Modesty Lannister Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I'm sorry, but Stannis is not a brilliant military commander. Remember his siege of Kings Landing?No, just no.Compared to Stalin he was a genius. In the books, he withstood a long siege when he was fairly young and actually won the war against the Greyjoys destroying their fleet. He would have won the Blackwater battle had it not been for Tyrion's brilliant plan with wildfire. Tywin didn't think of that and he was also an excellent military commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Stalin = Roose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckongo Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I'm sorry, but Stannis is not a brilliant military commander. Remember his siege of Kings Landing?No, just no.Stannis has a pretty impressive track record overall. He withstood the siege at Storm's End (which kept the Tyrell's from fighting Robert during the war), he took Dragonstone from the Targaryens, he defeated Victarion's iron fleet at sea where they were strongest, he beat Mance Rayder when outnumbered 20-1... He did lose during the Battle of the Blackwater though. I'm not sure who I'd call a brilliant commander if not him. Robb Stark, I guess, or maybe Randall Tarly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Most commanders face a defeat or two sooner or later, it is inevitable if you fight enough battles. That Stannis lost the Battle of Blackwater Bay, when so many unforeseen thingswent against him does not really diminish his abilities as a commander. Just because something was "unforeseen" doesn't mean it was unforseeable Stannis made several major mistakes in the Blackwater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Lets start pointing out a few. 1. Deciding to attack a castle when an enemy army is nearby. Even if they wouldn't attack, Stannis should have taken into account that the Tyrells could have been a problem 2. Making Imry Florent your admiral, If you're gonna appoint an admiral make sure it's somebody willing to listen to reason These 2 alone are pretty ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckongo Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Stannis also sent Melisandre away when he needed her most in the Battle of the Blackwater; despite him only getting so far because of her. I'm surprised Stannis would care that people would diminish his victory as having been won through sorcery. He's never been one to let others' opinions influence his actions. His collaboration with Mel makes me more excited about the upcoming Battle of Ice. Stannis is on his own again without even Davos for counsel. I'd like to see Stannis pull through by relying on his military experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lykos Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Lets start pointing out a few. 1. Deciding to attack a castle when an enemy army is nearby. Even if they wouldn't attack, Stannis should have taken into account that the Tyrells could have been a problem 2. Making Imry Florent your admiral, If you're gonna appoint an admiral make sure it's somebody willing to listen to reason These 2 alone are pretty ridiculous I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForgottenKnight Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I'm sorry, but Stannis is not a brilliant military commander. Remember his siege of Kings Landing?No, just no. His one military defeat? The one he lost because of a semi-magical weapon of mass destruction? That makes him a terrible commander? Let's see here. Joffrey Twyin - Lost half his forces in a single battle and had his son captured. Undefeated with his remaining 30k until he was killed on the loo. Robb - Undefeated in every major battle. Sacrificed 2,000 men to distract Twyin and eliminate half his army. Failed politically and was betrayed by his own men.Balon - Uses his fleet of pirate ships to raid and attack relatively defenseless costal towns. Has not encountered any real resistance or fought any actual battles. Killed by a gust of wind. Renly - No military experience whatsoever. Magnanimous political figure and loved by the people. Killed before his first battle and most of his men went to the man who killed him. Stannis - Numerically outnumbered since day one. Killed his traitor brother and took control of the largest fighting force in Westeros in one fell swoop. Lost the Battle of Blackwater due to wildfire and a surprise attack from the rear. With his southern campaign lost he consolidates his forces and begins a second campaign in the North. Aids the Night's Watch against the Free Folk. Is now rallying support in the North and marching to conquer it. The only military commanders in Westeros that were close to equal were Twyin and Stannis. If you can reason someone better I would love to hear it. Oh and I would like to point out that Tywin was in the Riverlands fighting Robb. No one expected him to abandon his fight entirely, march his army that quickly, or make a surprise alliance with the Tyrells. But no he was nowhere near King's Landing. He just hauled ass to get there in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Lets start pointing out a few. 1. Deciding to attack a castle when an enemy army is nearby. Even if they wouldn't attack, Stannis should have taken into account that the Tyrells could have been a problem 2. Making Imry Florent your admiral, If you're gonna appoint an admiral make sure it's somebody willing to listen to reason These 2 alone are pretty ridiculousI think people are too hard on Imry Florent but I agree that there were better choices for Stannis's admiral. The problem is people on this board think holding a castle or winning battles is what makes a "great commander." Stannis is GOOD, and he excels as a subordinate commander. Give him a simple, straightforward mission and he gets the job done better than anyone. But he hasn't shown an ability to see the big picture and plan a wider war strategically. He jumps from one fight to the next and just kinda wings it (blackwater, winterfell, etc). Which is part of his charm. But his grim, admirable determination limits his ability to play the long game. Renly is often mocked as a shitty wartime leader but he understood how to achieve a real victory better than his older bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I think people are too hard on Imry Florent but I agree that there were better choices for Stannis's admiral.The problem is people on this board think holding a castle or winning battles is what makes a "great commander." Stannis is GOOD, and he excels as a subordinate commander. Give him a simple, straightforward mission and he gets the job done better than anyone.But he hasn't shown an ability to see the big picture and plan a wider war strategically. He jumps from one fight to the next and just kinda wings it (blackwater, winterfell, etc). Which is part of his charm. But his grim, admirable determination limits his ability to play the long game.Renly is often mocked as a shitty wartime leader but he understood how to achieve a real victory better than his older broThat is why I never understood why Renly wanted the throne for himself. Had he joined Stannis, there would have been no war. Baratheon brothers would be a perfect ruling duo - Stannis as king and Renly as hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 That is why I never understood why Renly wanted the throne for himself. Had he joined Stannis, there would have been no war. Baratheon brothers would be a perfect ruling duo - Stannis as king and Renly as hand. Because Renly didnt want a Westeros ruled by Stannis, he felt Stannis would have made for an unlikable, unpopular king, a notion Stannis was proving correct UNTIL Davos told him to go North. The Tyrells would have probably not followed Stannis. It`s easy to forget but Stannis was the embodiment of entitlement in the second book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 That is why I never understood why Renly wanted the throne for himself. Had he joined Stannis, there would have been no war. Baratheon brothers would be a perfect ruling duo - Stannis as king and Renly as hand. Because Stannis disappeared for a whole year, ignored all ravens and didn't bother declaring himself till after Renly announced his bid for the throne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 The Baratheons could not get along, they would be too strong and we wouldn´t have an exciting story to read... The Starks are a family (pack of wolves), the Lannisters are a family (pack of lions)... both hunt deer (stag) that tend to run for themselves when hunted... And while wolves and lions fight each other, the stags are just their "food" to keep them fed and strong... and continue fighting... Well, that... or i´m a complete mental mess today :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 The Baratheons could not get along, they would be too strong and we wouldn´t have an exciting story to read... The Starks are a family (pack of wolves), the Lannisters are a family (pack of lions)... both hunt deer (stag) that tend to run for themselves when hunted... And while wolves and lions fight each other, the stags are just their "food" to keep them fed and strong... and continue fighting... Well, that... or i´m a complete mental mess today :dunno: Entertaining post....and true. But something about stags, they can be stubborn, they can belligerent, they can be violent and they tend to collide with other stags to assert their dominance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Entertaining post....and true. But something about stags, they can be stubborn, they can belligerent, they can be violent and they tend to collide with other stags to assert their dominance. Almost too poetic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Somebody pointed it out to me when I was confused as fuck about why on Earth the sigil of a houses of badasses.....was a fucking deer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspoi Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Well there were quite a lot of relatively unforeseeable events that happened. For instance the enourmus supply of wildfire which just so happened to be uncouvered and aided to the Lannisters or the Lannister-Tyrell alliance which while possible to happen did so at a very unfortunate time and very quickly, mostly because of Littlefinger. Then there is of course Tywin attacking him in the rear just at the right moment, without any careful planning but by sheer luck. If any of these things did not happen Stannis would have taken Kingslanding, captured Joffrey and won the war. So while the battle was a defeat, and there were things he could have done better it was not this enormous military blunder that some people claim it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Well there were quite a lot of relatively unforeseeable events that happened. For instance the enourmus supply of wildfire which just so happened to be uncouvered and aided to the Lannisters or the Lannister-Tyrell alliance which while possible to happen did so at a very unfortunate time and very quickly, mostly because of Littlefinger. Then there is of course Tywin attacking him in the rear just at the right moment, without any careful planning but by sheer luck. If any of these things did not happen Stannis would have taken Kingslanding, captured Joffrey and won the war. So while the battle was a defeat, and there were things he could have done better it was not this enormous military blunder that some people claim it to be. Not necessarily. Stannis would still be an immensely unpopular king with 20,000 men and the Lannisters and Tyrells would still not want him in power. Tommen would be in Rosby, Stannis probably kills Cersei and Joffrey and the Tyrells and Lannisters rally behind a new king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Somebody pointed it out to me when I was confused as fuck about why on Earth the sigil of a houses of badasses.....was a fucking deer.Stags are symbols of virility. In actual medieval times they used to represent Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Stags are symbols of virility. In actual medieval times they used to represent Christ. Oh, no wonder I never took to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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