How would you rate episode 503?

[AdmiralKyrd]

People who argue that Littlefinger is "pretending" he knows nothing about Ramsay, my question is... why? Why would he pretend to be clueless to Ramsay? Why does he even need to remark on it at all? What purpose does it serve him?

Well, if he's plotting to get revenge on the Boltons for Catelyn's murder, or just more power, then there are these scenes to keep in mind.

STANNIS: What do you mean to do with him?

MELISANDRE: You know what I mean to do with him.

STANNIS: Then why bathe him and dress him in fine clothes? If it needs to be done, then do it. Don't torture the boy.

MELISANDRE: Have you ever slaughtered a lamb?

STANNIS: No.

MELISANDRE: If the lamb sees the knife, she panics. Her panic seeps into the meat, darkens it, fouls the flavor.

STANNIS: And you've slaughtered many lambs.

MELISANDRE: And none have seen the blade.

PETYR: A man with no motive is a man no one suspects. Always keep your foes confused. If they don't know who you are, or what you want, they can't know what you plan to do next.

If Littlefinger were to know about Ramsay, I wouldn't think he would inform him he is aware of his behavior based on the above statement. Why reveal what you know when you can just feign ignorance? It could be just like you said - in GoT Ramsay's actions aren't well-known and it's plausible Ramsay has no reason to suspect Littlefinger really knows about him. But it's also plausible Littlefinger might have spies somewhere to have told him about Ramsay anyway.

The show has done stranger things. I don't know if they'll pursue that angle but Littlefinger is the man of twists and turns.

I've always thought there would be a scene where Littlefinger mentions to Roose that he has heard rumors of Ramsay and demands as part of the deal that he keep him in check. They both know if any harm comes to Sansa that the Northern Lords would rise up immediately against them both. It would preserve some of the powderkeg tension in Winterfell even without the Freys and Manderlys where you wouldn't know if Ramsay would jump off his leash and cause things to blow up.

[Ran]

The fact that Littlefinger knows doesn't change the fact that Sansa need not know; he can withhold that information from her while letting the Boltons know he knows. Indeed, letting them know he knows would have the effect of allowing him to do what you say: tell Roose to keep Ramsay in check. But that obviously can't happen, and it's not happening because ... well, Littlefinger doesn't know he needs to say this, because Ramsay really is a complete mystery to him.

And there's a benefit further for letting them know he knows: it means that their deal is safe even if Ramsay acts the monster with Sansa, right, because Littlefinger's telling him he knows the real score and he doesn't care? Whereas right now, the situation is such that Littlefinger could be justifiably outraged and could break the deal and bring the forces of the Vale against the Boltons if Ramsay harms Sansa. By telling them that he's utterly ruthless and pragmatic in their arrangement, they will feel more, not less, secure. Which is, presumably, exactly what Littlefinger wants them to feel.

And again, there's the question of Ramsay -- why is he pretending to be something he's not, unless it's plausible that someone like Littlefinger wouldn't know any differently?

I think viewers just have to accept that the writers are fudging some things to get the specific scenario they want.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Ran

[Modesty Lannister]

That is all fine, but it is not even an adaptation of AFOIAF anymore. Book LF would not make a move unless in possession of all data. And the show LF is making a move without knowing who Ramsey really is. That is totally out of character. Ramsey is not well bred. He grew up in a hut with his mother. He is rough. Book Ramsey that is. So, it is totally out of character for him to flay people in one scene and then be Hamlet in the next. Furthermore, since we are to suppose that show LF does not know who Ramsey is, if he flays people all around north, a word is bound to reach show LF who, as he told Ned in S1, has spies everywhere. So, not only these two show characters are changing character at whim in the show. Their actions make no sense even for their show personas. That's bad writing. Characters have no real motivations. They change from scene to scene. I am not even going to discuss that such a departure from the adaptation is unnecessary.

On a different note, since many posters objected to the lack of "fetch me a block" line, why is it that D&D omitted every single iconic line from the show?

[Konradsmith]

That is all fine, but it is not even an adaptation of AFOIAF anymore.

A show based on this forum would sure be weird. ;)

Edited May 2, 2015 by Konradsmith

[kissdbyfire]

I have one question for all those who really believe LF doesn't know jack about Ramsay.

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE FLAYED CORPSES HANGING IN WINTEFELL's COURTYARD?

Is the blind on top of being dumb as a bag of hammers? :rolleyes:

ETA: I mean, those who think it is believable that LF doesn't know about Ramsay

Edited May 2, 2015 by kissdbyfire

[Konradsmith]

I have one question for all those who really believe LF doesn't know jack about Ramsay.

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE FLAYED CORPSES HANGING IN WINTEFELL's COURTYARD?

There were only TWO bodies hanging there and one lying elsewhere. They all could've easily removed from where they were. Not that LF and Sansa don't already know what the Bolton's sigil is and what their heritage is, of course, but those particular Cerwyn bodies would likely have been taken away from the premises in time for the Vale party's arrival. They certainly weren't visible in the scene itself and Roose disapproved of their being there in the first place, so it follows that he didn't keep them there for too long.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Konradsmith

[LordCommander_Samwell]

It was a good episode, probably the best so far in this season. I kinda like the changes from Sansa's storyline, I just hope they don't use her as a psychopaths verbal and physical punch bag again and actually progress with her pawn to player arc. The only thing I hated was Janos Slynts execution. It wasn't bad, but it was pretty rushed and it lost all the build up from the book, I know that the show can't really spend as much time as the book but they could have give the scene a little more love and made Jon look as ruthless and Badass as he does in the books. Overall 8/10.

[AdmiralKyrd]

The fact that Littlefinger knows doesn't change the fact that Sansa need not know; he can withhold that information from her while letting the Boltons know he knows. Indeed, letting them know he knows would have the effect of allowing him to do what you say: tell Roose to keep Ramsay in check. But that obviously can't happen, and it's not happening because ... well, Littlefinger doesn't know he needs to say this, because Ramsay really is a complete mystery to him.

And there's a benefit further for letting them know he knows: it means that their deal is safe even if Ramsay acts the monster with Sansa, right, because Littlefinger's telling him he knows the real score and he doesn't care? Whereas right now, the situation is such that Littlefinger could be justifiably outraged and could break the deal and bring the forces of the Vale against the Boltons if Ramsay harms Sansa. By telling them that he's utterly ruthless and pragmatic in their arrangement, they will feel more, not less, secure. Which is, presumably, exactly what Littlefinger wants them to feel.

With regards to Sansa... There's the possibility he doesn't trust informing Sansa about it or she wouldn't go to begin with, or that she would do something to tip the Boltons off that they're aware of him and plotting something. He believes he can protect her from Ramsay by himself. And then there's also the possibility they ride a totally different rail....

...that Littlefinger does know about Ramsay but just wants Sansa to get tortured and murdered in Winterfell to end the Stark line. While he sees her as Catelyn's daughter he truly only loved Cat, and sees Sansa as the reminder that he will never have his beloved again. Sansa is the legacy of the family and the man who originally took Catelyn from him. They need to be extinguished in the most horrific fashion possible. Lysa was just as much a relative of Cat as Sansa, and it didn't save her at all.

(Just throwing it out there.)

And yes, letting Ramsay know he knows would help alleviate more tension between Petyr - Roose/Ramsay. I find the whole thing weird he doesn't have a plausible reason for forming the alliance. I thought he could at least say something about opposing Stannis, because the only thing between Stannis and King's Landing after the North is the Vale. The angle of giving Sansa to the Boltons isn't a betrayl of Cersei as much as it is for their protection and ultimately hers. It's written like they wanted it to be purposefully vague to make people talk about it rather than justifiable.

There were only TWO bodies hanging there and one lying elsewhere. They all could've easily removed from where they were. Not that LF and Sansa don't already know what the Bolton's sigil is and what their heritage is, of course, but those particular Cerwyn bodies would likely have been taken away from the premises in time for the Vale party's arrival. They certainly weren't visible in the scene itself and Roose disapproved of their being there in the first place, so it follows that he didn't keep them there for too long.

Exactly. Presumably there was a month's time between Moat Cailin and Winterfell. How long are they supposed to leave rotting bodies dangling on the Walls? People don't even keep Christmas tree ornaments up for but a month. It's not like Hallmark is coming out with the Keepsake Steak series anytime soon.

Edited May 2, 2015 by AdmiralKyrd

[kissdbyfire]

There were only TWO bodies hanging there and one lying elsewhere. They all could've easily removed from where they were. Not that LF and Sansa don't already know what the Bolton's sigil is and what their heritage is, of course, but those particular Cerwyn bodies would likely have been taken away from the premises in time for the Vale party's arrival. They certainly weren't visible in the scene itself and Roose disapproved of their being there in the first place, so it follows that he didn't keep them there for too long.

Ah, I see! There were only two flayed bodies. And they shoulda/coulda/woulda have removed them from view. Sorry, but you're just trying to explain away something that doesn't make sense. They wanted to show the flayed bodies, and they wanted for LF to be unaware of who Ramsay is, and that's what they did, regardless of it making little sense. They're constantly shoehorning things so that they'll fit into their story, whatever that may be.

[Konradsmith]

Ah, I see! There were only two flayed bodies. And they shoulda/coulda/woulda have removed them from view. Sorry, but you're just trying to explain away something that doesn't make sense. They wanted to show the flayed bodies, and they wanted for LF to be unaware of who Ramsay is, and that's what they did, regardless of it making little sense. They're constantly shoehorning things so that they'll fit into their story, whatever that may be.

No... Roose is a careful man and he clearly disapproved of his son bringing those bodies back to WF. That was the crux of the scene between him and Ramsay. His saying that there are better ways to consolidate their hold on the North than flaying people and then bringing up marriage makes it pretty clear that he'd have those bodies removed in the days of travel time between that scene and the next WF scene in the episode. Cue the expected gaggle of posters' hack "but they just teleported anyways" jokes.

But then if explaining a scene as I understood it is just being an apologist for "shoehorning"...I guess I was wrong to think I should intervene around here nowadays. As y'all were. G'night folks.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Konradsmith

[Ran]

I agree that on the show, it makes sense that Roose removed the bodies. They definitely were not on display when the Vale entourage arrived.

He can't, of course, remove all the witnesses to their display in Winterfell (including Stark loyalists), or the witnesses to their making in Castle Cerwyn or at Moat Cailin. And, correctly, if there's literally hundreds -- maybe thousands -- of people who have witnessed them, that it's extraordinary for Littlefinger to not be able to find out anything.

But that is, clearly, what the writers decided: Littlefinger hasn't found out. It's the only way to make sense of his ignorance and Ramsay's act if, on the show, the writers want Ramsay's monstrous behavior to be something that you can't find out with gold and questions. That this strains credulity is natural.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Ran

[PatrickStormborn]

No... Roose is a careful man and he clearly disapproved of his son bringing those bodies back to WF. That was the crux of the scene between him and Ramsay. His saying that there are better ways to consolidate their hold on the North than flaying people and then bringing up marriage makes it pretty clear that he'd have those bodies removed in the days of travel time between that scene and the next WF scene in the episode. Cue the expected gaggle of posters' hack "but they just teleported anyways" jokes.

But then if explaining a scene as I understood it is just being an apologist for "shoehorning"...I guess I was wrong to think I should intervene around here nowadays. As y'all were. G'night folks.

I think you make a valid point about the flayed bodies in Winterfell. But that doesn't explain why Littlefinger has absolutely no clue about Ramsay's reputation.

Of course everyone in Westeros knows about Renly and Loras, Daenerys Targaryen's dragons, Roose Bolton's role in the Red Wedding, etc., but Littlefinger hasn't even heard a single rumour about Ramsay Bolton, who's literally been flaying people all over the North.

[Modesty Lannister]

A show based on this forum would sure be weird. ;)

Indeed. As is a show based on the first thing that pops into D&D's minds.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Modesty Lannister

[kissdbyfire]

No... Roose is a careful man and he clearly disapproved of his son bringing those bodies back to WF. That was the crux of the scene between him and Ramsay. His saying that there are better ways to consolidate their hold on the North than flaying people and then bringing up marriage makes it pretty clear that he'd have those bodies removed in the days of travel time between that scene and the next WF scene in the episode. Cue the expected gaggle of posters' hack "but they just teleported anyways" jokes.

But then if explaining a scene as I understood it is just being an apologist for "shoehorning"...I guess I was wrong to think I should intervene around here nowadays. As y'all were. G'night folks.

Don't get offended or whatever. I don't have a problem with agreeing to disagree. In fact, I know I'm in the vast minority here, even RL friends and I seldom agree on the show at this point (even though a lot of the show viewers who haven't read the books are feeling a bit confused).

I do understand your point. The thing is, Roose doesn't have a problem with the actual flaying, he has a problem with how they'll be seen and the consequences if it were to become common knowledge - in the show, obviously. But then, in the scene with Ramsay, why not have him say, 'have those bodies taken down'? Then it would have been clear. I think the show suffers constantly because of sloppy writing.

And I do understand the scope and immense difficulties in trying to adapt a story like this. Maybe the show and Weiss and Benioff themselves could have benefited if they had others doing the actual writing and had remained the show's EP.

And I would never dare to make jokes about the high speed travelling!

ETA: To be honest, I didn't even think about the flayed bodies when I watched the episode. I brought it up because two unsullied friends asked me about it and it got me thinking, 'how hard would it have been to add a little line where Roose tells Ramsay (or anyone) to have them taken down.

Edited May 2, 2015 by kissdbyfire

[Lovely Lyanna]

The show is moving along and that is the main thing for me. Honestly I was tired of endless pages of characters either not doing anything and just wandering around in Westeros. It is a 10 hour show and their time is limited. D&D have to make the story lines move and since George did not bother doing that, they have to condense that endless drivel of George's into some sort of action. I would much rather have the 10 hours of the show creating a moving story than 1000 hours on film of those characters plus another group of characters that no one cares about just wandering around doing absolutely nothing.

As of right now, we do not know Littlefinger's endgame. It is possible that he does not know much about Ramsay, just as it is equally possible that he does know more about Ramsay. Perhaps he knows and is simply counting on Roose recognizing Sansa as a valuable asset thus not killing her. I do not think he cares if they hurt Sansa. I cannot tell at this point if Littlefinger is completely out of character right now or not. A lot of people seem to think that Littlefinger truly cares for Sansa and I really do not see any real support for this. Sansa is simply a Stark and therefore valuable to him as the key to the North. I know everybody wants to say but he loves her and sees her as a second chance of Cat. I never saw his feeling toward Cat as genuine. I always believed that he saw Cat as a means to rise up in life. Littlefinger is simply ambitious and this storyline is just another example of his character. People should stop romanticizing Littlefinger and see him for what he is, another extremely ambitious man that will use whatever is at his disposal to make a move for the throne. Any other opinion of Littlefinger is simply fan fiction.

[Lord Lard]

Anyone else noticed that the Mannis may die this season? Hopefully not (fav character), but Brienne was talkin about Renly and all that BS, and she's heading to Winterfell and Stannis is going there too, and also there is LF plan (what if Stannis dies?), so by now Stann is the most killable character by now, I think.

[biosnake20]

D&D have constantly said there wouldn't be any major TWoW spoilers this season so no Stannis won't be dying.

[Lord Lard]

D&D have constantly said there wouldn't be any major TWoW spoilers this season so no Stannis won't be dying.

Thanks,even tho nobody is safe.

[ummester]

There could be a very simple explanation for why LF doesn't know about Ramsay.

Flaying, torturing and otherwise mutilating people may seem huge to us, but in GoTs Westeros, it may be business as usual, the kind of news that doesn't matter that much. When LF says he hasn't heard much about Ramsay, he isn't even referencing flaying and stuff, he means he hasn't heard much of Ramsay in political circles.

This is because Roose has previously tried to keep Ramsay covered up and is probably still covering up or downplaying some of Ramsay's more aggressive leadership methods for any news that travels outside the North. Roose is the Warden of the North, don't forget - he's the bossman, with the final word on how the North is presented to Westeros.

Edited May 3, 2015 by ummester

[Colonel Green]

Flaying, torturing and otherwise mutilating people may seem huge to us, but in GoTs Westeros, it may be business as usual, the kind of news that doesn't matter that much.

That's explicitly not the case. Ramsay's behaviour is clearly unusual, otherwise Roose wouldn't be demanding that he stop.