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"Edd, fetch me a block," and other book dialogue:


Davos is King

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I preferred "your sister" to "only Cat," and I thought "Olly fetch me my sword" made more sense in the context of the scene, and was just straight up more badass.

If it had been written as "Edd, fetch me my sword," that would be what everyone who read it first thought was amazing, since it basically means the same thing: Jon's about to behead a bitch. And if the show changed it to "fetch me a block," everyone would be like "people won't know what a block is, the sword line was so cool! D&D are hacks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111"

:cheers:

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I'm less bothered by the line change and more bothered by how rushed the sequence was. The speed with which the decision was made and the way it played out onscreen changes the subtext and context of it.

Book-Jon is shown to still be in the learning process of his leadership. He gives Slynt every chance to back down and do as he was told and takes time to consider his options. The whole point of Jon realising his mistake in asking for him to be hanged is the obvious callback to Ned's words. We're seeing his progression as a character, his arc in motion.

Show-Jon, meanwhile, makes his decision almost instantly without giving him any second chances. There's no development here. It's like the plot is just a collection of moments that haven't been earned.

Book-Jon carries out the execution in a professional and calm manner. The point here is to draw a distinction between this and some previously detailed botched executions and that his primary motivation is his duty as LC rather than any pre-conceived notions about Slynt.

Show-Jon, meanwhile, looks to be conducting a professional and calm execution right up until Slynt starts snivelling. Then he suddenly pulls a face and swings the sword with a lot of emotion on his face. Whether that was simply Kit's decision or in D&D's notes or at the guidance of the director, I don't know, but I don't think it was the right decision unless they wanted to portray Jon as feeling like he's getting some revenge for Ned.

And that's the key. To me, all the details I saw in the scene suggested they wanted to portray it as a revenge killing as much as his duty as LC, maybe more so. If they wanted that, then fine (though it's hard to put stock in the opinions of what was intended in people who have portrayed scenes of allegedly consensual sex as rape), but if not then they've screwed the scene right up.

Although, the omission of the line in question does bring up a different source of contention for me. The consistent marginalisation and inadequate portrayal of Dolorous Edd, who just appears to be like any other NW man.

That's just it. I took away a totally different take on the emotion Jon was showing as he swung the sword. I interpreted it not as anger or revenge for Slynt's role in Ned's betrayal, but rather that Slynt admitting his cowardice was making it harder for Jon to do what he knew he had to do, because Slynt essentially confessed to his most basic defect: he was a coward at heart.

I don't disagree with you that the scene felt rushed. But you have to think to yourself, if you hadn't read ADWD and know that in the text Jon allows Slynt a day and several chances to reconsider his intransigence, would the scene still feel rushed to you? I felt like it was rushed because I know how it happened in the books.

The other thing about the sensation of it being rushed is, again, that the show has 10 hours this season to tell a story that goes on for about 1,800 or more pages in book form. It HAS to rush everything, literally. Jon Snow is one character out of hundreds, he will get maybe 2 hours out of that 10, tops. And as book readers we also know how much ground he has to cover.

I strongly disagree when you say there is no character development here. There most definitely is. We see what kind of a leader Jon is going to be as Lord Commander. He demonstrates that he will treat his men fairly, as evidenced by his appointment of Alliser Thorne as First Ranger, and then he demonstrates how he will treat those who disobey his orders and disrespect his authority with what he does to Janos Slynt. Again, this all seems to come down to not recognizing that the show has not and never will make clear the internal thoughts of GRRM's POV characters for the simple reason that there is no easy way to do that on a television show. Show-Jon is actively displaying what type of leader he will be because we cannot hear his thoughts. Book-Jon can have all the internal conflict he wants, because we can read what his thoughts are while outwardly he appears to be another emotion entirely.

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I didn't say there was no plot development, I said meant there was no character development.



My entire point is that they're eschewing character development for plot development, which causes a problem because character should drive the plot first and foremost.



Edit: Okay, reading it back, I admit I didn't make that absolutely clear.


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I thought that the show made Slynt's execution look far more professional than the book does. It does happened a lot quicker in the show than in the book but that is partly because in the book we have Jon unsure and making his mind up on the spot, Jon then changing his mind, Marsh freaking out and Slynt running round Castle Black and having to be dragged out of the winch cage then begging for mercy. Not at all professional.


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I thought that the show made Slynt's execution look far more professional than the book does. It does happened a lot quicker in the show than in the book but that is partly because in the book we have Jon unsure and making his mind up on the spot, Jon then changing his mind, Marsh freaking out and Slynt running round Castle Black and having to be dragged out of the winch cage then begging for mercy. Not at all professional.

I would argue the book version was more realistic. The show gets away with having no madness going on at the decision due to its portrayal of Slynt the coward as opposed to the Slynt who was a genuine contender to be LC. When I agued for professionalism of the moment in the books it was for the actual moment of the execution rather than the lead-up to it.

Edit: yet once again, I point out that the whole point of that lead-up is the character development that Jon goes through. Although, I do think it was more professional of Jon to give Slynt every chance to obey before passing the sentence.

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There is always a way to portray some kind of thought process. We can't hear exactly what it is but we can see that there is something going on in his head. It wouldn't have taken that long to show him give an order and then change his mind. Jon only has to loudly say "Wait! This is wrong!", followed by a short beat, then whatever line they want to change the book-line into. That's exactly how it is in the books. That at least lets viewers have a chance to work it out.

There is, but short of actually having something like a voice-over with the exact thoughts of that character, there will always be a large degree of ambiguity. Case in point: you and I, in this thread, have already expressed differing opinions/interpretations of the emotion Jon was showing as he beheaded Janos Slynt. Was it anger over Slynt's involvement in Ned's death? Was it wanting to show mercy but knowing his hand was forced by events? Ambiguity.

I didn't say there was no plot development, I said meant there was no character development.

My entire point is that they're eschewing character development for plot development, which causes a problem because character should drive the plot first and foremost.

Edit: Okay, reading it back, I admit I didn't make that absolutely clear.

Yeah, I meant to say character development instead of plot development. I think there definitely was character development in that scene.

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There is, but short of actually having something like a voice-over with the exact thoughts of that character, there will always be a large degree of ambiguity. Case in point: you and I, in this thread, have already expressed differing opinions/interpretations of the emotion Jon was showing as he beheaded Janos Slynt. Was it anger over Slynt's involvement in Ned's death? Was it wanting to show mercy but knowing his hand was forced by events? Ambiguity.

I don't see any other reasonable interpretation of Show-Jon's actions. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but to me if he had any mercy available in him for Slynt he would have given him more chances to obey and the emotion he displays when he does the deed doesn't fit the interpretation in my opinion. I don't see the moment as ambiguous at all, and if it is it isn't ambiguous in an interesting, thought-provoking way, which is always the point of using ambiguity in a story.

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I don't see any other reasonable interpretation of Show-Jon's actions. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but to me if he had any mercy available in him for Slynt he would have given him more chances to obey and the emotion he displays when he does the deed doesn't fit the interpretation in my opinion. I don't see the moment as ambiguous at all, and if it is it isn't ambiguous in an interesting, thought-provoking way, which is always the point of using ambiguity in a story.

Jon wasn't as patient with Janos on the show, sure. But he did give him ample chance to survive the exchange when he asked right out whether he was disobeying Jon. Slynt looked to Thorne, thought he had his support, and rolled the dice. While not given the amount of time he had in the books, he was given opportunity to submit to Jon's order.

When you factor that in, and add to it that on the block Janos does all of the following: begs, repents for his actions both that day and prior, and admits to his core flaw, that he is a coward, you can't believe for a split second that Jon may not want to murder him? Jon has been the show's moral center since Ned died, and on the show he has no idea of the role that Slynt had in Ned's death, either. If it was a look of anger and vengeance, why would Jon take so long to bring down the sword? He clearly hesitates. Why hesitate if you want to do it?

But the whole point of this is that it's not immediately clear simply by his outward actions what Jon's thought process is. Can you not agree that television is a medium that requires more demonstrable action than a book, which can rely more on internal monologues and other devices that will not translate to a more visual medium?

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All I remember is him listening to Slynt's snivelling, then angrily chopping his head off. He's supposed to give the man some last words before doing the deed.



The anger in the way Kit played the scene did not and does not suggest to me what you're saying it does. All those questions you just posed are the reasons I have an issue with the way it played out. I felt it created a negative impression of Jon.


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I took his anger at Slynt being based on the fact that not only did he show immense cowardice in the battle against Mance's army, but he once again came across as a coward who wanted to get out of his execution when Jon was about to swing the sword.



Slynt knew what the penalty was for disobediance, yet he constantly talked shit and then had the audacity to beg for his life. Jon's a Northerner and I can easily imagine that begging for your life is one of the more dishonorable thing for Northmen, so from his perspective it makes sense. Plus Jon saw Ned behead another Night's Watch member who disobeyed his orders by deserting and that member at least took his execution with some dignity.


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"Edd, fetch me a block" is not an iconic line.

"Winter is coming" is iconic.

"A Lannister always pays his debts" is iconic.

"Dracarys" is iconic.

"Ser Ilyn, bring me his head" is iconic.

"The night is dark and full of terrors" is iconic.

"Edd, fetch me a block" doesnt even rank near "Chop off his manhood and feed it to the goats". It's nothing.

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Um, I didn't say that Jon didn't do the deed himself. You've just said, basically, that all those things have one thing in common: they're all beheadings. Imo, the show lost a great chance to really accentuate that Jon was remembering Ned's teachings (i.e. being a Stark) when they didn't have him first say to hang Slynt and then change his mind to do the deed himself. The changing of his mind on how to execute Slynt would have been the call-back to Ned's teachings. Another deliberately skipped opportunity on the show that would have been so easy to include.

The audience isn't quite as stupid as you seem to think they are. There's not anyone who watched that scene that didn't think of Ned. The point got across just fine.

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Um, I didn't say that Jon didn't do the deed himself. You've just said, basically, that all those things have one thing in common: they're all beheadings. Imo, the show lost a great chance to really accentuate that Jon was remembering Ned's teachings (i.e. being a Stark) when they didn't have him first say to hang Slynt and then change his mind to do the deed himself. The changing of his mind on how to execute Slynt would have been the call-back to Ned's teachings. Another deliberately skipped opportunity on the show that would have been so easy to include.

Agree

Plus it would have been good to see a flash of Arya hugging Jon when she is thinking of throwing Needle away for further visual context to reinforce the heartbreak of it all, it's not just a sword or a reminded of her family it is a reminder of the sibling (or "sibling") she was closest to

Not hard to do...

That's the show for you, they are 9/10 but there are a lot of small things that could reinforce it which they don't seem to do which would make it 10/10 and a lot of it revolves around nods to the books. most don't care, but if you are going to have to make adaption changes it's always good to acknowledge the source material with nods out of respect

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All I remember is him listening to Slynt's snivelling, then angrily chopping his head off. He's supposed to give the man some last words before doing the deed.

The anger in the way Kit played the scene did not and does not suggest to me what you're saying it does. All those questions you just posed are the reasons I have an issue with the way it played out. I felt it created a negative impression of Jon.

You must have missed the dialogue where he did just that: "If you have any last words, my lord, now would be the time."

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As for the lead-up, the whole direct defiance and shove it up your bastard ass is direct in a way that means Jon has no choice (limited screen time etc) unlike the books where it is passive defiance



Thing with me though, maybe it's a character development thing, but the whole "I was afraid" seemed to be a reference to Jon feeling for Sam with his "I am a coward" line in S1 and a moments hesitation ala Ygritte in season 2 so for a split second it is showing the hesitation but then he pushes through those old boundaries. A good lead-up to "kill the boy" perhaps



The scene also gave me the impression that if Maestar Aemon had been there he would have interrupted Janos and told him his duty, similar to how he altered the course of Jon when he was dragged before the leadership early in S4



Thorne was brilliantly acted though, didn't say a word yet effectively conveyed so much


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The audience isn't quite as stupid as you seem to think they are. There's not anyone who watched that scene that didn't think of Ned. The point got across just fine.

Not my point at all and please stop deliberately misrepresenting my point just so you can argue with yourself. First, it's laughable that you presume to speak for everyone in the world who saw that scene. As just one example, I didn't automatically think of Ned when seeing that scene. My first thought was more why did they make Slynt confess to always being afraid so then it looked, right at the end, that Jon executed him for cowardice more than anything else? Second, my point was, is, and always will be that, imo, it was yet another missed opportunity on the show runners' part. In no way did I say or even imply that I think the show's audience is stupid (that's merely your own strawman).

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Agree

Plus it would have been good to see a flash of Arya hugging Jon when she is thinking of throwing Needle away for further visual context to reinforce the heartbreak of it all, it's not just a sword or a reminded of her family it is a reminder of the sibling (or "sibling") she was closest to

Not hard to do...

That's the show for you, they are 9/10 but there are a lot of small things that could reinforce it which they don't seem to do which would make it 10/10 and a lot of it revolves around nods to the books. most don't care, but if you are going to have to make adaption changes it's always good to acknowledge the source material with nods out of respect

And I agree with this. One thing I think is pretty common the hear about making shows, movies, etc. is "Show! Don't tell!" Well, imo, the show often doesn't do a great job of "showing" the audience what is integral to know and is sometimes guilty of "showing" the audience unnecessary things. Things that then potentially take precious screen time away from the central story.

And, yes, I do wonder, if the source material is so awesome (which I still think the show runners believe), why is so much changed that seemingly doesn't need to be changed? Also, before anyone levels the "Book Purist!" marginalizing label in my general direction let me just reiterate that I don't think everything from the books should or even could be included in the show. That would simply be an impossibility.

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You must have missed the dialogue where he did just that: "If you have any last words, my lord, now would be the time."

I didn't miss that at all. You misinterpreted my comment, which was in reply to a discussion about an alleged hesitation in Jon's actions.

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