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Robb's Will vs. Stannis' Will


Mithras

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dont see it happening. Stannis has been spending most of the books talking about how the laws of succession make him the one true king, if he dies, that would make shireen the rightful heir, and stannis wouldnt throw her aside in his will, especially since he has already explicitly said to Justin Massey that if he dies he should bring the sellswords over to fight for shireen instead, so he clearly isnt considering the idea.

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Interesting. This would be a path to the Iron Throne for Jon. Most wonder if R+L=Legitimate Jon if he could even become King as there is little support he could draw upon (besides being the hero of the Long Night). Stannis decrees Jon as his heir (which means the last Baratheon legitimizes his claim) as well as the King in the North. Reveal (somehow irrefutable evidence) that he is a legitimate Targaryen and you have the support of the Targaryen loyalists.



It's a long shot. Not sure if Stannis would do it, but he might feel Jon is the only one capable of continuing his mission and seeing his line on the throne. I don't see Shireen and Jon getting married though.


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In the books, Stannis is very prickly towards Jon but Mel said that Stannis values him and it is his way of showing it. In the show, things are much more soft between Stannis and Jon. Davos said that Stannis sees something in Jon. Stannis defended Jon against Selyse.


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By the time Jon learns Robb's Will, he will most probably learn R+L=J. Moreover, Rickon is about to appear and Bran is likely to communicate with Jon as well. So, considering that Jon held the missing Sansa over himself, there is no way he can take Winterfell at that point.

That is a lot of assumption on your part.

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That is a lot of assumption on your part.

Without assumptions, no theory is possible.

The important thing is that how plausible are those assumptions.

From narrative perspective, Rickon has to be found by Davos and brought back. Considering that more than two months passed between Manderly-Davos dialogue and the escape of Theon, Davos has a lot of time to do what he is supposed to do. So, those are not so bad assumptions.

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Rickon is a little boy. Jon is a war leader needed at such times and I also think that Stannis will learn R+L=J from Jon.

And little boys are easier to manipulate and control than a teen. Add to that, the fact that the Northern lords would more likely follow a trueborn Stark than a stark bastard.

I'm not sure why Jon being a "war leader" or the offspring of R+L would make Stannis more likely to make Jon his heir.

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Kings don't just go around picking their heirs, they follow the laws of sucession unless they lack heirs. I think people get thrown off because both Robert and Robb made wills - but Robert's named the Regent, not the heir, and Robb had cause to disinherit his only remaining heir as an (unwilling) enemy of his kingdom. Stannis' heir is Shireen, and with no cause to disinherit her he has neither need nor justification for making a will.

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Of course there is no such thing as Stannis' Will as far as we know. However, it is possible that Stannis might write a similar will to that of Robb before going to a serious war (most probably against Dany).

So, what do you think? A will of Stannis releasing Jon from the NW and declaring him his heir with bethrothing him to Shireen would be quite a thing.

Well, that's...a new take that will certainly annoy all the Jon/Val shippers. :lol: Personally I welcome our Stark/Targaryen/Baratheon overlords and shall be over here in my corner when the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin.

Stannis might be the one that does what Robert was going to do, reuniting Starks and Baratheons with his kid marrying Rickon if Davos find Rickon and is still alive.

This suggestion I have seen before actually, although I am not sure how politically feasible it is if we assume Shireen is heir and that Rickon will end up the same. Should female primogeniture actually happen, then Sansa and Arya go in before Rickon, but that is a maybe there as it depends on whether or not Dany succeeds in becoming Westeros' queen and reversing the Targaryen view on female primogeniture.

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And little boys are easier to manipulate and control than a teen. Add to that, the fact that the Northern lords would more likely follow a trueborn Stark than a stark bastard.

I'm not sure why Jon being a "war leader" or the offspring of R+L would make Stannis more likely to make Jon his heir.

Manipulation is the real danger here. What if the person in power after the death of Stannis shakes hands with the enemy and gives Shireen to say the Lannisters or fAegon? Alester tried to do that even while Stannis is alive. Can Stannis truly trust his Lords (except Davos) to follow Shireen as loyal as they did him after he dies?

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Interesting - in the show, Jon repeatedly says - I am bound to Nights watch for this life... Doesn't mean when he 'dies' and is resurrected, he is not bound anymore making him more feasible to be a king?

Even with R+L=J, How would he be legitimate? Is that assuming R and L marry? If not, does it make him Jon Blackfyre instead?

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Interesting - in the show, Jon repeatedly says - I am bound to Nights watch for this life... Doesn't mean when he 'dies' and is resurrected, he is not bound anymore making him more feasible to be a king?

Even with R+L=J, How would he be legitimate? Is that assuming R and L marry? If not, does it make him Jon Blackfyre instead?

Every iteration of the "R+L=J" thread starts with a FAQ, you might want to read it. (And Blackfyre is not a generic name for bastards with Targ blood. It's a family name like any other, it belongs to Daemon Blackfyre and his descendants. For Jon to be a Blackfyre, he'd have to be a legitimate son of some Blackfyre.)

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Interesting - in the show, Jon repeatedly says - I am bound to Nights watch for this life... Doesn't mean when he 'dies' and is resurrected, he is not bound anymore making him more feasible to be a king?

Even with R+L=J, How would he be legitimate? Is that assuming R and L marry? If not, does it make him Jon Blackfyre instead?

Bastard's last name is not a hard set rule. Sometimes its where you are born sometimes its where you live. So Jon Snow or Jon Sand.

But Rhaegar and Lyanna were married so it's a moot point

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Kings don't just go around picking their heirs, they follow the laws of sucession unless they lack heirs. I think people get thrown off because both Robert and Robb made wills - but Robert's named the Regent, not the heir, and Robb had cause to disinherit his only remaining heir as an (unwilling) enemy of his kingdom. Stannis' heir is Shireen, and with no cause to disinherit her he has neither need nor justification for making a will.

Kings have the ultimate power to pick their heirs. It seems that Aerys chose Viserys as his heir after the death of Rhaegar although by law, Aegon was the rightful heir.

Stannis will surely consider Shireen as the rightful monarch and her future children will derive their claims from Shireen, not whoever her consort would be. Remember his main concern will be to create an alliance which will pursue Shireen's rights even after Stannis dies. And I think he will consider this before making his war with Dany. I don't think he could find anyone more suitable than Jon for this purpose. Jon will have the support of the North for sure. As a Targaryen, he will also be politically a good choice against Dany. All those who will have no option or desire to join Dany will now have another alternative. Whether Jon agrees to it or not, I think it is a good move for Stannis to ensure that his line continues.

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I think there may be an underlying message in Jon being betrayed when he finally decides to forsake his vows for the sake of his family/house. The moment he did that is when he was imediately stopped, suggesting that he won't be anything to the North (read KitN).


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Bastard's last name is not a hard set rule. Sometimes its where you are born sometimes its where you live. So Jon Snow or Jon Sand.

But Rhaegar and Lyanna were married so it's a moot point

Doubt it. His story has been about him being a bastard and the consequences of it. Legitimize him and it not only cheapens his story, but it goes against what GRRM tries to achieve in his books, bittersweet.

Be far better if he is a bastard. It's what his storyline has followed and what shapes his character.

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Doubt it. His story has been about him being a bastard and the consequences of it. Legitimize him and it not only cheapens his story, but it goes against what GRRM tries to achieve in his books, bittersweet.

Be far better if he is a bastard. It's what his storyline has followed and what shapes his character.

Not really. What is the point of "Oh shit. I am a bastard but not the bastard I thought I was."

What is the point of making him a bastard and then sending him to an institution that renounces all the titles and claims from narrative perspective? It would be way more interesting if he learns he is legitimate, having sworn the vows of the NW.

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Doubt it. His story has been about him being a bastard and the consequences of it. Legitimize him and it not only cheapens his story, but it goes against what GRRM tries to achieve in his books, bittersweet.

Be far better if he is a bastard. It's what his storyline has followed and what shapes his character.

I'm in partial agreement. While I do think it will prove true that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, I don't think its a huge problem, as long as it doesn't change how Jon thinks of himself. This is one of the things that bothers me about the implications of the R+L=J thing (which I do believe is true, BTW) and that he'll end up being a dragonrider and such. Technically, he may be Jon Targaryen, with all the claims on the IT and such that come with it, and all of that will likely be very important, if not vital to the end of the story, but I don't think Jon will ever see himself as Jon Targaryen.

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