[Book Spoilers] EP503 Discussion

[dieseldda]

In regards to Sansa, I think what LF is doing makes sense, though it is a gamble. Here's what he knows..

1) He knows there is no love for the Boltons in the north, making their hold of Winterfell tenuous as bests.

2) He knows the Lannisters, Bolton's biggest ally, is in rapid decline, leaving the Tyrells, his ally, top dog in King's Landing.

3) He believes the two Stark boys are dead.

4) He knows Stannis is at the wall with Sansa's half brother and will be marching south.

So given this knowledge, there are two scenarios I think LF would anticipate that could play out in Winterfell, and they both revolve around Stannis.

1) Stannis takes Winterfell. Because Stannis knows that only a Stark can hold WF, he would leave Sansa as Lord and dispose of Ramsey, giving him the North. Sansa would then lie her teeth off as she did in the Vale, claiming Littlefinger and the Vale is with her, citing their inactivity in their wars of the south, and have his allegiance.

2) The Boltons beat Stannis. Less likely, but if the Boltons were to win the battle, they'd be severely weakened. The Vale could, afterwards, invade the North at full strength in surprise and dispose of the Boltons. We all know the lords of the Vale like the Starks after Ned's stewardship so they'd have no problem defending Sansa, and the Tyrells in Kings Landing wouldn't care, because they also highly regard Sansa and would prefer a Lannister ally tossed out, anyway.

To help his cause, I believe it will be Littlefinger, not Jon, who sends in the spear wives to protect Sansa, wreak havoc on Wintefell. Ramsey will capture them, blame Jon, and send a letter threatening him furthering Jon's story arc. Does Littlefinger know what a vicious little twat Ramsey is? Probably not. It's a gamble. But no guts, no glory.

[Tolsimir]

In regards to Sansa, I think what LF is doing makes sense, though it is a gamble. Here's what he knows..

1) He knows there is no love for the Boltons in the north, making their hold of Winterfell tenuous as bests.

2) He knows the Lannisters, Bolton's biggest ally, is in rapid decline, leaving the Tyrells, his ally, top dog in King's Landing.

3) He believes the two Stark boys are dead.

4) He knows Stannis is at the wall with Sansa's half brother and will be marching south.

So given this knowledge, there are two scenarios I think LF would anticipate that could play out in Winterfell, and they both revolve around Stannis.

1) Stannis takes Winterfell. Because Stannis knows that only a Stark can hold WF, he would leave Sansa as Lord and dispose of Ramsey, giving him the North. Sansa would then lie her teeth off as she did in the Vale, claiming Littlefinger and the Vale is with her, citing their inactivity in their wars of the south, and have his allegiance.

2) The Boltons beat Stannis. Less likely, but if the Boltons were to win the battle, they'd be severely weakened. The Vale could, afterwards, invade the North at full strength in surprise and dispose of the Boltons. We all know the lords of the Vale like the Starks after Ned's stewardship so they'd have no problem defending Sansa, and the Tyrells in Kings Landing wouldn't care, because they also highly regard Sansa and would prefer a Lannister ally tossed out, anyway.

To help his cause, I believe it will be Littlefinger, not Jon, who sends in the spear wives to protect Sansa, wreak havoc on Wintefell. Ramsey will capture them, blame Jon, and send a letter threatening him furthering Jon's story arc. Does Littlefinger know what a vicious little twat Ramsey is? Probably not. It's a gamble. But no guts, no glory.

There's just one problem with that. None of your scenarios requires LF to leave the Vale and marry Sansa to the Boltons. Just wait it out and then make your move. It's just bad writing. The writers wanted a situation and they made it, even if it doesn't make sense.

[The One And Only]

I keep coming back to the thought, why would LF trust Sansa out of his control. He betrayed her father, she knows he betrayed her father, he knows she knows he betrayed her father. It is absurd that LF would trust her out of his eye

I have heard this point made a few times. I don't think people are giving the show writers enough credit.

They have shown multiple times that Littlefinger has no attachments and can freely manipulate the events as he wants. He even manipulated Lady Arryn and had zero feelings for her. This makes him very powerful and dangerous, as everybody in Westeros has something to lose.

Enter Sansa Stark. She reminds him of Cat. And that was the one person he truly loved. So now Littlefinger isn't so dangerous. He is letting his person feelings get in the way of sound judgement. This is why they continue to show him try and kiss Sansa over and over. To get the point through that Littlefinger has been mentally compromised.

[Philpenn]

High Sparrow seems old enough to be Ned's father.

Guess that would fit in with aging up all the characters then right?

[Mithras]

Guess that would fit in with aging up all the characters then right?

Aging the characters up =/= pushing a character a generation back compared to the others.

[Philpenn]

For the record, I'm not sold on it. Just something to discuss.

[Mithras]

For the record, I'm not sold on it. Just something to discuss.

The High Sparrow in the books is an amoral power player. He takes pleasure from whipping himself for his sins. The only person who did a similar thing was Septon Utt, who was a Bloody Mummer, who asked to be whipped after raping and killing boys.

So, no. I see no reason to take this person as Howland.

[Weeping Sore]

No, it's because HBO and others aren't rated as adult entertainment, they can't show erections. LOL

This is actually not true. A 2012 FCC ruling stated that there are no legal restrictions on what the pay cable channels can or can't show, skin-wise. The erect penis is just a taboo.

[The One And Only]

The High Sparrow is there right now to show how bad of a ruler Cersei is. That she is willing to give away power just to spite others.

I'm sure The High Sparrow will play a different role in the future, but that is what his entire introduction is for.

As for the nudity.... We don't need to see erect penises on screen. It adds nothing to the story. Just like we don't need to see a wet pussy on screen either. Nudity is fine.

[Philpenn]

So, no. I see no reason to take this person as Howland.

Support I've read/heard is he's small like Howland is, first shows up post Red Wedding, and by doing this is able to amass a very large army.

[The One And Only]

One thing I noticed from the books, and the show makes much more clear....

When the Targaryan's ruled, there was a true method to their madness.

• Jaehaerys I abolished the Faith Militant. We can see why, because as soon as they come back, they cause problems for the crown.
  
• The Targaryan's wed brother and sister to keep the blood line pure. This kept other houses from having a claim to the crown. Look at how House Tyrell is sinking their claws into the power at King's Landing. There might be a blood magic element of this as well.
  
• Some of the King's killed their bastards. As we can see from The Red Priest, there is power in King's blood.
  
• Speeking of the Red Priests, the Targaryan's did not allow them. Thoros tried to get The Mad King to join his ways and was turned away.
  

[Weeping Sore]

As for the nudity.... We I don't need to see erect penises on screen.

Speak for yourself, sir. Some of us find the artful elision and awkward blocking of sex scenes to avoid showing male junk and the flaccid-only-by-unwritten-rule on the rare occassions when it does appear to be...lacking in versimilitude? I think pay-cable viewers are not so fragile that they would faint at the occasional sight of a hard cock.

[Dornishwoman's Husband]

Lancel has became such a badass after he joined the sparrows and arrested High Septon for whoring.

[StepStark]

You keep saying that Littlefinger is stupid for leaving Sansa in Roose Bolton's hands, but I don't understand why. Yes, Sansa is a valuable piece in the game, and Littlefinger is using that piece to gain an allegiance with the North. He doesn't really lose anything, but he gains a great deal. Roose Bolton, though not entirely trustworthy, is an opportunist, which makes him easy to read. He won't betray Littlefinger unless he's given a better offer. Littlefinger is offering him a Stark which will solidify his rule in the North and is the only current ally Roose Bolton has. So I ask again, what reason would Bolton have to betray Littlefinger?

As to the bolded, I already said I don't know how the storyline is going to go. I was only providing options that Littlefinger possesses to further his ambitions.

If you don't understand why its better to have something that is valuable with you than to give it away there really is no way anybody can explain that to you. Sansa is not his daughter and she is not his sister and practically she is nothing to him and that means that as soon as she isn't under his wing any more he doesn't have any control over her. She is extremely valuable to him but only if she is under his control and right now, after he delivered her to Roose, he doesn't have any control over her any more. The only control he can have is what you apologists make up but in reality there is no control over Sansa by Littlefinger any more. Littlefinger left Robin and now he left Sansa so that means he gave up his best claim on the vale and his best claim on the north in just few episodes. And about Boltons what really do they owe Littlefinger any more? They owe nothing to him any more once they have Sansa. This is rather shocking to see so many of you defending all the stupid things this show keep doing every episode but this thing with Sansa and Ramsay takes the cake clearly. If you think that isn't stupid than most definitely nothing will ever be stupid for you. And if you aren't able to recognize any stupidity in the show then please tell me how can you not be apologist?

[Lovely Lyanna]

Speak for yourself, sir. Some of us find the artful elision and awkward blocking of sex scenes to avoid showing male junk and the flaccid-only-by-unwritten-rule on the rare occassions when it does appear to be...lacking in versimilitude? I think pay-cable viewers are not so fragile that they would faint at the occasional sight of a hard cock.

I do not think the problem lies with the nudity itself. It is just that the scenes are rather pointless in that they do not move the storyline along. Time is very limited with the show and I do not wish to see minor characters naked or otherwise. Personally I do not mind nudity in general, but I do find it a waste of very limited time in this particular instance. Now having said that, the only time the nude scenes really worked were with Oberyn in the brothel. Those scenes were hilarious. I died laughing when he said to Oliver, "Are you calling my beauty an acquired taste." I still crack up whenever I think of it. I also liked the scene where Tywin walked in on Oberyn and the naked whores had to walk by the very straight laced Tywin Lannister. Now that was hilarious. I wonder if they put it on their resumes. I walked by Tywin Lannister naked on HBO's "Game of Thrones".

[Stonehearted Snake]

I also liked the scene where Tywin walked in on Oberyn and the naked whores had to walk by the very straight laced Tywin Lannister. Now that was hilarious. I wonder if they put it on their resumes. I walked by Tywin Lannister naked on HBO's "Game of Thrones".

One of the very funniest moment of the season if not the series to date. I love the next part too when Oberyn offers Tywin a seat. Classic!

[Weeping Sore]

Don't forget it turned out the very straight-laced Tywin Lannister bedded at least one whore.

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

One thing I noticed from the books, and the show makes much more clear....

When the Targaryan's ruled, there was a true method to their madness.

• Jaehaerys I abolished the Faith Militant. We can see why, because as soon as they come back, they cause problems for the crown.

The Targaryan's wed brother and sister to keep the blood line pure. This kept other houses from having a claim to the crown. Look at how House Tyrell is sinking their claws into the power at King's Landing. There might be a blood magic element of this as well.

Some of the King's killed their bastards. As we can see from The Red Priest, there is power in King's blood.

Speeking of the Red Priests, the Targaryan's did not allow them. Thoros tried to get The Mad King to join his ways and was turned away.

You'd think the Mad King would be fully erect at the notion of a fire god.

[The One And Only]

Tywin & Tyrion are exactly alike. The only difference is that Tyrion was a drawf and Tywin kept his whores private.

As for the nudity.... I am watching the show for the content, not for the pornography of it. I have no problem with porn. I just want to keep it as porn. Mathew Weiner (creater of Mad Men) has said that nudity is distracting to him when he is watching a show. I tend to agree. As others have pointed out with Oberyn, sometimes the nudity is needed to tell the story. And I am fine with that. I just don't see the purpose of it when it doesn't have something to do with the plot.

[The One And Only]

You'd think the Mad King would be fully erect at the notion of a fire god.

Yes, but I think the Targaryan's knew their true powers and knew to stay away. That is my theory anyways....