[BOOK SPOILERS] Rant and Rave Part 2

[Tagganaro]

I think you're making perfect sense. Yeah, that would have been a decent plan to start out with. But I think it goes back to what I'm trying to say: they didn't really map out a good, workable plan from the beginning. It's been a classic example of that old adage "building the plane while flying it".

I still think that if they'd really sat down with Martin in the beginning and planned everything out to the end then they would have known earlier what they might not have needed to tell the core story. That would then have enabled them to begin trimming earlier and they wouldn't be in nearly the disjointed mess they're in now. For example (and I'm just spit-ballin' here), if they really planned to ultimately have Littlefinger take Sansa to Winterfell to marry Ramsey then they could have simply by-passed all the Vale stuff they had Littlefinger and Sansa doing. It would take some doing, no doubt, but I think good writers could make it work (especially with Martin's help with continuity). As it is, the Vale stuff just seems like such a waste and something that they were maybe going to pursue but then decided to just drop. Same with the Iron Born stuff.

I can certainly understand that. And now with the way the show is going, when things do turn around for the Starks it's going to be very rushed and lacking much of the set-up necessary for it to feel earned or even make sense.

The problem with this is that even GRRM, or especially GRRM lol, didn't have everything planned out either. As evidenced by the 2 most recent books. A lot of it is trial and error, and making stuff up on the fly for both the show-runners and GRRM. Didn't he just come out a few weeks ago and say he just came up with new twist for a major character?

[Lord Damian]

I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as this issue goes.

I too don't necessarily have a problem with it, since the actress is old enough. But, such a scene, in my opinion, has to be relevant to advancing something important to the overall story.

I think the key issue here is trust. I simply do not trust D & D at this point. Sophie has obviously become a very attractive young lady and I am sure that fact has not escaped D & D's notice. I wouldn't put it past them to milk it for all it's worth. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that D & D asked her to shoot all her scenes wearing nothing but a g-string and a couple of pasties.

Yeah but the thing is also, Sophie, like Maisee were cast at such young ages, they have become established to the point that they cannot be recast. Sophie does not have to show nudity to keep her job. Unlike others like Natalie Dormer, once she did the Tudors, pretty much is a pre-requisite for every role since. Sophie would be foolish to do the nudity in any capacity, she is in demand and famous without having done so already. To do so now, I would lose respect for the actess. Agreed, D&D would love to have her nude, I am sure of that.

[Lord Damian]

Another thing that makes me worry is how seemingly uncomfortable and disappointed Sophie Turner has appeared to be in interviews pertaining to her story this season. I don't want to project feelings on her that she hasn't expressed, but considering the kind of pressure actors are under to promote their work, I think it is notable how unenthusiastic she has come across. This seems par for the course for D&D, though. A number of actors have previously expressed discomfort with scenes they've had to film. Add to that Neil Marshall's anecdote about the exec who represents "the perv side of the audience" and it makes for a pretty depressing picture.

This is what I am dreading and the Conleth Hill look he gave Sophie at the San Francisco premier said a lot. Sophie/Sansa does something that is so shocking and seemingly out of character, it will be hard for us to watch and process.

[Prince of the North]

The problem with this is that even GRRM, or especially GRRM lol, didn't have everything planned out either. As evidenced by the 2 most recent books. A lot of it is trial and error, and making stuff up on the fly for both the show-runners and GRRM. Didn't he just come out a few weeks ago and say he just came up with new twist for a major character?

He knew the core story or the plots of the major characters. That's what we've been told anyway. So why didn't D&D seem to plan their cutting and streamlining from the beginning rather than seemingly not giving it much thought until about season 3?

[Lord Damian]

He knew the core story or the plots of the major characters. That's what we've been told anyway. So why didn't D&D seem to plan their cutting and streamlining from the beginning rather than seemingly not giving it much thought until about season 3?

I guess D & D have worried in the past if they would get renewed for future seasons. Seems laughable now, since GOT is the most successful cable show in history but it was a concern at times since the budgets were and are so huge. So, they have had to streamline. The only dissapointing thing is that they are cutting through stuff they feel is unimportant to get to the end that they says is the same ending as GRRM. So deviations and ommitions from the show are spoilers in and of themselves.

[Prince of the North]

I guess D & D have worried in the past if they would get renewed for future seasons. Seems laughable now, since GOT is the most successful cable show in history but it was a concern at times since the budgets were and are so huge. So, they have had to streamline. The only dissapointing thing is that they are cutting through stuff they feel is unimportant to get to the end that they says is the same ending as GRRM. So deviations and ommitions from the show are spoilers in and of themselves.

Absolutely! But my point is that they didn't have that much-talked about meeting with Martin to discuss where the story/characters were going to end up until much too late. They had already made a few seasons, staying pretty faithful to the books, introducing pretty much everything, etc. only to now have to cut and drop things left and right. I simply think they could have planned better from the beginning.

And, yes, it was always a given that the show would eventually pass the books' story line. Unfortunately, spoiling was inevitable. I'm really only looking at the show as its own entity now and...I still don't think it's looking very good.

[King of Nowhere]

Maybe it's just me but am I the only one who feels something is fishy about Martin's departure from the show? I can't help but think that his official statement is nothing but a PR crap and the real reason he left the production is all those major changes and all D&D shit. Since GRRM is so passionate about his world and characters I can see how the butchery of his masterpiece could cause him to storm out of HBO's office

[Mourneblade]

I guess D & D have worried in the past if they would get renewed for future seasons. Seems laughable now, since GOT is the most successful cable show in history but it was a concern at times since the budgets were and are so huge. So, they have had to streamline. The only dissapointing thing is that they are cutting through stuff they feel is unimportant to get to the end that they says is the same ending as GRRM. So deviations and ommitions from the show are spoilers in and of themselves.

Walking Dead might argue against that lol

[Mourneblade]

Maybe it's just me but am I the only one who feels something is fishy about Martin's departure from the show? I can't help but think that his official statement is nothing but a PR crap and the real reason he left the production is all those major changes and all D&D shit. Since GRRM is so passionate about his world and characters I can see how the butchery of his masterpiece could cause him to storm out of HBO's office

Could be... he certainly has been getting more vocal about the differences without coming out and outright speaking his displeasure..

[kissdbyfire]

I've been having a nearly impossible time trying to get on here, the page doesn't finish loading, can't quote, etc etc. Anyone else experiencing the same issues? (Just curious if it's just me)

@Prince of the North,

regarding your reply hours ago... lol

The thing is, they had a long time to plan and map out things, right? Between the deal being made and the first series airing, they had some 5/6 yrs. And I understand that they didn't know if the show would be picked up or renewed, but still... 5 yrs it's enough time to have at least a very good outline on 'how to', imo. and now they're just paddling backend saying things like, 'we really didn't want to but there's no other way. BS, if you ask me. ;)

[Prince of the North]

I've been having a nearly impossible time trying to get on here, the page doesn't finish loading, can't quote, etc etc. Anyone else experiencing the same issues? (Just curious if it's just me)

@Prince of the North,

regarding your reply hours ago... lol

The thing is, they had a long time to plan and map out things, right? Between the deal being made and the first series airing, they had some 5/6 yrs. And I understand that they didn't know if the show would be picked up or renewed, but still... 5 yrs it's enough time to have at least a very good outline on 'how to', imo. and now they're just paddling backend saying things like, 'we really didn't want to but there's no other way. BS, if you ask me. ;)

I completely agree. I don't think the show runners really gave much thought to cutting/combining/streamlining until much, much too late. I am kind of becoming a broken record on this but, just as a couple of examples, the way things have gone in the show there really was no need for Littlefinger's and Sansa's story line in the Vale and there was no need at all for any Iron Born (except Theon...who could just be changed into a Northman).

[The Kind Nihilist]

Hi everyone,

Just out now from DD Comix:

Porne - Chapter I: The Brothel's Bouncer

100% Book Snob approved:

http://thekindnihilist.tumblr.com/

Enjoy!

[Fez]

I completely agree. I don't think the show runners really gave much thought to cutting/combining/streamlining until much, much too late. I am kind of becoming a broken record on this but, just as a couple of examples, the way things have gone in the show there really was no need for Littlefinger's and Sansa's story line in the Vale and there was no need at all for any Iron Born (except Theon...who could just be changed into a Northman).

I'll certainly agree with that. I'm perfectly fine with them making changes, and I think plenty of them do work just fine, but there's also a lot of apparent plot threads just dangling from when they were being more faithful that probably shouldn't have been brought up in the first place and I really wish that Tommen was always at this age instead of jumping around 4-5 years compared to everyone else.

Granted, I don't have much confidence in GRRM pulling it all together either, but D&D had the opportunity to avoid all that and didn't really start to until last season.

[Fjordgazer]

Hi everyone,

Just out now from DD Comix:

Porne - Chapter I: The Brothel's Bouncer

100% Book Snob approved:

http://thekindnihilist.tumblr.com/

Enjoy!

:rofl: Good job. You have to link the Glossary of the Snob for people to understand some of the lingo though.

[ToTheWolves]

I Came across this on tumblr. I didn't see watch myself but if this is true then this is just horrible if D+D thinks this.

"

I just watched the video, "D.B. Weiss and David Benioff go inside Episode 3." In it they talk about how Arya sees herself as an 'instrument of revenge' and how Needle is the 'way she is going to exact the revenge on the people who wronged her family,' and that's why she couldn't get rid of Needle. It made me want to throw things because Needle is SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT. What are your thoughts?"

[Fjordgazer]

Walking Dead might argue against that lol

On the "GOT is the most successful cable show in history" part? Or the "deviations and ommitions from the show are spoilers in and of themselves" part?

I've been having a nearly impossible time trying to get on here, the page doesn't finish loading, can't quote, etc etc. Anyone else experiencing the same issues? (Just curious if it's just me)

The forum runners are having a hard time with technical issues. Must be the expectable traffic spike during GOT season.

[Julia Martell]

Hi everyone,

Just out now from DD Comix:

Porne - Chapter I: The Brothel's Bouncer

100% Book Snob approved:

http://thekindnihilist.tumblr.com/

Enjoy!

I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed that. Poor Doran just getting progressively more depressed.

[kissdbyfire]

I Came across this on tumblr. I didn't see watch myself but if this is true then this is just horrible if D+D thinks this.

"

I just watched the video, "D.B. Weiss and David Benioff go inside Episode 3." In it they talk about how Arya sees herself as an 'instrument of revenge' and how Needle is the 'way she is going to exact the revenge on the people who wronged her family,' and that's why she couldn't get rid of Needle. It made me want to throw things because Needle is SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT. What are your thoughts?"

That's right, and not much to say other than THEY DON'T get it!

Read my sig.

On the "GOT is the most successful cable show in history" part? Or the "deviations and ommitions from the show are spoilers in and of themselves" part?

The forum runners are having a hard time with technical issues. Must be the expectable traffic spike during GOT season.

It was more than the usual 'guru meditation' but must be the heavy traffic.

[LadySharpTeeth]

I've seen a few references to St. Tyrion. What is meant by this?

It means that Tyrion's character has been made much more sympathetic in the show than he was in the books. They did it with Cersei as well. We call that character Carol, poor dear. In the books, Tyrion just raped a whore and will spend the next book and a half wallowing in self-pity.

[Le Cygne]

I Came across this on tumblr. I didn't see watch myself but if this is true then this is just horrible if D+D thinks this.

"

I just watched the video, "D.B. Weiss and David Benioff go inside Episode 3." In it they talk about how Arya sees herself as an 'instrument of revenge' and how Needle is the 'way she is going to exact the revenge on the people who wronged her family,' and that's why she couldn't get rid of Needle. It made me want to throw things because Needle is SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT. What are your thoughts?"

Check out the first part of part 1 of this thread, this bugged a lot of us. Needle is so much more than that, and Needle is Jon Snow's smile, sigh.