Tommen & Margaery Consummate Their Marriage, Does This Spoil the Margaery Accusations?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

They're really driving home this Anne Boleyn thing, aren't they? We can't try Catherine Howard or Catherine Parr? Anne of Cleves? She married the younger brother of her second husband on a technicality, why can't Margaery be Catherine of Aragon and give Tommen a girl?

Idk, I feel like the way Margaery is being characterized for the show is going to put Natalie Dormer in a box. Was her Anne Boleyn so good that she doomed to continuously play different versions of her?

I think Marg already has stronger echos of Catherine of Aragon than Anne Boleyn in both books and show - Catherine was more than 10 years older than Henry, and they got married when he was a (possibly virgin) teen after his brother's untimely death. Furthermore Margaery and Catherine share the accusations of not being virgins, which is how Henry eventually gets rid of her ("tonight I have been in Spain!")

She's like a combo Catherine and Anne, TBH.

[Newstar]

I think you're correct.

I wonder if Show Margaery shares Anne Boleyn's fate.

WRT Loras, I wasn't under the impression that homosexuality was a crime in Westeros (IIRC, Joffrey was considering making it a crime.)

That's why it would be odd for Loras to lash out at Olyvar for merely telling the truth about their relationship. I suspect he'll be enraged at Olyvar lying about Margaery.

[Lord Damian]

That's why it would be odd for Loras to lash out at Olyvar for merely telling the truth about their relationship. I suspect he'll be enraged at Olyvar lying about Margaery

3 some is what the accusation will be.

[Stonehearted Snake]

That's why it would be odd for Loras to lash out at Olyvar for merely telling the truth about their relationship. I suspect he'll be enraged at Olyvar lying about Margaery.

I think that might be it too. He looks beyond enraged in the trailer, he is violently leaping towards Olyvar. The only thing that makes me think it's not though is that no one else, including Olenna, seems to be reacting as much. (I can't tell if that is Margaery next to Olenna but if it is she is quite calm as well).

But regardless I do think the incest take will be Cersei's tactic overall. I don't think it was just coincidence we see a scene with Margaery was in Loras' bedroom with Olyvar in the first episode. Could be set-up.

[Zaphrinar]

in the trailer Cerise is talking to the High Sparrow about a in their midst and his reply is may 'he be judged justly' i think this is about Loras and then in the trial Olyvar will reveal threesomes and such.

[gotgrrrl]

Yes, it could well be accusations of threesomes with Loras and Olyvar that lands Marg in hot water. I also thought it was odd how Cersei says to Marg that she can ask her for ANYTHING (wink, wink). Seems to hint at moon tea entering the picture but I strongly doubt Marg would do that, especially after gloating about the prospect of her getting pregnant by Tommen and producing an heir. Just thought it was a strange thing for Cersei to say...I doubt Marg would ask for anything from Cersei that could be used against her.

[Pies are coming]

Cersei? Cersei won't accuse anyone of anything.

It will be the High Sparrow. And if Olenna Tyrell has a problem with that, I doubt Cersei will oppose to Olenna using the Tyrell armies to storm the Sept of Baelor.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think this is where it's going. False accusations of adultery and incest, a la Anne Boleyn. (George Boleyn, Anne Boleyn's brother, was executed on the basis of his supposed incest with Anne Boleyn. Fun fact: some have speculated that George Boleyn was homosexual, admittedly with very little historical foundation, and in The Tudors, George Boleyn was depicted as homosexual.)

I don't think that scene with Margaery lounging in Loras' room with Olyvar present is a coincidence, since Olyvar could later lie about what took place at that time. Anne Boleyn also got in deep trouble for supposedly entertaining men in her room at odd hours. Judging from Loras violently attacking Olyvar in the trailer, I'd say Olyvar not only spills the beans about his own relationship with Loras, but also throws in some lies about Margaery participating in threesomes with Olyvar and Loras, dooming not only Loras but also Margaery.

It would be funny if the show version of Margaery's charges hewed closer to what happened with Anne Boleyn--false accusations of adultery and incest--given that Natalie Dormer portrayed Anne Boleyn in The Tudors.

Yep, and I just realized the guy who plays Olyvar is actually called Wil Tudor. Like, how more meta can you get?

[Newstar]

Yep, and I just realized the guy who plays Olyvar is actually called Wil Tudor. Like, how more meta can you get?

If we're getting even more meta, Mark Smeaton, a commoner musician, was allegedly tortured into confessing adultery with Anne, although another version of events is that he confessed in the hopes of saving himself. He was the only commoner of those men accused of being Anne's lovers and was supposedly subjected to rougher treatment as a result. Retha Warnicke speculated that Mark Smeaton and George Boleyn, Anne's brother, were lovers--and Mark Smeaton and George Boleyn are depicted as lovers in The Tudors--and others have speculated that Mark Smeaton was gay.

Olyvar will likely get the Mark Smeaton treatment in the show and will either falsely confess to save himself or as a result of torture, since he'd get rougher treatment than a highborn individual would in the imprisonment department. I wonder whether Loras will get the George Boleyn treatment: execution for supposedly committing incest with his sister, the queen. We shall see.

I wouldn't mind if the Margaery storyline went full Boleyn. Natalie Dormer's Margaery in 5x03 reminded me of her Anne Boleyn in The Tudors before Anne's downfall: haughty and sly.

[Good Guy Garlan]

If we're getting even more meta, Mark Smeaton, a commoner musician, was allegedly tortured into confessing adultery with Anne, although another version of events is that he confessed in the hopes of saving himself. He was the only commoner of those men accused of being Anne's lovers and was supposedly subjected to rougher treatment as a result. Retha Warnicke speculated that Mark Smeaton and George Boleyn, Anne's brother, were lovers--and Mark Smeaton and George Boleyn are depicted as lovers in The Tudors--and others have speculated that Mark Smeaton was gay.

Olyvar will likely get the Mark Smeaton treatment in the show and will either falsely confess to save himself or as a result of torture. I wonder whether Loras will get the George Boleyn treatment: execution for supposedly committing incest with his sister, the queen. We shall see.

Interesting, the meta plot thickens. I'm thinking Mark Smeaton = the Blue Bard, also, maybe?

[VladimirDulud]

Yes, it could well be accusations of threesomes with Loras and Olyvar that lands Marg in hot water. I also thought it was odd how Cersei says to Marg that she can ask her for ANYTHING (wink, wink). Seems to hint at moon tea entering the picture but I strongly doubt Marg would do that, especially after gloating about the prospect of her getting pregnant by Tommen and producing an heir. Just thought it was a strange thing for Cersei to say...I doubt Marg would ask for anything from Cersei that could be used against her.

i too have a weird feeling about Cersei telling Marge to ask her for ANYTHING. what could this be??

[larastone]

If we're getting even more meta, Mark Smeaton, a commoner musician, was allegedly tortured into confessing adultery with Anne, although another version of events is that he confessed in the hopes of saving himself. He was the only commoner of those men accused of being Anne's lovers and was supposedly subjected to rougher treatment as a result. Retha Warnicke speculated that Mark Smeaton and George Boleyn, Anne's brother, were lovers--and Mark Smeaton and George Boleyn are depicted as lovers in The Tudors--and others have speculated that Mark Smeaton was gay.

Olyvar will likely get the Mark Smeaton treatment in the show and will either falsely confess to save himself or as a result of torture, since he'd get rougher treatment than a highborn individual would in the imprisonment department. I wonder whether Loras will get the George Boleyn treatment: execution for supposedly committing incest with his sister, the queen. We shall see.

I wouldn't mind if the Margaery storyline went full Boleyn. Natalie Dormer's Margaery in 5x03 reminded me of her Anne Boleyn in The Tudors before Anne's downfall: haughty and sly.

lol I find this all extremely amusing, especially as D&D tried to reassure Natalie that Margaery was a completely different character from Anne

[ladyprudence03]

I thought it was a very disturbing scene indeed. I mean: how old is that Tommen guy really in the novels? Not that old right? Furthermore, it really ruins the plot of the book, so I'm curious how this will all turn out. Cersei's capture is one of my favourite parts of the novel, so i hope that's still in the tv series.

[Lord Damian]

I thought it was a very disturbing scene indeed. I mean: how old is that Tommen guy really in the novels? Not that old right? Furthermore, it really ruins the plot of the book, so I'm curious how this will all turn out. Cersei's capture is one of my favourite parts of the novel, so i hope that's still in the tv series.

Tommen is not even 9 I think, if that. Mrycella is like 10 in the Novels, Joff was 13 when he died and 12 when he had Ned executed.

[Stonehearted Snake]

Tommen is not even 9 I think, if that. Mrycella is like 10 in the Novels, Joff was 13 when he died and 12 when he had Ned executed.

Yeah I think he is 8. I thought on the show they were aging him up to be around 16 (the age of the actor at the time they filmed) but DCC has said in interviews that he is playing a 12 year old. So I think they maybe just aged the actor up for consent laws?

[ambi76]

Tommen should be 9 years old now in the books, as we're in the second half of 300 AL (ADWD) and he turned 7 in the first half of 298 AL (AGOT). Interestingly had the 5 years skip not been scraped he would be around 13/14 now.

ETA: Hilariously the GOT-Wiki is still claiming that Tommen was retconned to 18 years old in season 5 because they are so petrified of the consumation scene. But then the Wiki's staff is notoriously nuts about show continuity: I once wasted half a day arguing with one editor that Dany can not be younger than Joffrey, but he wouldn't yield (until the very end).

_{Also really had to bite back a laugh at 17 year old DCC claiming not even being able to remember what it's like to be twelve. :lol:}

[Johnsmith]

What accusations, I don't understand this thread. Unless in the next few episode Cersei devises a new plan for Marg that requires adultery not virtue'inity. Show Loras is book Marg presumably this show has done that theme.

I may be wrong but wouldn't it be really stupid if everybody in Kingslanding became Sparrow bites, shown like this. What is going on, I really don't understand the TV version here.

[ambi76]

So, whom does Tommen choose? Mother or wife? Queen or Queen Regent? "If I had to choose between them, I'd just say, run away!" Chapman laughed. "Commit suicide! Seriously."

Okay, that really threw me a little from the interview because I kinda think that might just be as much a spoiler as a "joke". :crying:

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I agree with those who say that Cersei and Littlefinger will accuse Margaery of having an affair with Loras. I have a feeling that's why Loras was arrested.

What complicates things is that Olenna and Littlefinger worked together to kill Joffrey, so we'll see how she reacts, especially once she finds out that Sansa is marrying a Bolton. She might even reveal that Littlefinger helped Sansa escape and then gave her to the Boltons.

[Johnsmith]

I agree with those who say that Cersei and Littlefinger will accuse Margaery of having an affair with Loras. I have a feeling that's why Loras was arrested.

What complicates things is that Olenna and Littlefinger worked together to kill Joffrey, so we'll see how she reacts, especially once she finds out that Sansa is marrying a Bolton. She might even reveal that Littlefinger helped Sansa escape and then gave her to the Boltons.

Woot? Loras is gay that must mean he has a threesome with his sister committing incest because that would mean he is gay? There is some real nonsense assumed in that comment.

Littlefinger this episode committed treason with Roose in spoken words North East Alliance why is the seven hells is he gonna tell Cersei about it?

I really don't like the way this season has adapted the book. Depicting religion the way it has, rabble capturing one of the best fighters champions a member of the kingsguard who commanded tens of thousands of men from the Redkeep he is guarding. What n the seven hells happened to the High Speton commiting fornication where was his trail