Heresy 166

[Black Crow]

...I fundamentally disagree. He already knows he is a "son of Winterfell." He already knows he is "no Stark." Learning he is Lyanna's son, instead of Ned's, changes this reality not at all.

But, even in your scenario, this would produce a very "dramatic emotional change." You've said before you have personal reasons for feeling this way in regards to finally learning who his mother is. That's totally cool. I get that. But Jon grew up calling Ned "father."

Finding out Ned is not his father, alone, will be incredibly dramatic for him, emotionally speaking. He never knew Lyanna. He can never know Lyanna. But in spite of that, at least Jon knew his father. At least he knew he was the Son of Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell. Jon has based his entire identity on that one fact.

"Knowing" he was Eddard Stark's bastard has been the one part of his upbringing that was certain. If/when he learns that his "father" Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell lied to him his entire life... learns that his "brothers" are not his brothers... learns that his "sisters" are not his sisters... and learns that not only is he "no Stark," but that his true father is of a different ancient House with different words, a different sigil, and a different purpose and relationship to Winter, it will shake Jon to his very soul.

Not explaining myself very well here because we're slightly at cross purposes. Learning that Lord Eddard was not after all his father will certainly be an enormous shock in itself, but its one which will be mitigated and eventually overcome by the knowledge that through his mother - who did not choose to abandon him - he remains a son of Winterfell.

That's going to happen whether his real father turns out to be Rhaegar Targaryen or anyone else. What I am saying that he has no emotional or other attachment to the man who made his mother pregnant, any more than has the son of a whore, and far less will he have any attachment to the house of the dragonlords. There will be no "it seems I must be a Targaryen prince" moment.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

To me, it implies there was a nice cave somewhere down (say, a Children dwelling), but it got overfull, and rather than dig out a new level even deeper, they dug one less deep.

So the reason for starting deep was 'well that is a handy cave'. Rather lame and unimportant, sure, but still ;)

I think this most likely. There may also be a tangle of white roots down yonder along with the bones of the dead.

[Black Crow]

I think this most likely. There may also be a tangle of white roots down yonder along with the bones of the dead.

Agreed, but with the caveat that the "lower levels" are most the natural tunnels, passages and halls of the sidhe hill on which Winterfell was built rather than man-made burial chambers.

[Remdawg]

But wouldn't it be a great twist if he wasn't a son of Winterfell? If we're thinking in terms of "George doesn't do obvious," it doesn't seem all that unlikely.

And if he is a son of Winterfell, Lyanna isn't really necessary to make that happen for Jon. And really, now that I think about it, Lyanna doesn't really offer anything of great consequence. At least nothing that Ned doesn't already provide...

Personally I think this would be awesome. A lot of themes of "king in deed" vs. "King in blood". Why not hero in deed vs. hero in blood type of thing. I think it would be awesome if Jon was Aegon and fAegon was lyanna's son (far fetched I know, but maybe with AD and was returned to Starfall with Dawn). One is the true king (well once upon an Aerys whim) and is set on a course of a son a winterfell and lives life in a mirror of mine Eddard. And you have some son of winterfell rising up in the south under the pretext of being a blood king but raised to actually be a good king in deed.

[Voice]

Not explaining myself very well here because we're slightly at cross purposes. Learning that Lord Eddard was not after all his father will certainly be an enormous shock in itself, but its one which will be mitigated and eventually overcome by the knowledge that through his mother - who did not choose to abandon him - he remains a son of Winterfell.

That's going to happen whether his real father turns out to be Rhaegar Targaryen or anyone else. What I am saying that he has no emotional or other attachment to the man who made his mother pregnant, any more than has the son of a whore, and far less will he have any attachment to the house of the dragonlords. There will be no "it seems I must be a Targaryen prince" moment.

Sure. We do agree somewhat, in that case. Except, now he will learn his mother's name, but she'll still be a complete stranger to him.

And we agree completely that there will be no "it seems I must be a prince" moment. 100% agreed there. Jon is the weir-wolf, white with red eyes. The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his [father] had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

But, I think we do disagree that Jon will not find it deeply important, and that learning of his father will have no bearing on his future. I believe it will.

I think this most likely. There may also be a tangle of white roots down yonder along with the bones of the dead.

May?

I'd say that is all but certain. We know of very few caverns adjacent to weirwood trees. Those we do know of are the home, and former homes, of children of the forest.

I've said this before, but haven't for a few Heresies now, so maybe it's time to again. The Last Hero sought to win back the lands lost in the long night before there was a Wall. These "dead lands" likely included Winterfell. That means the Last Hero could likely have made a journey into the cold north, just like Bran, but through lands that were won back, and returned to the "realms of men." These would be familiar places, like Winterfell and the Wolfswood.

It makes perfect sense that the first Stark would be buried at the very place the Last Hero found the children of the forest. Or, rather, where the children of the forest brought him, once they rescued him from the ice spiders following his trail.

Their greenseer likely had his own hill, correct? He or she likely had his/her own weirwood with a face, and roots to wed. And, that greenseer's barrow likely had a means to survive the cold that came with the long night. We've only seen one such place, and it happens to be at the place where Winter Fell, and where the descendants of the Last Hero still bore their neighbors with the words, "Winter is Coming."

Personally I think this would be awesome. A lot of themes of "king in deed" vs. "King in blood". Why not hero in deed vs. hero in blood type of thing. I think it would be awesome if Jon was Aegon and fAegon was lyanna's son (far fetched I know, but maybe with AD and was returned to Starfall with Dawn). One is the true king (well once upon an Aerys whim) and is set on a course of a son a winterfell and lives life in a mirror of mine Eddard. And you have some son of winterfell rising up in the south under the pretext of being a blood king but raised to actually be a good king in deed.

It would be far fetched, but not nearly as far fetched as the idea of Catelyn Stark not staying dead. I'm not saying it's the most likely of scenarios, but if "George doesn't do simple" then we shouldn't be looking at likely scenarios. RLJ is a likely scenario. Elio and Linda believe in it. And just as Elio dismissed Heresy, Parris dismissed RLJ. I'd say this bodes well for thinking outside of the box.

Jon could very well end up being "no Stark" ...in blood as well as name. And Dany could very well end up being the lovechild of Rhaegar and Lyanna. That doesn't sound so simple ;)

[Black Crow]

Sure. We do agree somewhat, in that case. Except, now he will learn his mother's name, but she'll still be a complete stranger to him.

And we agree completely that there will be no "it seems I must be a prince" moment. 100% agreed there. Jon is the weir-wolf, white with red eyes. The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his [father] had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

But, I think we do disagree that Jon will not find it deeply important, and that learning of his father will have no bearing on his future. I believe it will.

It seems so, but to my mind his mother will not be a complete stranger to him. Whilst he obviously never knew her, she was a Stark of Winterfell and therefore, biology aside, has so much in common with him whilst on the other hand Rhaegar is not only a complete stranger but an alien one. The point I'm making is that while there will be a shock at learning not that Rhaegar [or anyone else for that matter] was his father, but learning that his father was not Eddard Stark, he will have a lifeline in realising that he is still a son of Winterfell through his Winterfell mother. Attractions to Arya [or Sansa] aside I also think that in the end resolution of the mystery of his mother will actually help remove any moral scruples about eventually becoming Lord of Winterfell

[Remdawg]

It would be far fetched, but not nearly as far fetched as the idea of Catelyn Stark not staying dead. I'm not saying it's the most likely of scenarios, but if "George doesn't do simple" then we shouldn't be looking at likely scenarios. RLJ is a likely scenario. Elio and Linda believe in it. And just as Elio dismissed Heresy, Parris dismissed RLJ. I'd say this bodes well for thinking outside of the box.

Jon could very well end up being "no Stark" ...in blood as well as name. And Dany could very well end up being the lovechild of Rhaegar and Lyanna. That doesn't sound so simple ;)

For sure it wouldn't be very foreshadowed. Lots of head scratching as to why Jon looks like Arya that looks like Lyanna but hey if Gary Busey and Nick Nolte aren't related anything is possible!

Agree its not likely. Would be a savage twist though.

[Black Crow]

So, my question would be, is Martin working a grand subversion with Jon, or is GRRM doing his own version of the Hero's Journey? Forget the RLJ stuff for the moment, because we don't even need that mystery to say that Jon is the character that most resembles a generic fantasy hero; he's the one facing the "real threats" and reluctantly taking up the burden of command while the rest of the realm plays the game of thrones, he's a natural fighter, a natural leader, and in a world full of grey characters, Jon's morality remains mostly untarnished, his transgressions being of a variety that the reader isn't likely to hold against him (eg, Ygritte).

Whilst I agree, I'd also say that this very argument of itself undermines the R+L=Jon Targaryen theory insofar as Jon is already working towards all this as we speak, he doesn't need to learn that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen to wind him up and set him going. He's Jon Snow,

[Voice]

It seems so, but to my mind his mother will not be a complete stranger to him. Whilst he obviously never knew her, she was a Stark of Winterfell and therefore, biology aside, has so much in common with him whilst on the other hand Rhaegar is not only a complete stranger but an alien one. The point I'm making is that while there will be a shock at learning not that Rhaegar [or anyone else for that matter] was his father, but learning that his father was not Eddard Stark, he will have a lifeline in realising that he is still a son of Winterfell through his Winterfell mother. Attractions to Arya [or Sansa] aside I also think that in the end resolution of the mystery of his mother will actually help remove any moral scruples about eventually becoming Lord of Winterfell

I think we agree more than we disagree, at least in regards to Jon's mother (if she ends up being Lyanna... which has not yet been produced in the text).

But, the only Starks Jon has ever known are his father, uncle, and siblings. While Jon is familiar with "his" House, Lyanna will remain a stranger. She'll be a name he's heard... a smile he thinks he remembers... a face he can almost imagine.

I agree Rhaegar, or any other lordly father, will be an alien influence, but nonetheless, it will influence him. And, I'd go so far as to say that his identity will cause far more turmoil for Jon than merely learning he has a connection to House Stark... which after all... he already knew.

And attractions to Arya or Sansa must be put aside, BC, as they do not exist.

For sure it wouldn't be very foreshadowed. Lots of head scratching as to why Jon looks like Arya that looks like Lyanna but hey if Gary Busey and Nick Nolte aren't related anything is possible!

Agree its not likely. Would be a savage twist though.

LOL @ Busey and Nolte!

I have a feeling whatever GRRM has hidden up his sleeve is already in plain view. As obvious, and maybe even as intrusive, as Patchface and his annoying, seemingly out of place, jingles. Like when he sang “Fool’s blood, king’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom...” just before the Red Wedding.

The truth will seem obvious after the fact, but until then, it will sound like crackpottery.

Whilst I agree, I'd also say that this very argument of itself undermines the R+L=Jon Targaryen theory insofar as Jon is already working towards all this as we speak, he doesn't need to learn that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen to wind him up and set him going. He's Jon Snow,

This same reasoning can be used against your point though:

"Whilst I agree, I'd also say that this very argument of itself undermines the ??+L=Jon "the Son of Winterfell" theory insofar as Jon is already a son of Winterfell as we speak, he doesn't need to learn that he is the son of Lyanna Stark to wind him up and set him going. He's Jon Snow of Winterfell"

I don't think anyone is suggesting Jon needs Rhaegar, or the Targaryen name, to become a hero (or in your scenario, a Lord of Winterfell). Rather, the point is that if Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar, that carries some weight and has some bearing on Jon's arc. The same is true of the other candidates, particularly Arthur Dayne. If his father is Benjen, that is also earth-shattering (Wall shattering? :devil: ). If his father is Howland, it's swamp-shattering... LOL

[Black Crow]

At the end of the day my feeling is that Jon Snow is Jon Snow rather than the son of [ ] and he will fulfill his own destiny rather than that of his father.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

BC, I also think that the lower levels of the Winterfell crypts are originally natural caverns/caves. And yes, Voice, they may contain weirwood roots. On a probability scale of 1 to 10 my guess is, most likely. But a theory isn't fact, so I'll stick with may. ;) :)

I think the Last Hero found refuge at the current location of Nightfort and the Wall. Caverns, and tunnels and underground water, a magic weirwood gate, tales of Others and sacrifices etc. What help he reieced :dunno:. The LH may have been a woman, for all we know. Hmmmmm.

[wolfmaid7]

GRRM definitely enjoys toying with choices and identity, but we have no evidence that there have ever been successive Night's Kings.

But wouldn't it be a great twist if he wasn't a son of Winterfell? If we're thinking in terms of "George doesn't do obvious," it doesn't seem all that unlikely.

And if he is a son of Winterfell, Lyanna isn't really necessary to make that happen for Jon. And really, now that I think about it, Lyanna doesn't really offer anything of great consequence. At least nothing that Ned doesn't already provide...

I disagree ofcourse i think there is overwhelming evidence for this being the case.I can say i'm 100% sure,as sure as i am that the term "Ancient Others" is a kind of oxymoron :cool4:

As to the whole buisness of Jon being a son of Winterfell.....well he is. I mean by him being Lyanna's son he's a son of Winterfell. In fact if we look at how magical bloodlines work he is the only son of Winterfell because he is a product of the Matriarchial line.So to say Lyanna doesn't offer anything is incorrect,as i said and i think there is overwhelming evidence that GRRM has set up the matriarchial line to be the magical one in this series(true to myth).

Every heebie Jeebie even in the Targ line has a magical matriarchial line grafted in.

@ Black Crow: I agree,to a point at the end of the day the trajectory Jon is on indicates that his choices maybe a mixture of his own struggles but a lot to do with Ned's upbringing.He is who shaped most of Jon's upbringing.He was the one at the end of the day who was there.He is the seed that was strong.

[wolfmaid7]

Tripple post

[Voice]

At the end of the day my feeling is that Jon Snow is Jon Snow rather than the son of [ ] and he will fulfill his own destiny rather than that of his father.

Well yeah, because his father was Ned.

I'm not saying he will have a new destiny once learning who his parents are, but I am saying both parents will have an effect on how he sees himself and his role in life. Learning who his mother is will be hugely significant. But I think you err to suggest it will not be deeply significant to Jon if/when he learns his father is not Lord Eddard of House Stark, but some other Lord or Prince. That's a big deal BC.

And, it paints Jon in a much different light in terms of the Song, and whatever magical purposes he might serve. Again, no one is saying his Starkness isn't the key ingredient. It is. But, if his father is a Dayne, that's huge. Jon will be the Sword of the Morning, and could well be the First Man of Stark blood to wield the original Ice since Night's King, Bran the Builder, the Last Hero, or some other ancient Stark.

If his father is Rhaegar, that's huge. Suddenly, Jon has Fire blood and Ice blood. Jon could be the prince that was promised (which clearly seems to be a magical title, rather than a political one), and bear the Song of Ice and Fire.

If his father is Howland or Benjen, it's less huge, but still very intriguing. Benjen as a father would make Jon the son of a Son of Winterfell, and suddenly open up an entire realm of possiblity as to who his significant Mother might be.

And Howland would paint him Green. He'd be the Green Man on the Wall armored in black ice with a burning sword and a weirwood colored wolf. He'd be the Flavor Flav of Old Gods stereotypes LOL

[Voice]

BC, I also think that the lower levels of the Winterfell crypts are originally natural caverns/caves. And yes, Voice, they may contain weirwood roots. On a probability scale of 1 to 10 my guess is, most likely. But a theory isn't fact, so I'll stick with may. ;) :)

I think the Last Hero found refuge at the current location of Nightfort and the Wall. Caverns, and tunnels and underground water, a magic weirwood gate, tales of Others and sacrifices etc. What help he reieced :dunno:. The LH may have been a woman, for all we know. Hmmmmm.

:cheers: I can respect that. And I like the idea of the Nightfort location as well. It makes sense for the Last Hero to start work at the place he learned to do the work, and for the Wall itself to be the fruits of his labor. But a Gate is not a heart tree, and a tunnel is not a cave.

I'm not set in stone on this issue, but do prefer the crypts for LH's destination. In any case, I'm glad to see discussion come back to a topic I find more interesting than Jon's parentage ;)

I disagree ofcourse i think there is overwhelming evidence for this being the case.I can say i'm 100% sure,as sure as i am that the term "Ancient Others" is a kind of oxymoron :cool4:

As to the whole buisness of Jon being a son of Winterfell.....well he is. I mean by him being Lyanna's son he's a son of Winterfell. In fact if we look at how magical bloodlines work he is the only son of Winterfell because he is a product of the Matriarchial line.So to say Lyanna doesn't offer anything is incorrect,as i said and i think there is overwhelming evidence that GRRM has set up the matriarchial line to be the magical one in this series(true to myth).

Every heebie Jeebie even in the Targ line has a magical matriarchial line grafted in.

@ Black Crow: I agree,to a point at the end of the day the trajectory Jon is on indicates that his choices maybe a mixture of his own struggles but a lot to do with Ned's upbringing.He is who shaped most of Jon's upbringing.He was the one at the end of the day who was there.He is the seed that was strong.

I'm not saying Lyanna offers Jon nothing, only that she doesn't really change his status as a Son of Winterfell in any way. He already is one...

[Black Crow]

I'm not saying Lyanna offers Jon nothing, only that she doesn't really change his status as a Son of Winterfell in any way. He already is one...

That's rather the point we're making. He is a son or Winterfell and no matter the angst accompanying the realisation that his biological father wasn't Eddard Stark he is still going to be a son of Winterfell, not a son of Valyria.

[Black Crow]

And with that, after an unusually slow iteration of the thread I think its time to close this one [but not the argument] down and move of to Heresy 167.

See you all over there