How large is 'show' Westeros (possible book spoilers)

[ummester]

The episodes in season 5 have, so far, been presented with a more disjointed overall narrative structure than other episodes. They jump around a lot, without rhyme, reason or flow. I don't think this actually means there are massive time/distance plot holes that can be proven, just that it feels like time is speeding up and slowing down because of how the episodes are structured.

[Johnsmith]

Westerborough a universe in flux constantly shifting through the time space continuum. Nobody knows how small it is, once the size of a continent, the next day a country, tomorrow a county.

However in any event tha stupidier comments of we don't care that the actars don't know how small it is, doesn't matter, because geography is boring. Only supports the type of demographic this show is intended for. With anybody else coherent structured information is vital for maintaining stability and scope.

If the actars are constantly contradicting themselves over the scale of Westerborough's geography, this will only affect the logical viewer.

Last episode the Eyrie is half a day ride from the Dreadfort. What is that like 40-60 miles, before the horse dies? The Eyrie the tallest mountain in Westerborough which takes a day to climb? I know the boring stuff pony express they sent the raven with the sealed message to the gate before a postal dispatch changing horsey at the Kings Rude pab gaining a few more air miles

[ummester]

Do we need to see Luke Skywalker on a toilet to show what he is doing when he isn't training in the force?

I must say that I've always found it strange that urination and defication features so little in story telling - especially in ASoIaF, were we can have half a page describing a meal, you'd think a single line describing the fate of that meal would be justified.

[PatrickStormborn]

Why do people always seem to assume that everything that happens in an episode happens in one day? This isn't 24. Just because it doesn't say "One month later" at the bottom of the screen every time some long distances are covered doesn't mean time didn't pass.

The fact that nothing appears to have progressed in Winterfell between Cersei sending the raven and Littlefinger receiving the message implies that very little time has passed.

But the problem isn't even just the speed of the raven - it's the whole situation. Cersei sends a raven to the Eyrie; then Winterfell receives the message from a RIDER, who had to travel all the way from the Eyrie AFTER receiving the message. That should take at least more than a few scenes to happen, and it's obviously a glaring plot hole because the showrunners think their audience is full of idiots.

Basically, they wanted to explain how Cersei managed to get a raven all the way to Littlefinger but didn't account for how long it would take - because they know most people won't care.

[Daske]

The fact that nothing appears to have progressed in Winterfell between Cersei sending the raven and Littlefinger receiving the message implies that very little time has passed.

But the problem isn't even just the speed of the raven - it's the whole situation. Cersei sends a raven to the Eyrie; then Winterfell receives the message from a RIDER, who had to travel all the way from the Eyrie AFTER receiving the message. That should take at least more than a few scenes to happen, and it's obviously a glaring plot hole because the showrunners think their audience is full of idiots.

Basically, they wanted to explain how Cersei managed to get a raven all the way to Littlefinger but didn't account for how long it would take - because they know most people won't care.

But number of scenes is not a sure way at all to measure the overall passage of time. And you must presume that lots of boring stuff happens off-screen that takes time that we don't need to see or want to see.

Given that the kids are growing up, to look right each season should be a year, therefore each episode covers about a month. Or else there is a 9+ month gap between every season. So in many ways time cannot flow uniformly - it should be 'allowed' to be a bit fluid in drama if it adds to the flow of the story.

Yes time and distances seem to grow and shrink a bit, but it's not about being idiots, maybe a bit about not caring (that is not necesarily a bad thing) - suspending disbelief is already inherent in what allows exciting drama to happen and to entertain us, else we would be expecting whatever crazy stuff we see on TV to be happening around us every day.

[Johnsmith]

But the problem isn't even just the speed of the raven - it's the whole situation. Cersei sends a raven to the Eyrie; then Winterfell receives the message from a RIDER, who had to travel all the way from the Eyrie AFTER receiving the message. That should take at least more than a few scenes to happen, and it's obviously a glaring plot hole because the showrunners think their audience is full of idiots.

Basically, they wanted to explain how Cersei managed to get a raven all the way to Littlefinger but didn't account for how long it would take - because they know most people won't care.

It wasn't just a RIDER it was a Dawn RIDER. The maesters have confirmed winter did we not have that raven sceen.

So the sun set at what time around 5pm possibly even earlier in the North making that conversation happen in the afternoon, as the sun was shown setting. What is that journey time total about 10 odd hours from dawn about 5-6am until 3-5pm.

We understand Cersei needs Lightfinger's teleportation skills immediately before joining East with Narth.

Discounting all other geography, the colossal size of the Eyrie's mountains. That Sky castle, make him fly. A horse can travel how far in 10 hours?

Other information, those rebellious mountain clans. These Lightfinger must have routed before his Sansa trip. Possibly Brienne and the Hound killed them all, that poor farmer, because Tyrion recruited them all previously for the Blackwater..

[PatrickStormborn]

But number of scenes is not a sure way at all to measure the overall passage of time. And you must presume that lots of boring stuff happens off-screen that takes time that we don't need to see or want to see.

Given that the kids are growing up, to look right each season should be a year, therefore each episode covers about a month. Or else there is a 9+ month gap between every season. So in many ways time cannot flow uniformly - it should be 'allowed' to be a bit fluid in drama if it adds to the flow of the story.

Yes time and distances seem to grow and shrink a bit, but it's not about being idiots, maybe a bit about not caring (that is not necesarily a bad thing) - suspending disbelief is already inherent in what allows exciting drama to happen and to entertain us, else we would be expecting whatever crazy stuff we see on TV to be happening around us every day.

No, we cannot assume a year has passed in each season, because that contradicts what (little) information we have been given in the script.

In 3x08, Dany claims that "a fortnight ago I had no army [3x04], a year ago I had no dragons [1x10]", in which case we can presume that roughly a year has passed from 1x10-3x08. Given that season 1 spanned at least 9 months (for Dany's pregnancy), and our knowledge that Sansa was 13 in 1x01 and still 14 when she married Tyrion in 3x08, it makes sense to assume that 1x01-3x10 covered roughly no more than two years.

Now how much time has passed since then is more difficult to determine... Dany travelled 163 miles from Yunkai to Meereen, but we don't really have a comparison to make within the show to work out how long that might have taken. But we do know that Joffrey's wedding took place a fortnight after 4x01, and from there we can assume that events took place in quite a rapid succession: Tyrion was arrested, Tommen was crowned, Tyrion had his trial, Oberyn fought the Mountain, and Tyrion escaped. In 4x05 Cersei says that Tommen should marry Margaery in a fortnight, so it makes sense that the events following Tyrion's trial take place in less than two weeks.

But this then undermines the story, as Tywin manages to have a letter sent from King's Landing to Meereen between 4x05 (IIRC - perhaps I've misremembered this detail) and 4x08.

Considering that season 5 begins with Tywin's funeral, we can assume that no more than a week has passed between 4x10 and 5x01 for King's Landing. With news of Tywin's death having reached basically everyone else, we can assume that the timelines are around the same, with the storylines across the Narrow Sea potentially having a bit more flexibility.

So, even being as generous as possible with timings in season 4, I'd conclude that there's no possible way that more than 2 and a half years have passed from 1x01 to 5x03.

If you want to dismiss it as "suspension of disbelief" then go right ahead - I'm not trying to stop you from enjoying it! But the show should rightly be criticised if it is undermining its own internal logic, which it undeniably is.

[Daske]

My vague point there was either you suspend disbelief over how old the kids look year after year or suspend belief over the passage of time. One or other really. But it doesn't matter, that's kind of the point of suspending disbelief.

It's not necessarily a bad thing at all, we all do it a lot, and in most cases is necessary for something interesting to happen story-wise.

Tyrion bumping into people in the middle of nowhere. Bit of a coincidence. Tribespeople climbing thousands of feet of vertical ice with stone age tools. Don't think so. Building a massive chain to stop a fleet. Is that really possible? and so on. But we don't mind because it adds drama or fun.

A day or so out on a message delivery, that 50% of people won't notice, and 49% of people can suspend disbelief over then it's not really important if it prevents the story slowing down or makes it easier to pace the episode. There is a payoff to these things generally.

[MordredDayne]

No, we cannot assume a year has passed in each season, because that contradicts what (little) information we have been given in the script.

In 3x08, Dany claims that "a fortnight ago I had no army [3x04], a year ago I had no dragons [1x10]", in which case we can presume that roughly a year has passed from 1x10-3x08. Given that season 1 spanned at least 9 months (for Dany's pregnancy), and our knowledge that Sansa was 13 in 1x01 and still 14 when she married Tyrion in 3x08, it makes sense to assume that 1x01-3x10 covered roughly no more than two years.

Now how much time has passed since then is more difficult to determine... Dany travelled 163 miles from Yunkai to Meereen, but we don't really have a comparison to make within the show to work out how long that might have taken. But we do know that Joffrey's wedding took place a fortnight after 4x01, and from there we can assume that events took place in quite a rapid succession: Tyrion was arrested, Tommen was crowned, Tyrion had his trial, Oberyn fought the Mountain, and Tyrion escaped. In 4x05 Cersei says that Tommen should marry Margaery in a fortnight, so it makes sense that the events following Tyrion's trial take place in less than two weeks.

But this then undermines the story, as Tywin manages to have a letter sent from King's Landing to Meereen between 4x05 (IIRC - perhaps I've misremembered this detail) and 4x08.

Considering that season 5 begins with Tywin's funeral, we can assume that no more than a week has passed between 4x10 and 5x01 for King's Landing. With news of Tywin's death having reached basically everyone else, we can assume that the timelines are around the same, with the storylines across the Narrow Sea potentially having a bit more flexibility.

So, even being as generous as possible with timings in season 4, I'd conclude that there's no possible way that more than 2 and a half years have passed from 1x01 to 5x03.

If you want to dismiss it as "suspension of disbelief" then go right ahead - I'm not trying to stop you from enjoying it! But the show should rightly be criticised if it is undermining its own internal logic, which it undeniably is.

This. All of this.

Great breakdown of the time scale of things. It's just my opinion, but I think people are being a bit generous in their use of "suspension of disbelief." It's one thing to accept a world where there are dragons, wargs, black magic, etc. The world has presented these things as real, so dismissing the show because "dragons aren't real" or "there's no such thing as magic" is not suspending your disbelief. Desiring that the size of the world and travel times are reasonably consistent from season to season has less to do with suspension of disbelief than it has to do with logical consistency. It's not the most important thing, It doesn't ruin the show or anything like that, but it takes me out of scenes, which can dampen my appreciation for them.

[El Guapo]

I had no problem at all with Sansa going from Moat Cailin to Winterfell in one episode. That to me was fine. The message that Cersei sent to the Eyrie which was then given to a rider who traved to Winterfell all in one episode. Yeah,t hat was ridculous. If they had just waited to the next episode for Petyr to get I would have been fine.

[PatrickStormborn]

My vague point there was either you suspend disbelief over how old the kids look year after year or suspend belief over the passage of time. One or other really. But it doesn't matter, that's kind of the point of suspending disbelief.

It's not necessarily a bad thing at all, we all do it a lot, and in most cases is necessary for something interesting to happen story-wise.

Tyrion bumping into people in the middle of nowhere. Bit of a coincidence. Tribespeople climbing thousands of feet of vertical ice with stone age tools. Don't think so. Building a massive chain to stop a fleet. Is that really possible? and so on. But we don't mind because it adds drama or fun.

A day or so out on a message delivery, that 50% of people won't notice, and 49% of people can suspend disbelief over then it's not really important if it prevents the story slowing down or makes it easier to pace the episode. There is a payoff to these things generally.

Suspension of disbelief over actors' ages is hugely different to suspension of disbelief when it comes to the INTERNAL LOGIC of the show. If critics held them to the same standard, reviews would be pretty much pointless.

If you want to suspend disbelief because you want to be entertained - please, go for it! I'm not stopping you! But don't tell me I have to - I'm not going to, and I'm going to hold the show to the same standard I hold other dramas.

And the thing is... it's not like this is even relevant to how entertaining the show is. It's only relevant to its quality, and I think it's important to acknowledge the failings in its internal logic when the majority of critics are failing to do so.

Using a different show as an example, The Good Wife aired an episode this season which appears to have contradicted its established timeline. Fans who noticed it - myself included - were obviously critical of this. But it's not like that means the whole episode was ruined or whatever... It was just an extra point worth criticising and was obviously relevant to the quality of the episode and the season.

It's just so typical for fans of this show to dismiss valid criticisms by falling back on "it's entertaining". I don't care if it's entertaining - that's purely subjective. I'm acknowledging a valid criticism based on the show's internal logic.

As for the points you've made about ASOIAF... I'm not sure why they're relevant? I'm not actually saying the show's failure in its timeline has anything to do with the books. I thought the show was its own entity? :rolleyes:

But I'll address them. Tyrion "bumping into people" is definitely a coincidence, and a lot of brilliant drama is built on coincidences that have been appropriately foregrounded. Tyrion meeting Cat and Jorah made sense, and didn't exactly work to his best advantage. When it comes to climbing the Wall, the show is even less believable than the books unfortunately LOL. In the books only a handful of wildlings - who had done it many times before - scaled the Wall. And even then there were a lot of deaths. Afterwards they lowered rope ladders so that inexperienced wildlings (and Jon) could climb. That does not contradict the internal logic of the text. The same goes for the giant chain - it makes sense in a world of Valyrian steel and sorcery.

This. All of this.

Great breakdown of the time scale of things. It's just my opinion, but I think people are being a bit generous in their use of "suspension of disbelief." It's one thing to accept a world where there are dragons, wargs, black magic, etc. The world has presented these things as real, so dismissing the show because "dragons aren't real" or "there's no such thing as magic" is not suspending your disbelief. Desiring that the size of the world and travel times are reasonably consistent from season to season has less to do with suspension of disbelief than it has to do with logical consistency. It's not the most important thing, It doesn't ruin the show or anything like that, but it takes me out of scenes, which can dampen my appreciation for them.

Yep, my thoughts exactly. :)

[jugdesh258]

Seems obvious that the dawn rider was mounted on gold chocobo.

If you wanna suspend disbelief ponder at why they dont have telegraph by now. It only took earth a few hundred years after coming out of dark ages. In 12000 years the wise Maesters have not even discovered electricty

[MordredDayne]

Seems obvious that the dawn rider was mounted on gold chocobo.

If you wanna suspend disbelief ponder at why they dont have telegraph by now. It only took earth a few hundred years after coming out of dark ages. In 12000 years the wise Maesters have not even discovered electricty

There is actually a So Spake Martin wherein GRRM addresses the technology issue:

January 21, 2000

TECHNOLOGY IN WESTEROS

There is an aspect of a SOI&F (and all high/medieval fanatasy) which has me puzzled. Why is there so little technological procees? The Starks have been medieval lords and kings for millenia, and it seems that there is very little chance of Westeros ever progessing beyond a medieval society. Is this becuase the existence of magic inhibits or precludes linear technological progress?

Oh, I wouldn't go that far.

I don't know that "linear technological progress" is necessarily inevitable in a society. In fact, if you look at our real world, it only happened once. Other cultures and societies existed for hundreds and in some cases thousands of years without ever experiencing major technological change.

In the specific case of Westeros, the unpredictable nature of the seasonal changes and the harshness of the winters must play a role.

I do think that magic perhaps makes development of the scientific method less likely. If men can fly by means of a spell, do you ever get the Wright Brothers? Or even daVinci? An interesting question, and I'm not sure I know the answer.

Source

[Johnsmith]

Tha why haven't they gan and unvented tha nuclear fission, cloning, flying saucers, stealth, computer, robots, is not a valid argument in a swords and sorcery epic universe at all.

However simple continuity is always questionable to scale, timeline, and geography, if it is within constant contradiction

[Grayven]

I had no problem at all with Sansa going from Moat Cailin to Winterfell in one episode. That to me was fine. The message that Cersei sent to the Eyrie which was then given to a rider who traved to Winterfell all in one episode. Yeah,t hat was ridculous. If they had just waited to the next episode for Petyr to get I would have been fine.

That's nothing.. Cersei aged from a little girl all the way to a grown adult in the course of a single frame! D&D are idiots.

[Lord Damian]

Honestly, people are worrying too much about the logistics/size of Westeros. No big deal. Dany will sail it or fly it in one day eventually, when she gets around to it.

[ummester]

@ PatrickStormborn,

RE: In 3x08, Dany claims that "a fortnight ago I had no army [3x04], a year ago I had no dragons [1x10]", in which case we can presume that roughly a year has passed from 1x10-3x08. Given that season 1 spanned at least 9 months (for Dany's pregnancy), and our knowledge that Sansa was 13 in 1x01 and still 14 when she married Tyrion in 3x08, it makes sense to assume that 1x01-3x10 covered roughly no more than two years.

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Dany is speaking for dramatic effect, more than historical accuracy - assuming that when she says a year means 365 days, or that when she says a fortnight means 14 days is stupid. She means a year or so, a fortnight or so, or less.

Sansa could have been 13 and 1 day in S1E01 and 14 and 364 days when she married Tryion - there is a whole year of time to play around with in there, which has been deliberately left undefined for suspension of disbelief purposes.

I am a critical viewer, I get being critical - but what you suggest is more than critical. If your boss goes get that report finished next week sometime, you can hand it in on Monday or Friday and still fulfill your bosses request.

RE: Suspension of disbelief over actors' ages is hugely different to suspension of disbelief when it comes to the INTERNAL LOGIC of the show. If critics held them to the same standard, reviews would be pretty much pointless.

If you want to suspend disbelief because you want to be entertained - please, go for it! I'm not stopping you! But don't tell me I have to - I'm not going to, and I'm going to hold the show to the same standard I hold other dramas.

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Dramatic fictional works, TV shows, books or films, don't present time with accurate detail. Even stories that have counters still jump time in places. 24 hrs til the end of the Earth, 8 hrs til the end of the Earth, 2 mins til the end of the Earth - type of thing. Time can be used for dramatic effect, but drama is seldom based on actual time, only the in story time set up for the effect.

GoTs has had some disjointed eps but I have not seen any examples of negative, distinctly non linear or impossible time taking place. You're being specifically critical of an element in GoTs because of some emotional bias or something, but you aren't presenting any examples that represent actual issues with time. If 2 characters in the same scene, at the same time, both were with Tyrion yesterday, in different scenes, in places separated by logically more than a day - it is a plot hole. But nothing in GoTs is defined so accurately - and neither is ASoIaF.

GRRM has specifically said he doesn't want readers getting bogged down on distances and time and stuff, so he leaves them deliberately vague. D&D are just following the example set by the novels.

[ummester]

I had no problem at all with Sansa going from Moat Cailin to Winterfell in one episode. That to me was fine. The message that Cersei sent to the Eyrie which was then given to a rider who traved to Winterfell all in one episode. Yeah,t hat was ridculous. If they had just waited to the next episode for Petyr to get I would have been fine.

That's the disjointed thing playing out - and I can understand that. It is not an example of time bending or behaving strangely in the show - but it is an example of the flow of time in episode being disjointed enough to upset a viewers sense of in show time.

[ummester]

Just regarding this:

So, even being as generous as possible with timings in season 4, I'd conclude that there's no possible way that more than 2 and a half years have passed from 1x01 to 5x03.

I don't think that is true.

If we use Sansa as the yardstick, considering she is one of the few characters that has disclosed age, it is possible that almost 2 years passed between S1E01 and Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. We don't know how long Sansa and Tyrion were married before the Purple Wedding - but it could have been 6 months. It could have been 12 months. Sansa could have been over 15 when she fled Kings Landing, in show - we just have no way of telling, because it is that undisclosed time between 2 seasons.

The most time that could have passed between S1E01 and S5E03 is 4 years. It's probably meant to be closer to 3.

I found that disclosing Sansa's age is a big fuck up on behalf of the show - but again, the book did this first. I was so disappointed to read Dany was 13 at the start of the books. Why even include it? Other than some kind of need to be controversial on GRRMs behalf, I see no point. It is better to not disclose character ages, to leave it vague - which GRRM seems to do most of the time, except for when it comes to kids and sex, which makes me think there is a deliberate desire to write something controversial, at the least, and a much worse desire, at the worst.

[Benjaario Starkharis]

In season 1 they were referring to Bob's Rebellion as "17 years ago", but then in season 4 Littlefinger says it's been 20 years since the rebellion. He could be rounding it up, but the number fits the "one season=one year" idea. Cersei also says in season 4 she became queen when she was 19, and in the same season both Tywin and Joffrey say Jaime is 40 years old, so apparently it has really been some 20 years since Bob's Rebellion and at least three years have passed between season 1 and 4.