[Book Spoilers] EP503 Discussion

[Davrum]

I know, my point is that I disagree and believe it is. Marg is a person of power and she objectifies men.

It's not about the attitude of the characters, it's about the presentation by the showmakers. It's about how physically exposed each character is on screen and about how the presentation by the showmakers fails to match the attitude of the characters consistently between men and women.

The nudity imbalance is so stark it's distracting. As a straight man I'm not about to complain that it's way, way, way in my favour, but the bias toward the naked womanly form is so blatant that not to understand the complaints of those who prefer the naked male form is to be willfully naive at this point.

[Deadwood]

It's not about the attitude of the characters, it's about the presentation by the showmakers. It's about how physically exposed each character is on screen and about how the presentation by the showmakers fails to match the attitude of the characters consistently between men and women.

The nudity imbalance is so stark it's distracting. As a straight man I'm not about to complain that it's way, way, way in my favour, but the bias toward the naked womanly form is so blatant that not to understand the complaints of those who prefer the naked male form is to be willfully naive at this point.

I have a different view, that's the culture being presented. In the time when they can stick men naked up there, they do, Olvyvar, Dario etc.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Crow'sEye

[Ajax Rules]

Olenna: can you explain why the show should be even in terms of male/female sexism?

It is a STORY about a FICTIVE sexist continent. You think that even fiction is not allowed to have sexism in it?

[Ajax Rules]

I even think that, in this era of super-realistic, edgy, dark, tv-shows, we will see full intercourse (erections, ejaculations, etc.) being shown in mainstream television shows.

I don't mean some kind of porn, but more realistic/graphic /explicit sex scenes when they are functional, relevant and included to begin with. I expect this within five years from now and would welcome it very much.

[Deadwood]

I think Theon has had some realistic sex scenes, and they are (were :D ) not shy about showing his todger.

[Roose is Azor Ahai]

I think Theon has had some realistic sex scenes, and they are (were :D ) not shy about showing his todger.

Season 1 with Ros and Season 2 with the girl in the ship.

[Nilan8888]

So I've been thinking about this, and I fail to see why this is not a perfectly fine move for LF. I think a lot of people are just against this because it didn't happen in the books. but it DOES make sense.

Firstly, as much as we like to think LF just knows everything about everyone, that's just not humanly possible, not in the books, not in the show. Despite his dealings with the Starks, LF is an Andal/Braavosi, and only knows their culture and their nobility second hand, just as he would with the Martells. This would mean he'd know about the RW, and that the Boltons once skinned their enemies at least 400 years ago (in our own time, 400 years ago was back before the United States was even a country), but otherwise he doesn't know as much as he'd know about the lords of the Vale, Riverlands or Crownlands.

But would not knowing a noble family prevent him from acting on an opportunity? I doubt it: given that LF doesn't know the Boltons are psychopaths, this shouldn't seem as risky from his POV as many of his other moves: he's had to rely on traitorous murderers before -- Janos Slynt, the Kettleblacks, and even Lysa herself. He may have known Lysa from childhood, but he also directed her to murder her husband and turn her back on her sister, her brother AND her father (and against her uncle as well), while she was clearly a loose cannon and on her own at the Eyrie without him present there. A whole lot could have easily gone wrong with her not where he could not easily supervise.

And if the Boltons weren't psychopaths, which isn't clear to LF, this would be a less risky move. The Boltons are in a precarious position with the former Stark bannermen, and this would be clear to LF at least. LF can provide the Boltons with a Stark, and potentially, for all they know, armed support from the Vale (this would actually not be easy for LF, but the Boltons wouldn't know that). Unlike the Lannisters, the Arryns have been more apt to send armies into the North, if only as far as White Harbor. This is actually a potential boon for LF, so I can see his logic. The Boltons need him more than the Tyrells ever did, for instance, and although he knows they're potentially treacherous, the Boltons have no inroads into the Eyrie, and they were good enough allies to the Starks until they were put into a losing war with at least two other Houses turning traitor because of internal politics (the Karstarks and the Freys).

Yes, the situation is actually much worse than that for LF in this deal. But LF is unlikely to know that, and based on his dealings with the Starks (who these men once answered to) even book LF would likely see an opportunity to exploit, and be overconfident in exploiting it.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Nilan8888

[Mish Windage]

bump

This is relevant to my interests.

Is she out to get him? Is she warning him? Is she asking for help? Book Cersei is a drowning woman grasping for rescue by this point. Maybe Carol wants to use Littlefinger against the Tyrells since Qyburn isn't the best Master of Whisperers.

All I can come up with is she wants Littlefinger to testify against certain people who have used his brothels, Or, the money situation is so bad (she sent lord dummy with guard dirty-work... I'm assuming Mr. Tyrell isn't expected to come back as master of coin...) that she needs Pete Bailout for his funny money tricks.

Even though they had that threat scene (knowledge is power... power is power) I don't *Think* she sees him as a threat, really... just another player she has to work with/against at different times.

I'm not sure what the Dowager Queen has to offer Pete anymore though. No gold, lands seem to be all awarded out... not sure.

[Stonehearted Snake]

I agree with the people complaining about the unequal nudity. I thought the scene was a good idea, as it exposed a lot in just a couple of minutes, as was the fact that the Septon had to do the walk of shame; makes it less misogynistic and sets up Cersei's storyline well. However, putting those two scenes right after each other really highlighted the inequality and unnecessary female nudity. I somehow doubt they'll only show Lena Headey from the back...

From what I've read there will be a body double (that was widely reported) and James Hibberd reported that the double would be wearing a "pubic wig." I've heard that in the past some of the male frontal nudity was actually just a fake model that was attached, like in Hodor's outdoor bath scene.

ETA: I guess the writers at the Daily Beast are just as concerned as us! http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/29/game-of-thrones-peen-problem.html

Edited April 29, 2015 by Stonehearted Snake

[Janicia]

All I can come up with is she wants Littlefinger to testify against certain people who have used his brothels, Or, the money situation is so bad (she sent lord dummy with guard dirty-work... I'm assuming Mr. Tyrell isn't expected to come back as master of coin...) that she needs Pete Bailout for his funny money tricks.

Even though they had that threat scene (knowledge is power... power is power) I don't *Think* she sees him as a threat, really... just another player she has to work with/against at different times.

I'm not sure what the Dowager Queen has to offer Pete anymore though. No gold, lands seem to be all awarded out... not sure.

I think Cersei is gathering allies to make a move against Margaery. Clearly that was her intention with the High Sparrow, but I think that's also what she wants Littlefinger for.

From Cersei's perspective, Littlefinger has a pretty good track record. He was clearly competent with the realm's finances. He orchestrated her power move against Ned in season 1. He brokered the Tyrell alliance that saved her from Stannis in season 2. He ferreted out and revealed the Tyrell plot to steal Sansa in season 3. He helped keep Lysa and the Vale in the Lannister fold during the war. Littlefinger was generally aligned with Cersei and Joffrey against Tyrion in season 2, while Varys was aligned with Tyrion. Littlefinger had Tywin's stamp of approval (Tywin rewarded him with Harrenhal and approval for the Lysa marriage).

So Cersei thinks of Littlefinger as a long-term henchman / ally, who has been well vetted and amply rewarded for his services. And Cersei working with Littlefinger makes a lot of sense for the show, instead of bringing in the various tertiary characters from this point in the books that Cersei makes the mistake of trusting.

It is ironic that Cersei has been throwing away the one actual Lannister henchman with brains that she inherited from Tywin: Pycelle. I'm looking forward to the final Pycelle / Cersei falling out that the show has clearly been moving toward.

[dbunting]

have to agree that they should have shown the High Septon from the front. I mean that is the whole point of the walk of shame. If he was shy they could use a body double or prosthetic, like with Hodor("he has a little giant blood in him!")But to me, for reality sake he should have been shown.

Showing Cersei doing the same walk and showing her from the waist down will not make sense.

As far as why they are more willing to show women than men, well...it's the standard we live in right now and have since cinema first started showing nudity. You can show a woman fully nude and still not see the uhh..best parts(?) because of the hair or camera angle. If a man is nude, it's all out there, nothing is hidden. To me I think that is what the big difference is. If they were showing a woman nude, between her legs so ALL was visible, then they absolutely would be showing males nude more freely.

This wins for my weirdest post ever.

[Facebookless Man]

edited out because didnt apply to show...

Edited April 29, 2015 by Facebookless Man

[olenna123]

Olenna: can you explain why the show should be even in terms of male/female sexism?

It is a STORY about a FICTIVE sexist continent. You think that even fiction is not allowed to have sexism in it?

I think that there is a way to show this is a fictional sexist universe without having a sexist presentation in it. Do you really believe we wouldn't notice that woman aren't allowed to have any power in Westeros without seeing them walk around naked every week? There is a difference between showing sexism and endorsing it.

This article sums up my thoughts: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/29/game-of-thrones-peen-problem.html

[Deadwood]

Littlefinger is a plate-spinner, not omniscient. He is perhaps the best plate-spinner in the entire show. Quite understandable considering his steady rise to power and temperate disposition. The question is, how many plates can he maintain for how long.

[Iron Maiden Islands]

1. HouseHarrisons review is by far the most enjoyable - thanks for that!

2. I'm getting tired of people shouting "If you don't like the show, don't watch it, stupid!" A while ago, you only read those comments on winteriscoming.org. Then they spread to watchersonthewall.com. Now here. What's the purpose? How boring would it be to read a forum where everybody loves the show

I imagine the forum would be far more enjoyable without people who don't like the show and watch the show for the sole purpose of coming to his forum to complain about it.

I watched the first 2 seasons of Homeland, after which I thought "wow, this show is stupid!". Instead of going to a Homeland forum to complain about how bad the show is, I STOPPED WATCHING the show that I didn't enjoy watching. Novel concept.

[The Lizard King]

One thing I absolutely loved was the fact that Sweetrobin got dropped off with the ultimate badass Yohn Royce. So in my head cannon now, Stannis and Jon come south only to be beaten by the Boltons... then when all seems lost and on the eve of Ramsay's wedding to Sansa, Sweetrobin single handedly storms the castle... Kicking ass, taking names, and sucking on some titties... (cuz you know he can't completely change.)

LOL

[The Lizard King]

I think he was signaling that he was replacing Balon Swann's role.

A Duck was as close as a Swan as he could find.

And I think that Bronn is replacing Arys Oakheart's role, too.

[nara]

And I think that Bronn is replacing Arys Oakheart's role, too.

I'm wondering if Bronn will also take on the role of telling Jaime about Cersei's infidelity with Lancel. Something has to happen to make Jaime finally break up with Cersei.

On a side note, I kinda miss the part in Tommen's wedding when Cersei and Jaime were terrified about Tyrion jumping out and killing him. And then Cersei refused to dance with Jaime. Utterly unimportant to the plot and they were probably right not to include it, but I liked their vulnerability as parents in that moment and then immediately wanted to throttle Cersei for being such a jerk.

[Davrum]

I have a different view, that's the culture being presented. In the time when they can stick men naked up there, they do, Olvyvar, Dario etc.

It doesn't matter what the culture is that's being presented, the choices in how to present that culture are not pre-ordained. The showmakers are choosing an imbalanced presentation when such a presentation is not even remotely close to necessary in order to present an imbalanced culture.

That's why the choices they make are the choices of straight male pervs. As a straight male perv myself I enjoy it quite a bit, but it's just goofy to pretend it's not an unnecessarily, primarily straight male pervy show in that regard.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Davrum

[Overlord of Skagos]

It doesn't matter what the culture is that's being presented, the choices in how to present that culture are not pre-ordained. The showmakers are choosing an imbalanced presentation when such a presentation is not even remotely close to necessary in order to present an imbalanced culture.

That's why the choices they make are the choices of straight male pervs. As a straight male perv myself I enjoy it quite a bit, but it's just goofy to pretend it's not an unnecessarily, primarily straight male pervy show in that regard.

what imbalance? All we got was a bit of bush covering the area comparing that to showing full frontal pillar and stones is nonsense in my opinion.