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[Book Spoilers] EP503 Discussion

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And I think that Bronn is replacing Arys Oakheart's role, too.

I'm wondering if Bronn will also take on the role of telling Jaime about Cersei's infidelity with Lancel. Something has to happen to make Jaime finally break up with Cersei.

On a side note, I kinda miss the part in Tommen's wedding when Cersei and Jaime were terrified about Tyrion jumping out and killing him. And then Cersei refused to dance with Jaime. Utterly unimportant to the plot and they were probably right not to include it, but I liked their vulnerability as parents in that moment and then immediately wanted to throttle Cersei for being such a jerk.

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I have a different view, that's the culture being presented. In the time when they can stick men naked up there, they do, Olvyvar, Dario etc.

It doesn't matter what the culture is that's being presented, the choices in how to present that culture are not pre-ordained. The showmakers are choosing an imbalanced presentation when such a presentation is not even remotely close to necessary in order to present an imbalanced culture.

That's why the choices they make are the choices of straight male pervs. As a straight male perv myself I enjoy it quite a bit, but it's just goofy to pretend it's not an unnecessarily, primarily straight male pervy show in that regard.

Edited by Davrum

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It doesn't matter what the culture is that's being presented, the choices in how to present that culture are not pre-ordained. The showmakers are choosing an imbalanced presentation when such a presentation is not even remotely close to necessary in order to present an imbalanced culture.

That's why the choices they make are the choices of straight male pervs. As a straight male perv myself I enjoy it quite a bit, but it's just goofy to pretend it's not an unnecessarily, primarily straight male pervy show in that regard.

what imbalance? All we got was a bit of bush covering the area comparing that to showing full frontal pillar and stones is nonsense in my opinion.

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How can anybody says that Sansa+Ramsay makes any sense at all? First of all why the fuck would Littlefinger ever let her go when in season 3 Tywin Lannister had to organize a wedding to Tyrion in a hurry just to prevent Tyrells from marrying Sansa to Loras. Is Littlefinger that much more stupid then Tywin? Who with half the brain would ever let his the most valuable possession be married into another family? How can anybody say that it makes sense when it absolutely doesn't?


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The only dissappointment for me is Brienne's storyline. I hope they are not setting her up to be the one to kill Stannis. That would be unforgivable.

I'm not too worried. Revenge missions never end up well in this universe.

My speculation on Brienne and Pod is thus: If they're captured by Stannis, they'll serve a function similar to Asha Greyjoy. If they're captured by the Boltons, they'll likely fill book Mance's role. Obviously, the latter would be a way worse deal for those two. I'd hate to see Brienne wearing a Pod skin blanket.

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StepStark,

Let me try to make sense of it. The show has made a point of showing that LF doesn't know about Ramsay's sadistic streak. I think he looked at the situation and made the calculation that the Lannisters are heading for a fall and whoever rules in the north will be in an excellent position to take the whole ball of wax. I think he figures that he is making a win-win proposition in which he is only putting Sansa's life in jeopardy. If Stannis beats the Boltons he can count on the king's honor and need for allies in the north to assure an alliance. If the Boltons prevail, then he has supported them from the beginning and all he has to do is off Roose and I think he feels confident that he can control the psycho Ramsay with the help of Sansa.

So that is the logic behind the play. The other part of the equation is, what other plays does LF have available to him? He could take Sansa to the Wall, but what would that get him? The appreciation of a LC that took an oath not to involve himself in the wars of men. No Thanks! Also anyplace he takes Sansa, he is putting himself at risk. If Cersei finds out Sansa is alive and being hidden by LF I'm sure LF would be thrown in the black cells or worse.

Lastly... and this part is based on my theory that LF=PR Piotr Reigns. If my theory is correct, LF has been playing a long game to screw the Lannisters as hard and deep as possible. If that is the case, there are few families strong enough to do the Lannisters in.

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It doesn't matter what the culture is that's being presented, the choices in how to present that culture are not pre-ordained. The showmakers are choosing an imbalanced presentation when such a presentation is not even remotely close to necessary in order to present an imbalanced culture.

That's why the choices they make are the choices of straight male pervs. As a straight male perv myself I enjoy it quite a bit, but it's just goofy to pretend it's not an unnecessarily, primarily straight male pervy show in that regard.

I'lljust agree to disagree then.

I imagine the forum would be far more enjoyable without people who don't like the show and watch the show for the sole purpose of coming to his forum to complain about it.

I watched the first 2 seasons of Homeland, after which I thought "wow, this show is stupid!". Instead of going to a Homeland forum to complain about how bad the show is, I STOPPED WATCHING the show that I didn't enjoy watching. Novel concept.

The problem I have is that so many have such illogical and limited understanding of a great many things, adapting a complex work like Ice and Fire primary amongst them that there is nothing to be gained from debate, since understanding is in short supply. I tend to ignore the more laborious ones, but they tend to try and invest a lot threads. Even the casting threads which I favour.

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StepStark,

Let me try to make sense of it. The show has made a point of showing that LF doesn't know about Ramsay's sadistic streak. I think he looked at the situation and made the calculation that the Lannisters are heading for a fall and whoever rules in the north will be in an excellent position to take the whole ball of wax. I think he figures that he is making a win-win proposition in which he is only putting Sansa's life in jeopardy. If Stannis beats the Boltons he can count on the king's honor and need for allies in the north to assure an alliance. If the Boltons prevail, then he has supported them from the beginning and all he has to do is off Roose and I think he feels confident that he can control the psycho Ramsay with the help of Sansa.

So that is the logic behind the play. The other part of the equation is, what other plays does LF have available to him? He could take Sansa to the Wall, but what would that get him? The appreciation of a LC that took an oath not to involve himself in the wars of men. No Thanks! Also anyplace he takes Sansa, he is putting himself at risk. If Cersei finds out Sansa is alive and being hidden by LF I'm sure LF would be thrown in the black cells or worse.

Lastly... and this part is based on my theory that LF=PR Piotr Reigns. If my theory is correct, LF has been playing a long game to screw the Lannisters as hard and deep as possible. If that is the case, there are few families strong enough to do the Lannisters in.

But what he does know or doesn't know about Ramsay doesn't matter because the move is stupid either way. Tywin didn't want to give Sansa away to Tyrells and no there are no sadists among Tyrells. It's only worse because of how sadistic Ramsay is but even without that Littlefinger's decision makes no sense. You don't give away someone as valuable as Sansa because it is stupid. The show established how important Sansa is and now Littlefinger is just giving her away? Sorry but no there is no sense in that at all. Why would he ever take Sansa anywhere from the vale? Why would he ever leave the vale at the first place after all he did to get it? It is absolutely unreasonable what he did in the show.

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ill just paste this from another thread:

I was completely disappointed by the lack of the famous quote. they ruined my most anticipated moment for this season. I found it ridiculous how Edd ( or whom ever forced Slynt outside) knew that he was gonna get beheaded right away and quickly prepared the block. Also i didn't like how Jon casually continued drinking and then casually went outside like he was gonna do something he was used to (executing nobles). This was a very fast and unjustified character development compared to the books. I already watched the episode when it was leaked and waited till this moment expecting a lot of uproar from the community. i was disappointed again.

Funny, I had just the opposite reaction.

Calling for his sword was much more personal, and powerful than a block, for the Unsullied, because it immediately made clear he would be the one carrying out the sentence.

I didn't think Jon was 'casually continuing to drink, then casually went outside.' I didn't see anything casual about it. I saw a young man who was forced into the position of taking a man's life due to insubordination and disrespect over a very long period. Kit played the conflict of the situation to perfection. Even up to the end when Slynt was begging of mercy.

Brilliant and very satisfying scene. Not to mention some amazing effects for that beheading angle.

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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Littlefinger has done plenty of risky things from the beginning. He's Littlefinger. All his plays are Hail Mary plays.



We don't know what his end game is yet, but when it's revealed, it's likely that this marriage will prove to have been a crucial part in it. In that light, the only thing "problematic" is his willingness to treat Sansa as collateral...except that's not problematic at all, because Littlefinger putting his ambitions ahead of everything else is perfectly in character.



The only part I find a little ropey is how quickly Sansa was convinced. However, the show leaves room for Littlefinger to have expounded on how avenging her family might work, exactly, during the ride between Moat Cailin and Winterfell.


Edited by Udvarnoky

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Littlefinger has done plenty of risky things from the beginning. He's Littlefinger. All his plays are Hail Mary plays.

We don't know what his end game is yet, but when it's revealed, it's likely that this marriage will prove to have been a crucial part in it. In that light, the only thing "problematic" is his willingness to treat Sansa as collateral...except that's not problematic at all, because Littlefinger putting his ambitions ahead of everything else is perfectly in character.

Giving Sansa away is not only risky it is extremely stupid and it is surprising how many people are willing to defend something that is so stupid. Maybe he doesn't care about Sansa's life like you say but anybody with half brain would care for Sansa because of her name and who she is. Only idiot would give something like that away. And compare his decision to Tywin's reaction and see how stupid is Littlefinger's decision.

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Giving Sansa away is not only risky it is extremely stupid and it is surprising how many people are willing to defend something that is so stupid. Maybe he doesn't care about Sansa's life like you say but anybody with half brain would care for Sansa because of her name and who she is. Only idiot would give something like that away. And compare his decision to Tywin's reaction and see how stupid is Littlefinger's decision.

I don't really disagree with you but I also don't think show!LF is anywhere near as smart as book!LF and he is also a helluva lot more reckless. Always has been-- remember his snarky comment to Cersei about power back in season 1? Book!LF would never say something so obviously mustache-twirly. So I agree that it is a stupid decision but it doesn't seem all that out of character for him in the context of his actions and statements on the show.

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Giving Sansa away is not only risky it is extremely stupid and it is surprising how many people are willing to defend something that is so stupid. Maybe he doesn't care about Sansa's life like you say but anybody with half brain would care for Sansa because of her name and who she is. Only idiot would give something like that away. And compare his decision to Tywin's reaction and see how stupid is Littlefinger's decision.

You could say he was an idiot for deciding to lie about the dagger when he was shown it in Season 1. There were plenty of ways that could have gone wrong that would have wound up with him executed. Same goes for plotting to kill the king with the Tyrells, or with trusting that Sansa would bail him out in front of Royce after Lysa's murder.

Littlefinger takes massive risks for the potential of massive gains. He puts it all on the line, every time. It's disingenuous to accept all those instances in the past and suddenly take umbrage with it now.

Tywin's reasons for wanting to hold onto Sansa don't adapt to Baelish, whose strategy to gain power involves manipulating others and pitting them against each other. Tywin was the head of an already powerful family looking to establish a long-term dynasty. Baelish is/was a nobody who's climbing the latter by orchestrating things behind-the-scenes.

Finally, isn't it also risky for Littlefinger to hold on to Sansa? If Cersei finds out he had her, he's completely boned. There seems to be an implicit understanding between Roose and Littlefinger that Roose will keep that secret for him. Littlefinger's walking a very treacherous line regardless of what he does.

Edited by Udvarnoky

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You could say he was an idiot for deciding to lie about the dagger when he was shown it in Season 1. There were plenty of ways that could have gone wrong that would have wound up with him executed. Same goes for plotting to kill the king with the Tyrells, or with trusting that Sansa would bail him out in front of Royce after Lysa's murder.

Littlefinger takes massive risks for the potential of massive gains. He puts it all on the line, every time.

Tywin's reasons for wanting to hold onto Sansa don't adapt to Baelish, whose strategy to gain power involves manipulating others and pitting them against each other.

Finally, isn't it also risky for Littlefinger to hold on to Sansa? If Cersei finds out he had her, he's completely boned.

You are mixing apples and oranges here. There is no way that his lie about dagger is anything similar to giving Sansa to another family and it is ridiculous to compare it. Giving Sansa away is not risky but stupid and lie about dagger is opposite because it was risky but smart. And also killing Joff was risky but smart because it created chaos among Lannisters and by the way he did it without exposing himself too much. But this thing with Sansa is so stupid its monumental. And not just because of the risk but because there is nothing he can get from that while he can loose everything. If he loses Sansa he loses his most valuable possession and he doesn't have any reason to gamble with that. And by the way of course Tywin was in different position but Tywin's reaction shows that someone as valuable as Sansa is never given away.

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You're justifying his prior crazy decisions based on their end result. We don't know what end result Littlefinger is hoping to achieve just yet.


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No matter what he wants to achieve giving Sansa away is just stupid. When he lied about dagger he didn't give anything away. When he was involved in the murder of Joff he didn't give anything away. But now he is giving Sansa away. Now when he finally has something and he doesn't need to make all those risky moves he made in the past, now he is giving all that away without any reason at all.


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Maybe you don't understand the concept of possession but it is easy one. When you have nothing then you can make risky moves to get something. But when you have something valuable in your possession you never give that away if you are not idiot. And Sansa is the most valuable possession Littlefinger had ever. She is as Tywin said key to the north. Giving away key to he north is something only the idiot would do.


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That is a ridiculous claim. Starks were aged up too, to be "oversexualized" i am sure....And Maggy the Frog? Did you wanted to jump on her, tear off her clothes and fuck her right there in that hut?....If you get horny everytime you see a teenager or middle aged witch on TV, well maybe the problem is with you and not with the show.

:agree:

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Anyonw else catch the fact that the High Septon was made to do A Walk of Shame? Hmm, telegraphing future events a bit here. A bit heavy handed of D&D in my opinion.

Why? GRRM does it constantly..... wargs-a-plenty, Thoros bringing back Beric then bringing back Cat, Starks doing their own executing, dragons set things on fire.... GRRM does a lot of precedent-setting. D&D are just doing the same.....

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