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[Book Spoilers] EP503 Discussion

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Unfortunately it makes all too much sense as to why Sansa would protect him.

Most people tend to say that Sansa made the wiser move with LF in not sellnig him out to the Vale lords -- which I absolutely disagree with, I think it was a horrible mistake and anyone who knows anything about the Royces would know that... but in the position of Sansa who's been abused, tormented, and forced to endure the outright abuse of Jeoffrey, the emotional abuse of Cersei, the more subtle abuse of LF himself and even the back and forth quasi-emotional abuse and quasi-support of the Hound, the desire to hold onto what she thinks she knows makes intellectual sense to me. I'm not sure I can relate to it, but I know people who would make decisions like that. There but for the grace of God go I, but protecting someone potentially like LF from people that would see things done right and treat them better makes sense to them.

Not unless he marries her off. At which point she's more or less as out of his control as she is in the North. Who in the Vale can LF control except for Robin? And even in the books, only Robin is looking for Sansa to marry Robin.

LF can't know everyone. He knows about the Boltons, he just doesn't know as much as he needs to: but there's no way of knowing that. Were the Boltons ANYONE else... except House Clegane or MAYBE the Greyjoys... this would be fine. Even if the Boltons had the disposition of House Lannister. Even if they had the disposition of House Frey.

We only know they're psychopaths because we're outside of the story, reading it. But within the story, there's not a lot of psychopath noble familys: Tullys, Umbers, Karstarks, Tyrells, Martells, Lannisters (yes, they're not psychopaths like the Boltons), Freys, Royces, Dondarrions, Tarths, Baratheons...any given family is going to look more like these examples than the Boltons, RW or not. After all, the RW was done in wartime with the Boltons getting out of the losing side that already had one major house in rebellion over a completely separate incident (Karstarks), most likely to the outside proposed by either Tywin Lanniser or Lord Frey. Given that LF has done business with murderous traitors in the past (Janos Slynt), there's little to indicate the Boltons are a family of Dexter Morgans. That's just not a likely assumption or precaution to make if you're living in the world of Westeros and don't know what's up at the Dreadfort. It might be the RIGHT precaustion to take as it turns out, but it's not a likely one. People who would do that are well and truly paranoid and unable to get ahead BECAUSE they're too paranoid.

Whatever way you slice it LF HAS to give Sansa up to someone he can't completely control because he doesn't have a real family name. Even in the Vale, he can't truly control the noble families. That he is even less able to control the Boltons is true... but then the potential rewards of helping out the Boltons versus the Royces are that much greater.

Of course that Littlefinger has to chip Sansa at some point that is why he took her from Kings Landing after all. And that is not easy because he has to be careful not to loose control over her. Or maybe he can give her away for some big reward in return. But in fact what the show did is the worst of both: he doesn't control her any more and he received nothing in return. You are right that very few families are psychopaths but then Littlefinger is even more stupid for not knowing about Boltons. And who are we kidding: everybody in the north knows that Boltons are psychopaths but you excuse Littlefinger for not knowing. That is absurdly bad writing. If Martin pulled something like that in the books he would loose half of his readers at once. And not really reward of Boltons versus Royces are really not greater at all. Both families are uncontrollable by Littlefinger but at least Royces are honest and he knows that while Boltons are unpredictable psychopaths and he knows that or is stupid for not knowing that. In the end Littlefinger could chip Sansa if he is playing carefully and if he thinks about his moves and prepares well for his moves. But in the show he did exactly opposite and that is why it is so nonsensical: he wasn't careful and he didn't prepare and he didn't think it through. Because the show is stupid, Sansa and Littlefinger will probably come out of all unharmed because of some ridiculous outcome. but it doesn't mean this decision was unbelievably ridiculous.

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the Boltons are FAR from the 'weakest company'.

Exactly. There's a reason they included Roose's line "We've become a great house by..."

Sure, he points out that they can't hold the North (a big fucking place) if all the other houses rise up against them, but that hardly makes them a negligible power. The fact that the other northern houses would have to team up to threaten them says something in and of itself.

Edited by Udvarnoky

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Of course that Littlefinger has to chip Sansa at some point that is why he took her from Kings Landing after all. And that is not easy because he has to be careful not to loose control over her. Or maybe he can give her away for some big reward in return. But in fact what the show did is the worst of both: he doesn't control her any more and he received nothing in return.

Firstly we don't know what he might have gained in immediate terms: we don't know how much gold or goods were exchanged. But he has in effect gained an alliance with the wardens of the North. How can that possibly be 'receiving nothing'? Ten years down the line he can use that alliance to do all sorts of things. 'Hey, can I get you to lend me 20 men?' 'Yeah, sure'. 'Hey, can I get you to lend me a ship or two?' 'Yeah, sure'. True, it would be more complex than that, but I'm just trying to give you the scope of favors and resources he now has potential access to. Whereas previously he did not.

Since the Boltons are now Wardens of the North and not just another banner house, those resources are now that much greater. Plus it's drawing from a completely different part of the seven kingdoms.

You are right that very few families are psychopaths but then Littlefinger is even more stupid for not knowing about Boltons. And who are we kidding: everybody in the north knows that Boltons are psychopaths but you excuse Littlefinger for not knowing.

No: stop right there. That is 100% false. You are in direct contridiction to both the books and the show. Not only does not everyone know the Boltons are psychopaths, most people in the North itself DON'T. It's the entire premise hinged on Roose's comment of "a quiet land, a quiet people" in ADWD. Roose is VERY careful word does not get out about his pasttimes, and Ramsey's. Yes, it's well known that the Boltons flayed and skinned their enemies and USED to probably be psychopathic... but that was at least 400 years ago, some time before Aegon's Conquest. In other words, transposed into our own world, a time before there was even a United States of America. Nobosy's going to use that as a basis since the Boltons were loyal until that time right up to the RW. Robert's Rebellion uncluded, BTW.

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Whaaaaa? Are we watching/reading the same story?

the Boltons are FAR from the 'weakest company'. In fact, in the books they seem to be stronger than Stannis. In the show they may be as well. But there is nobody particularly opposing the Boltons. But they have a long family name, troops of their own (ones that were not decimated at the RW), and most importantly, time to consolidate their position.

Sansa would help do that. LF is potentially buying low and selling high. He stands to reap great rewards if the Boltons consolidate that position. At least, if they weren't psychopaths... but that's off the table because LF is unaware of that. IF he was, I highly doubt he'd ever have considered doing this.

Yes, the Boltons are weak: but so is almost everyone else. And they have the potential for strength.

Marrying Sansa off to a family LF 'doesn't know' is frankly just what he has to put up with. She's from the North, where her name carries the most weight, and he's not from the North, which is a totally different culture. What he does know is that the top family in the North was the Starks, and he was able to manipulate Catelyn and Ned just fine. Nobody can know everything about everyone. Considering his plans would probably work if the Boltons didn't happen to be psychopaths is saying something: he'd stand to make a much more substantial gain to ally with the Boltons than Harry the Heir.

We probably don't read the same story because yours look like some Disneyland. in the books it is impossible for me to think how did you figure out that Boltons are stronger than Stannis. They are in Winterfell and they are being murdered from people inside. It doesn't get weaker than that. Almost all of the north hates them and wants to see them dead. It is telling that they can't wait for Stannis any more and they must send their troops out of the castle. But about the show, just think about what you are saying, that Littlefinger would never agree to deal if he knew Boltons are psychopaths. But that's it, that is the essence of it. The main thing about Boltons is that they are psychopaths. They don't have gold mines like Lannisters or long military tradition like Baratheons they are known only for their cruelty. and that was before RW. After RW it only got worse for them. They are ruling the north because they are psychopaths that murdered their king as a guest. So if you live in Westeros and don't know about Boltons are psychopaths but want to make deals with them then you are really weak player and really stupid. And saying Boltons are better bet than Harry is really absurd. We definitely didn't read the same books because only idiot would marry Sansa Stark into family that he knows nothing about other than that Roose Boltons was one of the key players in Red Wedding where Sansa's brother and mother were slain in most disgusting way in history. It would be like if Edmure had a younger sister and some schemer from the north kidnaps her from hostage and marries her to Freys. What excuse would he have for that stupidity tell me? You could probably think of something because you look like finding excuse for anything the show does.

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For those keeping score at home, StepStark has used the word "stupid" no less than twenty-four (24) times over the last six pages. He's also accused two people of not understanding the "concept of possession."


I'll keep you guys abreast of these growing statistics, if for no other reason than all the calories I'll burn.

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"You'd think the Mad King would be fully erect at the notion of a fire god."




I don't know about that because it would mean it wasn't him.


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Firstly we don't know what he might have gained in immediate terms: we don't know how much gold or goods were exchanged. But he has in effect gained an alliance with the wardens of the North. How can that possibly be 'receiving nothing'? Ten years down the line he can use that alliance to do all sorts of things. 'Hey, can I get you to lend me 20 men?' 'Yeah, sure'. 'Hey, can I get you to lend me a ship or two?' 'Yeah, sure'. True, it would be more complex than that, but I'm just trying to give you the scope of favors and resources he now has potential access to. Whereas previously he did not.

Since the Boltons are now Wardens of the North and not just another banner house, those resources are now that much greater. Plus it's drawing from a completely different part of the seven kingdoms.

No: stop right there. That is 100% false. You are in direct contridiction to both the books and the show. Not only does not everyone know the Boltons are psychopaths, most people in the North itself DON'T. It's the entire premise hinged on Roose's comment of "a quiet land, a quiet people" in ADWD. Roose is VERY careful word does not get out about his pasttimes, and Ramsey's. Yes, it's well known that the Boltons flayed and skinned their enemies and USED to probably be psychopathic... but that was at least 400 years ago, some time before Aegon's Conquest. In other words, transposed into our own world, a time before there was even a United States of America. Nobosy's going to use that as a basis since the Boltons were loyal until that time right up to the RW. Robert's Rebellion uncluded, BTW.

What the hell are you talking about? How many times in the books it get repeated that almost all families of the north lost someone in RW? Before RW maybe not everybody knew but after RW which is like the most infamous event in the entire war everybody in the north knows they are psychopaths. They don't have to know about Ramsay and his games they have RW which is more than enough. Everybody hates Freys but you don't think everybody hates Boltons? Yes they do, everybody hate Boltons, but not everybody talks openly about it because they know Boltons are psychopaths. Trusting people like that and making some kind of alliance with them and giving away your most valuable piece to them is simply ridiculous.

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For those keeping score at home, StepStark has used the word "stupid" no less than twenty-four (24) times over the last six pages. He's also accused two people of not understanding the "concept of possession."

I'll keep you guys abreast of these growing statistics, if for no other reason than all the calories I'll burn.

Im not that good in English so maybe you could recommend similar word for stupid. And about concept of possession I wasn't accusing nobody but they were saying all the time that Littlefinger looses nothing which is really absurd. It is very simple really: is Sansa in great danger or not because of Littlefinger's decision? She is most definitely and because he made that decision he is guilty for not knowing or for badly calculating. Putting your most valuable possession in great danger is stupid (sorry) and if you say it is not like that than you you probably don't understand what is the concept of possession.

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I really Thought that LF has no clue about Ramsey... but thinking on it, I can't imagine he didn't gather intelligence from the ground first. It would be completely out of character for him.


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"I'm actually not bashing the books. I am pointing out that the books are just as contrived as the show."




Just a thought on contrivance; six assassins make six failed attempts on a target. Then... after all that, later that evening one of the assassins happens to run into the target at a deli during an unscheduled stop and shoots the target dead... sparking WWI. Real life is full of weird coincidences... In fiction coincidence is too often seen as contrivances.


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We probably don't read the same story because yours look like some Disneyland. in the books it is impossible for me to think how did you figure out that Boltons are stronger than Stannis. They are in Winterfell and they are being murdered from people inside. It doesn't get weaker than that.

That makes no sense. Seriously, I'm not trying to be insulting here: that makes no sense. Roose is weak because some people are murdered under his roof? That could happen, and has happened, to anyone. Especially since the people doing the murders are Wildlings, right? You know, Mance's spearwives who snuck in? The Manderleys have been likely killing people too, but I believe that was the Freys.


Almost all of the north hates them and wants to see them dead.

You are getting them mixed up with the Freys. Some of the North hates them, sure, and most of them don't like them, but it's the Freys they all hate. Most of them don't know how horrible the Boltons are. The Karstarks certainly don't hate the Boltons. House Dustin as well.

It is telling that they can't wait for Stannis any more and they must send their troops out of the castle.

Telling how? That there is any army marching towards Winterfell? Yes, it's true: you can derive that an army is headed their way by the fact that the Boltons sent out an army to fight.

But about the show, just think about what you are saying, that Littlefinger would never agree to deal if he knew Boltons are psychopaths. But that's it, that is the essence of it. The main thing about Boltons is that they are psychopaths. They don't have gold mines like Lannisters or long military tradition like Baratheons they are known only for their cruelty.

As said just previously, they're NOT known for their cruelty. They're known for keeping a low profile. The only ones aware of their cruelty are the rare situations where word gets out. I hardly think there were any 'Reek' incidents in the times of Ned and Rickard and previous Lords of Winterfell or the Starks would have stomped on their necks long ago. Ned's not going to just sit there and say "Yeah, the Boltons are psychopaths with a lot of power... but hey, whaddya gonna do? It's not like I can go and sack their castle".

"Oh wait, I'm Warden of the North, I CAN so totally do that without needing to justify it to anyone -- and everyone hated the Boltons, so even better. It's almost as if I had most of the powers of a Medieval Monarch, or something".

So come on: if the Boltons were as widely known and hated as you say, there wouldn't BE any Boltons. Because the Starks would have killed them all before the story even began.

And saying Boltons are better bet than Harry is really absurd.

No it's not. They have more immediate power than he does. Whatever Harry stands to gain in the Vale, it's in the future of a land LF already has some influence in. The Boltons have all that power of a totally separate Kingdom RIGHT NOW.

Edited by Nilan8888

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What the hell are you talking about? How many times in the books it get repeated that almost all families of the north lost someone in RW? Before RW maybe not everybody knew but after RW which is like the most infamous event in the entire war everybody in the north knows they are psychopaths.

Just because they participated in the RW, a wartime event, doesn't mean they are psychopaths. It just means they were in on it. It means they are traitors but that in and of itself doesn't mean that everything they do is to get enjoyment out of death and murder. There are all sorts of traitors, but that doesn't mean they are psychopaths. Janos Slynt was a traitor. The Kettleblacks are traitors. Renly was a traitor. And as for being traitors, the Boltons themselves did not betray Ned during the Rebellion. They did not drop everything and go after the Starks during the Dance of the Dragons, or who knows how many Wildling invasions.

They don't have to know about Ramsay and his games they have RW which is more than enough. Everybody hates Freys but you don't think everybody hates Boltons? Yes they do, everybody hate Boltons, but not everybody talks openly about it because they know Boltons are psychopaths. Trusting people like that and making some kind of alliance with them and giving away your most valuable piece to them is simply ridiculous.

If everyone hates them and thinks they're psychopaths, why are the Karstarks not at their throats, or the Dustins? The RW happned under Walder Frey's roof, not Roose Bolton's.

Edited by Nilan8888

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For those keeping score at home, StepStark has used the word "stupid" no less than twenty-four (24) times over the last six pages. He's also accused two people of not understanding the "concept of possession."

I'll keep you guys abreast of these growing statistics, if for no other reason than all the calories I'll burn.

Keeps you fit. Keep up the exercise.

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@Nilan8888


This is taking too much time and you are running in circles because all you want is to defend stupidity of the show and not to analyze what they are doing. Now you want to be discussing about how weak Boltons are in the books. Well let me tell you they are much weaker than they want to admit and because of Reek's POV it is not openly revealed to readers but if you think about it you will see the same as what Roose said in the show: they have almost no allies in the north and they are in desperate need of allies. When army leaves castle to confront the enemy in the open field then something is fishy. Of course that we know that Mance's spearwives killed at least some of Boltons men but Roose Bolton is actually afraid at one point and even Reek sees that. That is sign of how weak they really are because they are rulers of the north and they are inside Winterfell and they just can't feel safe at all. Their men are dying even before the battle against Stannis started and nobody other than them cares about that at all. That is how weak and out of place they are in Winterfell. And it is even true in the show but there it is stated open and so far there are no murders inside Winterfell to create additional chaos. But the most important thing is that you are now backpedaling on your own words. Because you said that Littlefinger wouldn't make this deal if he knew how Boltons are sadistic. Even if they aren't psychopaths it would be a very very risky move because their hold of the north is very weak and they are nobody's favorite. But with them as psychopaths everything is only more worse for Littlefinger. He didn't do the first thing and that is to check who are people that he wants to marry Sansa to. In the realm where everybody is marrying not for love but for political alliances that is as stupid as it gets. The first thing you have to know is who are the people with which you are forming the alliance. He didn't do his homework and that is just pathetic writing. What matters is that all your reasons even could be correct only if Boltons aren't untrustworthy psychopaths. But they are and everybody knows they are. And if not everybody knows after Red Wedding than sorry but it is even more absurd than Littlefinger's decision. In the books in the north Boltons are hated as much as Freys because just remember that guy who just wants to drink Bolton's blood before he dies. People are joining Stannis' army just so they can save Ned's little girl from Boltons. That is how the books treat RW and if the show doesn't treat RW that way then everything is even more absurd then I thought. And since you are obviously going in circles I don't know what other than this can I say so its probably for the best if we end discussion.


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This is taking too much time and you are running in circles because all you want is to defend stupidity of the show and not to analyze what they are doing.

Just because you say this doesn't make it so. I could say that all you want to do is slam the show due to pre-conceived conclusions and that, were the show to take your suggestions and use them, more people would actually dislike the show.

Frankly, I think the real reason we're discussing this so heatedly is ultimately because GRRM didn't personally write it.

Now you want to be discussing about how weak Boltons are in the books.

Well you brought up how weak they were in the TV show. Seems a natural topic to visit in response.

Well let me tell you they are much weaker than they want to admit and because of Reek's POV it is not openly revealed to readers but if you think about it you will see the same as what Roose said in the show: they have almost no allies in the north and they are in desperate need of allies.

They are in need of allies, yes -- but so would any House seeking to usurp the Starks. And as I've said before, they are not WITHOUT allies in the North, since there's at least two Houses that seem ready to stand with them.

When army leaves castle to confront the enemy in the open field then something is fishy. Of course that we know that Mance's spearwives killed at least some of Boltons men but Roose Bolton is actually afraid at one point and even Reek sees that. That is sign of how weak they really are because they are rulers of the north and they are inside Winterfell and they just can't feel safe at all.

That Roose is worried about Northern reprisals does not mean the Bolton's hold on power IS weak, it just means that Roose is afraid that a significant number of Northmen might challenge him. This might be the case, but it also might not be the case. After all, the man leading the army against him is NOT a northman, and a large portion of his army -- in fact, the core of that army -- are not northmen either.

I would not characterize Roose as strong, but that everyone else just happens to be weaker than he is.

Their men are dying even before the battle against Stannis started and nobody other than them cares about that at all. That is how weak and out of place they are in Winterfell. And it is even true in the show but there it is stated open and so far there are no murders inside Winterfell to create additional chaos. But the most important thing is that you are now backpedaling on your own words. Because you said that Littlefinger wouldn't make this deal if he knew how Boltons are sadistic. Even if they aren't psychopaths it would be a very very risky move because their hold of the north is very weak and they are nobody's favorite. But with them as psychopaths everything is only more worse for Littlefinger. He didn't do the first thing and that is to check who are people that he wants to marry Sansa to. In the realm where everybody is marrying not for love but for political alliances that is as stupid as it gets. The first thing you have to know is who are the people with which you are forming the alliance. He didn't do his homework and that is just pathetic writing.

No. It's not backpedaling, and it's not sloppy writing: you're just refusing to accept reasonable arguments and/or ignoring them.

Yes, Littlefinger would not have made this deal if he knew the Boltons were sadistic psychopaths. This is because of two reasons:

1) Sansa's safety is in jeapordy, which he does not want to risk both beacuse of his infatuation and because she's a good investment

2) It would prove that the RW was more indicative of how the Boltons are normally behind closed doors, and not just an oppertunistic way to get out of a losing war.

In other words in regards to 2) -- and I'm guessing 2) would be the point you're most interested in -- LF is expecting the Boltons to be like other untrustworthy people he's dealt with in the past: the Kettleblacks, Janos Slynt, Dontos Hollard, etc. But the to parahprase The Dark Knight, what LF doesn't know is that he's turning to people that he doesn't truly understand. His only mistake is in assuming that they were going to be like just about everyone else he's run across in his life.

What matters is that all your reasons even could be correct only if Boltons aren't untrustworthy psychopaths. But they are and everybody knows they are. And if not everybody knows after Red Wedding than sorry but it is even more absurd than Littlefinger's decision. In the books in the north Boltons are hated as much as Freys because just remember that guy who just wants to drink Bolton's blood before he dies. People are joining Stannis' army just so they can save Ned's little girl from Boltons. That is how the books treat RW and if the show doesn't treat RW that way then everything is even more absurd then I thought. And since you are obviously going in circles I don't know what other than this can I say so its probably for the best if we end discussion.

Ok, fine with that.

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Because when breasts or a vagina are exposed, it's like an angel floating down from heaven.

When a penis gets whipped out, it's like your drunk friend falling out of the back of the cab.

...for YOU.

Females watch this show too. Please don't start some insane #gamergate insanity here, as if you out number us 10 to 1. You don't. Not here, not with the show, and certainly not in RL.

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OMG this so needs to happen in the comedic spin-off version of the show!

I cannot wait for the Graphic Novel!

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That's sooo below the line. But tbh, not including the block didn't bother me. Which is funny, seeing how pissed I was at the rather rushed election scene.

Good episode overall. Although Littlefinger having an owl network to insta deliver letters ruffled my feathers quite a lot than it should have. And how old is the show Tommen? Even last season he was talking to Margaery about the antics of Ser Pounce. Now he gets to consummate his marriage? :o

Have you ever had these same problems with Shakespeare's Romeo & Juliet due to the protagonists' age?

Why put 21st century western social contraints and sensibilities on a Medeival fantasy world?

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I just figure the younger ones are about the age of the actors, makes it easier that way. And Westeros is different...



But Tommen could love both Margaery and Ser Pounce, older guys like animals, too.


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