Is she out to get him?

bump

This is relevant to my interests.

Is she out to get him? Is she warning him? Is she asking for help? Book Cersei is a drowning woman grasping for rescue by this point. Maybe Carol wants to use Littlefinger against the Tyrells since Qyburn isn't the best Master of Whisperers.

[LadySharpTeeth]

Because when breasts or a vagina are exposed, it's like an angel floating down from heaven.

When a penis gets whipped out, it's like your drunk friend falling out of the back of the cab.

to you.

Half of all people might disagree.

[Davrum]

Because when breasts or a vagina are exposed, it's like an angel floating down from heaven.

When a penis gets whipped out, it's like your drunk friend falling out of the back of the cab.

I don't think you understand the concept of rareness. Or how often my drunk friend falls out of the back of a cab.

[Grail King]

Nooooo, nobody forgets that. Quite the opposite in fact. They remember it very well precisely because full frontal dude nudes on this show are so ridiculously rare compared to the ladynudes.

Well for my self woman look much better :)

[Deadwood]

It's not even, that's my point. Why are you naming Marg and Cersei, I don't get your point?

I know, my point is that I disagree and believe it is. Marg is a person of power and she objectifies men.

[Amber W]

On Cersei's power: I think Littlefinger and Kevan are right, and her days of power are mostly over. When we see her wielding influence we see it through her eyes, so it looks like she still has a lot of power. My guess is that people are working against her behind the scenes, and that a lot will come crashing down once she's arrested. This is obviously only speculation, but I think there's a chance Pycelle will turn against her soon, what with the continuous humiliations - maybe he'll plead for Margaery and/or help condemn Cersei?

I thought the execution could've been better. As others have suggested, Slynt's character wasn't reintroduced properly, and this wasn't half as satisfying as it could've been. This is the second time something that could've been a really big moment at the wall felt very underwhelming. I hope it means they're working up to even greater stuff, but I somehow doubt it.

I seriously wonder where the Winterfell plotline is going. From the novels I was convinced Littlefinger's endgame was having Sansa to himself, as well as even greater power than Brandon Stark ever had. Now he doesn't seem to care about Sansa at all, which feels rather confusing after they set up the whole 'I know what you want'-thing last season.

I agree with the people complaining about the unequal nudity. I thought the scene was a good idea, as it exposed a lot in just a couple of minutes, as was the fact that the Septon had to do the walk of shame; makes it less misogynistic and sets up Cersei's storyline well. However, putting those two scenes right after each other really highlighted the inequality and unnecessary female nudity. I somehow doubt they'll only show Lena Headey from the back...