Heresy 166

[Black Crow]

Errr...surely, by the time he was marching on the Trident, he had to be aware that the usurpers faction (or his own father) were accusing him of abducting Lyanna Stark. Perhaps he didn't know before then, but he must have known before his death, and you would think he'd try to defend himself.

I dare say that there may have been recriminations on Aerys' part along the lines of look at the mess you've gotten us into, and I'd rather suspect that the naming of Viserys as the Targaryen heir as soon as Rhaegar popped his clogs had been long meditated as a result, but nowhere at any point or by any character is there the slightest hint that Rhaegar was framed, but rather that whatever his true motives he was reckless of the consequences. As we used to say in the army its a question of mind over matter: I don't mind and you don't matter.

Twas ever thus with princes

[Voice]

Really, really really really? :cool4:

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge

LOL I don't see you joke often BC. It's nice :)

As to the first threat. We saw the root of the enmity in RR. Saw it grow into the Wot5k. And now, it plays out with plots and counterplots from LF and Sansa. Elsewise, not much there. After all, it isn't the greatest threat B)

:agree:

:cheers: he gets a bad rap.

So 165 isn't gone yet...

We've a new king! May his reign be long.

I fear I have to continue to disagree but look forward to seeing the various responses on the diverse collections of threads on which you've posted this essay.

LMAO! You're funny today BC!

[JNR]

As to the first threat. We saw the root of the enmity in RR. Saw it grow into the Wot5k. And now, it plays out with plots and counterplots from LF and Sansa. Elsewise, not much there. After all, it isn't the greatest threat B)

:agree: and in any case, I think 2015 > 1993. GRRM's ideas from 1993 are not necessarily those in his head today.

[Voice]

:agree: and in any case, I think 2015 > 1993. GRRM's ideas from 1993 are not necessarily those in his head today.

:cheers:

[Old Ida]

:agree: and in any case, I think 2015 > 1993. GRRM's ideas from 1993 are not necessarily those in his head today.

I am sure you are not as old as I am and GRRM. When we (the old ones ;)) get something in our tooth we do not let is go so glad. He may chance a little but he will go the road he set his mind up on in the start. He had to let go of the 5 year´s gap and IMO he will just stick to the narrative he started with. We do not know how the Stark/Lanister started. But something must lie behind the hatred/disgust Ned show the Lanister´s at the beginning - he talk about Cersei as "that woman" and he is revolting over Jamie becoming the Warden of the East as Tyvin is the Warden of the West.

I think (ofc. I do not know) that GRRM started with some ill will between the famelyes and he still has it up in his sleeve.

(I still beg pardon for my English)

[Black Crow]

Agreed. 1993 was indeed a long time ago but it was then he wrote AGoT and about the abduction of Lyanna. Whilst I would agree that his ideas on the story have modified over the years we're not in a situation where he sketched out the story back then and only sat down to write it now. The Lannister feud began the story and killed Lord Eddard before AGoT was done. We know right from the beginning that the Starks hate and fear the Lannisters but why do the Lannisters hate and fear the Starks - so much?

[Voice]

Agreed. 1993 was indeed a long time ago but it was then he wrote AGoT and about the abduction of Lyanna. Whilst I would agree that his ideas on the story have modified over the years we're not in a situation where he sketched out the story back then and only sat down to write it now. The Lannister feud began the story and killed Lord Eddard before AGoT was done. We know right from the beginning that the Starks hate and fear the Lannisters but why do the Lannisters hate and fear the Starks - so much?

Cats and Dogs. Tale as old as time.

But, I think it's mainly due to the culture gap. Starks are northmen, modest, and live modestly. Lannisters are not, southron, and live on a mountain of gold. Lannisters buy their honor. Starks remember theirs.

[Matthew.]

We know right from the beginning that the Starks hate and fear the Lannisters but why do the Lannisters hate and fear the Starks - so much?

I've asked this previously, and I'll ask again: do the Lannisters hate and fear the Starks that much? There's little indication that, before his abduction, Tyrion had any built-in negative feelings for the Starks. We know that Jaime resents Eddard looking down on him, but that's obviously linked to a very specific event between the two. Cersei is reacting to perceived threats to her family--which is entirely correct, the path Ned was pursuing would have put her and her children in danger. Tywin isn't relieved at Ned's death, he's annoyed that it has destroyed any hope he has of mending fences with the Starks so he can focus on the Baratheons.

I'm not seeing some deeply ingrained Lannister resentment for the Starks, I'm seeing House Lannister responding to a bunch of circumstances that Littlefinger is helping to create. If there's anyone in the midst of this that has a serious long-term grievance, it's Ned.

[wolfmaid7]

I think we have to look at it a bit individually. Interms of the synopisis,Tyrion is disenchanted with his family instead of a rivalry with Jon Snow there's a friendship and while its a bit early to tell seeing as he may have a connection with Dany right now;there maybe a reunion with him and Jon Snow at some point.

Arya has atlease one Lannister on her list and Sansa may be used to somehow undermine Cersie going forward.Jon has vowed to see them all dead before this is all over,Cersie wanted him dead as he could have claimed blood vengence for Ned.Up until AFFC she was still bitching about what the Stark girl cost her and she has also superimposed that grief on another Stark Maiden.Cersie will lose her draws over Sansa.

I don't think looking at each family as one against the other is going to work,as individuals that will be best.

[Voice]

I've asked this previously, and I'll ask again: do the Lannisters hate and fear the Starks that much? There's little indication that, before his abduction, Tyrion had any built-in negative feelings for the Starks. We know that Jaime resents Eddard looking down on him, but that's obviously linked to a very specific event between the two. Cersei is reacting to perceived threats to her family--which is entirely correct, the path Ned was pursuing would have put her and her children in danger. Tywin isn't relieved at Ned's death, he's annoyed that it has destroyed any hope he has of mending fences with the Starks so he can focus on the Baratheons.

I'm not seeing some deeply ingrained Lannister resentment for the Starks, I'm seeing House Lannister responding to a bunch of circumstances that Littlefinger is helping to create. If there's anyone in the midst of this that has a serious long-term grievance, it's Ned.

Tywin and Tyrion also both agreed that a Stark marriage would be good for their family, to bind their Houses together. Once twincest was known, and once Sansa realized Joff was cruel, the Starks no longer found such an arrangement favorable, but the Lannisters did.

[Melifeather]

Everything we have, including the World Book which is pretty specific about the time and place tells us it was Rhaegar and his gang whodunnit. There's never the slightest doubt on that or the smallest hint it was otherwise. What we do lack is any solid evidence as to what happened next and where they all went, hence the suggestion that there may have been some Lannister involvement - though not necessarily extending to her being held at Casterley Rock.

What really bothers me about the World Book and lately the wiki is how they present certain details like the Rhaegar/Lyanna kidnapping and Tower of Joy story. Elio and Linda say as far as they're concerned it's no longer a theory., and the information is presented with that bias. The story hasn't progressed far enough or confirmed any of it yet, but it's treated as if it is.

[Black Crow]

Not quite. The World Book stuff about the downfall of the Targaryens was very definitely written by GRRM himself without any outside input and unambiguously fingers Rhaegar and his gang for abducting Lyanna "not ten leagues" [30 miles] from Harrenhal, early in the new year.

So far as the tower of joy is concerned, I understand that Ran does indeed adhere to the R+L=J theory [with variations] but unlike some others has not to my knowledge been so bold as to declare that its no longer a theory.

[Black Crow]

I'm not seeing some deeply ingrained Lannister resentment for the Starks, I'm seeing House Lannister responding to a bunch of circumstances that Littlefinger is helping to create. If there's anyone in the midst of this that has a serious long-term grievance, it's Ned.

I don't see "resentment" either, but there is a deadly rivalry on the Lannisters' part; notwithstanding Lord Eddard staying up North the Starks are seen as a threat to be neutralised whether by death or by marriage.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think we have to look at it a bit individually. Interms of the synopisis,Tyrion is disenchanted with his family instead of a rivalry with Jon Snow there's a friendship and while its a bit early to tell seeing as he may have a connection with Dany right now;there maybe a reunion with him and Jon Snow at some point.

Arya has atlease one Lannister on her list and Sansa may be used to somehow undermine Cersie going forward.Jon has vowed to see them all dead before this is all over,Cersie wanted him dead as he could have claimed blood vengence for Ned.Up until AFFC she was still bitching about what the Stark girl cost her and she has also superimposed that grief on another Stark Maiden.Cersie will lose her draws over Sansa.

I don't think looking at each family as one against the other is going to work,as individuals that will be best.

I agree. We can take each piece of the synopsis and hold it up to the current story and see what is still there for individual characters and ideas. Much of the synopsis is still there in altered form, e.g. Cersei accomplishing some of what is claimed for Jaime.

Also, the story isn't finished so there is still time to see some of these things mentioned in 1993 to coalesce, and I love it when a plan comes together. :smoking:

[JNR]

I am sure you are not as old as I am and GRRM. When we (the old ones ;)) get something in our tooth we do not let is go so glad. He may chance a little but he will go the road he set his mind up on in the start. He had to let go of the 5 year´s gap and IMO he will just stick to the narrative he started with. We do not know how the Stark/Lanister started. But something must lie behind the hatred/disgust Ned show the Lanister´s at the beginning

Certainly. The Lannisters contributed next to nothing during the Rebellion as the North bled and died en masse. Tywin, to use his grandson's phrase, "hid under the Rock." Then when he finally took action, it involved

• Sacking King's Landing for no reason, leading to slaughter and rape on a huge scale

• In particuar, the needless brutal murder of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon (Ned thinks)

• The needless rape of Elia

And despite all of this, the Lannisters married their way into the Red Keep. They contributed next to nothing to the war from which they profited the most, while doing horrifying damage to innocents for no very good reason. That's plenty of reason for Stark/Lannister enmity, if you ask me.

So far as the tower of joy is concerned, I understand that Ran does indeed adhere to the R+L=J theory [with variations] but unlike some others has not to my knowledge been so bold as to declare that its no longer a theory.

Yes, he has. He said exactly that in his Reddit AMA:

Favorite theories: R+L=J is the obvious one. It's not really a theory in our minds, we're that confident in it.

I have to chuckle at this sort of thing. We're only a matter of months from the RLJ Doom, and statements like that, especially if they're as recent as that one, are going to come back and bite their authors savagely, right where it will do the most harm.

[Black Crow]

I agree. We can take each piece of the synopsis and hold it up to the current story and see what is still there for individual characters and ideas. Much of the synopsis is still there in altered form, e.g. Cersei accomplishing some of what is claimed for Jaime.

Also, the story isn't finished so there is still time to see some of these things mentioned in 1993 to coalesce, and I love it when a plan comes together. :smoking:

Agreed likewise. The story has changed and is probably still changing, but the vision is still there. In a sense its rather like the show with different characters taking on roles originally assigned to others as it develops. Its Cersei rather than Jaime Lannister who is the villain and as we've discussed there's a lively possibility that Sansa may change places with Arya in becoming close to Jon, but if we make allowances for this and the ways in which the story has blossomed, the core vision is still there and while there may have been unexpected twists and turns in the road, dead ends and periods in the wilderness I think that GRRM is still working steadily towards the ending he originally envisaged, and that the synopsis, with all due care still provides the best guide to where we're going.

[Black Crow]

Yes, he has. He said exactly that in his Reddit AMA:

I have to chuckle at this sort of thing. We're only a matter of months from the RLJ Doom, and statements like that, especially if they're as recent as that one, are going to come back and bite their authors savagely, right where it will do the most harm.

?

[JNR]

?

Conceive of how the various RLJ doubters are going to respond the day WoW hits the streets and it becomes apparent (if it does) that Jon's parents are not Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Having been shouted down for years, we are going to have quite a lot to say as the proudest theory in the world of F/SF is shattered and destroyed.

And the bulk of it will be directed at the most arrogant and obnoxious of the RLJers, who made indefensible claims like "it's not even a theory," "it's unwritten canon," "it's 100% probable."

These are some of the same folks who, curiously, and in flat denial of their 100% confidence level, would never take bets on this subject... though they would take bets with other posters, on other subjects, even in extreme amounts like $10K per bet. Let's be kind and call it fiscal hypocrisy.

You see, they're confident enough to condescend to the rest of the board, but not confident enough to wager a penny.

[Black Crow]

Well, lets just wait and see, because notwithstanding my recent interest in the alternative theory that Jon's father may turn out to be Ser Arthur Dayne rather than Rhaegar Targaryen, I fear that the real problem with the R+L=J theory is not that it is or may be wrong, but that it has assumed an importance out of all proportion to its actual significance. I'm comfortable with R+L=J turning out to be true. I just think that in either event what is going to be important is that Jon is the son of Lyanna Stark, and I'm still mindful of the only significance attaching to it in the synopsis is meaning that he can get inside Arya's knickers - or will it now be Sansa's?

[Arkash]

and I'm still mindful of the only significance attaching to it in the synopsis is meaning that he can get inside Arya's knickers - or will it now be Sansa's?

Agree.

The theory has blown so much out of proportion... if Jon, as Rhaegar and Lyanna's song was important for the line of succession or other political moves, it could have become relevant at Robert's Death or at Joffrey's. But now, I dont think anyone will give a shite about it.

Although I've never thought it would have political implications, rather magical ones... "his is the song of Ice and Fire", what's that song ? What did Rhaegar uncover in these old tales that assured him he was to become a warrior and that the Prince would be born of his line ? What is the Prince significance to the Targaryens ? Another variant of the Azor Ahai legend that almost every civilization from Westeros to Yi Ti has in its culture ?

I think the story relevant point that will come out of R + L = J is that Jon is immune to Walker's touch and/or Dragonfire (I'm not saying "fire", here !) and that he may enter in direct communication with both races (long shot I know, but I still believe Jon will be our window into the Walker's culture, motives and civilization and somehow broke a deal with them or give them what they're coming for, whatever it is).