The Night's King's Possible Origins [Pitting All Hints Together]

[Dorian Martell]

Because there is nothing but a tale about the nights king means that any theory that has more that the tale is fan fic. It isn't bad but not really relevant to the story. The nights king won't be a solvable mystery, it is an enigma to add depth to a mysterious enemy

[Jak Scaletongue]

Daughter of a Barrow King, hmm. If Sansa Stark came into power, her nickname or monicker might be the "wolf queen." Daenerys, perhaps would be known as the "Dragon Queen/Mad Dragon Queen." What would a Barrow King's daughter's monicker be? I wouldn't think it so outrageous to believe "Corpse Queen" would be a great monicker for the daughter of a Barrow King.

Using your examples of Sansa and Dany, both with their respective sigils as their moniker ("wolf queen" "dragon queen"). I can think of a northern house with the sigil of a corpse - the Boltons. Everyone seems so focused on the Barrow Kings, but the Red Kings were the longest hold-outs against the King of Winter. They were the last to bend the knee to the Starks. And their sigil actually has a corpse on it. Just like you suggest Sansa and Dany may earn their moniker's from their sigil's, couldn't the "corpse queen" have earned hers from her sigil? And the pale skin and light eyes matches what we know about Bolton appearance. Though, we don't have a good descriptions of any Dustin's (the current Lady Dustin is a Ryswell by birth). Having a partial Stark family tree from TWOIAF also shows that while the Starks have married into a good number of Northern houses in the last few generations since Cregan Stark, there are no Boltons who appear to have been married into the Starks (neither Stark sons or daughters appear to have married any Boltons). Admittedly, it's not a complete family tree, and there are some children that we don't know what happened to, maybe they married a Bolton, who knows. To be fair, I don't see any Dustin's marrying into the Starks either (or vice versa). So, whether the "corpse queen" was a Dustin or a Bolton, it's possible that after the actions of the Night's King and his "corpse queen" the Starks and Dustin/Boltons have not directly married into each others houses to prevent such a thing from happening again.

Before anyone misconstrues my ideas here, I'm not set against the "corpse queen" being a Dustin, but it seems to me (and god knows I haven't read every inch of the forum) that everyone assumes that it must be a Dustin, because of the Barrow Kings, and the story of the Curse of the Barrow Kings. But being suspicious of the Maester's, and reading TWOIAF with Yandel's bias in mind I just thought to offer at least one alternative to the standard assumption. And my offered alternative is the Boltons with their sigil of a flayed man (a corpse). Again, I'm not dead set against one and gung-ho for the other - it's just nice to have options!

As I was typing the "Dustin/Bolton" above, a third alternative occurred to me - a daughter of a Dustin/Bolton marriage. But again, it's not a THEORY, it's an IDEA. As is everything else I've typed.

[Blazfemur]

I like the Corpse Queen/Lady Dustin, but he gets commended and made lord commander for not dying and walking around in the snow? Eh?

And the Corpse Queen looks like an Other, so how do you account for a Dustin with those characteristics?

Pale skin and blue eyes? People go off on the dreaminess of targaryen purples all the time. An albino with blue eyes is hard to believe? Im definitely not saying she's definitely albino and it explains pale skin, but Others are supposedly otherworldly beautiful. It certainly could be a comparison in reference to her beauty.

What are you basing any of this on exactly? because I read your OP and it literally read like you just took a few bits of text from the books and strung a story together based on nothing at all that relates to that text. i mean literally you just made a bunch of stuff up and called it a theory. That is not a theory that is fan fiction.

What do you use to back up your suppositions? what other aspects of the story or history or folklore are there which allude to what you have imagined? What hints are in the text, is there anything at all to base this on?

1. Never called this a theory

2. Never got to read yours

3. No one's ever attempted to put it all together before, I have

4. Still, never heard yours

5. Everything, including theory, is fan fiction until written down on paper and read

6. Still, havent read your suppositions

7. Folklore is all this part of the story is, all written records were destroyed on purpose, remember?

8. Where are your counter-arguments?

9. Where are your counter-facts?

10. What exactly is anything youve just said other than being questions in a row?

BONUS: Still, havent read anything youve put together?

[Blazfemur]

Because there is nothing but a tale about the nights king means that any theory that has more that the tale is fan fic. It isn't bad but not really relevant to the story. The nights king won't be a solvable mystery, it is an enigma to add depth to a mysterious enemy

Sadly, I dont think there will actually BE a set "what actually happened, how it happened" portion, this just makes sense and kinda follows the timeline of which siutations occurred. One aspect leads right into the other. And again Im NOT calling it a theory, but more of compilation of ideas, that COULD have resulted in how everything occurred. The title of the thread is "Possible" Origins

Using your examples of Sansa and Dany, both with their respective sigils as their moniker ("wolf queen" "dragon queen"). I can think of a northern house with the sigil of a corpse - the Boltons. Everyone seems so focused on the Barrow Kings, but the Red Kings were the longest hold-outs against the King of Winter. They were the last to bend the knee to the Starks. And their sigil actually has a corpse on it. Just like you suggest Sansa and Dany may earn their moniker's from their sigil's, couldn't the "corpse queen" have earned hers from her sigil? And the pale skin and light eyes matches what we know about Bolton appearance. Though, we don't have a good descriptions of any Dustin's (the current Lady Dustin is a Ryswell by birth). Having a partial Stark family tree from TWOIAF also shows that while the Starks have married into a good number of Northern houses in the last few generations since Cregan Stark, there are no Boltons who appear to have been married into the Starks (neither Stark sons or daughters appear to have married any Boltons). Admittedly, it's not a complete family tree, and there are some children that we don't know what happened to, maybe they married a Bolton, who knows. To be fair, I don't see any Dustin's marrying into the Starks either (or vice versa). So, whether the "corpse queen" was a Dustin or a Bolton, it's possible that after the actions of the Night's King and his "corpse queen" the Starks and Dustin/Boltons have not directly married into each others houses to prevent such a thing from happening again.

Before anyone misconstrues my ideas here, I'm not set against the "corpse queen" being a Dustin, but it seems to me (and god knows I haven't read every inch of the forum) that everyone assumes that it must be a Dustin, because of the Barrow Kings, and the story of the Curse of the Barrow Kings. But being suspicious of the Maester's, and reading TWOIAF with Yandel's bias in mind I just thought to offer at least one alternative to the standard assumption. And my offered alternative is the Boltons with their sigil of a flayed man (a corpse). Again, I'm not dead set against one and gung-ho for the other - it's just nice to have options!

As I was typing the "Dustin/Bolton" above, a third alternative occurred to me - a daughter of a Dustin/Bolton marriage. But again, it's not a THEORY, it's an IDEA. As is everything else I've typed.

The beauty of it all is that regardless of the queen's identity, the backstory could still have ended up the same way. Her being a Dustin, fits the Barrow King/Barrow King's daughter plotline BECAUSE they were known Dustin's, furthermore Barbrey Dustin's interest in the crypts with Theon COULD show a postshadowing of how it occurred, (A lady dustin, in love with a stark, that has a missing blade [ice, if it was in fact exiled with the night's king]). It made sense to me.

Exactly though, nothing is in theory. These are all ideas, because quite literally there isnt any written record of it all - the night's watch destroyed them.

[UnViserion]

Fun read!

Nice work

[Blazfemur]

Fun read!

Nice work

i thought so. everything is based on fact in the text, but with a LOT of holes because there are natural gaps in the actual story where they seem purposely omitted. this is just an attempt to plug those holes with idea.

this is HARDLY a theory, though

[Daendrew]

Really good catch on the corpse queen vs dragon queen.

In this article I explored why the talk about her taking his seed and soul is wrong.

Once finals are done, I have a really good post on how we are misdirected about the hammer of the waters. Basically he gives us the truth, but it is jumbled and under a different name.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Hey, I've attempted to put it all together before. I just didn't include the Dustins in my theory.

The Weirwoods Eyes and Dorian Martell, you have now been cited for misuse of the term fan-fiction. Go sit in a corner and think about what you've done.

Blaz, I like this overall but there's a missing element...what's the explanation for wiping out all records prior to our LC/NK? This theory works fine except for that. I can't see any reason for them ditching the records on the first 12 LCs with just what you've got. If there was something in the text of "oops we lost a bunch of annals in a fire" to cover it that would work but so far we don't have anything like that in the story.

Ice not being handed down actually does not present a problem for this idea at all. In fact this would be a decent explanation for how the original Ice ended up "lost." Like one day a KITN was walking around scratching his head and asking everyone "Where did I leave that darn greatsword?"

[Coxy]

I see it more in line with the stories we've been told. I think that the 13th LC fell in love with a sorceress who convinced him he was part of a very convincing prophecy to become ruler. He took the name the Night's King and assumed to rule from his seat of power. The parallels here for me are with Stannis. I think Old Nan called everyone Bran in her stories because in time you will see that the current Bran sees these events through his own eyes. He feels what they felt, in the same way he tasted blood in his mouth when he had a vision of the sacrifice at the weirwood tree.

[The Tower of Almond Joy]

This was a fantastic read!

Blazfemur - I was about to go to bed, but I wanted to look at your post first. It was so good, I couldn't put it down. I loved how you presented your ideas. The way you wrote it made it easy to read. You have a link about Blood Raven. Do you have any more topics that you wrote? If so, could you post the links?

ps - Great job on your signature!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I see it more in line with the stories we've been told. I think that the 13th LC fell in love with a sorceress who convinced him he was part of a very convincing prophecy to become ruler. He took the name the Night's King and assumed to rule from his seat of power. The parallels here for me are with Stannis. I think Old Nan called everyone Bran in her stories because in time you will see that the current Bran sees these events through his own eyes. He feels what they felt, in the same way he tasted blood in his mouth when he had a vision of the sacrifice at the weirwood tree.

Do remember that Old Nan never said that Night's King was named Bran. Just that he could have been. The only thing she was sure on was that he was a Stark. He could have been named Bartleby for all we, or they, know.

[Blazfemur]

This was a fantastic read!

Blazfemur - I was about to go to bed, but I wanted to look at your post first. It was so good, I couldn't put it down. I loved how you presented your ideas. The way you wrote it made it easy to read. You have a link about Blood Raven. Do you have any more topics that you wrote? If so, could you post the links?

ps - Great job on your signature!

 

ah, thank you kindly. so much hate, its good to see some support :)

 

 

Do remember that Old Nan never said that Night's King was named Bran.  Just that he could have been.  The only thing she was sure on was that he was a Stark.  He could have been named Bartleby for all we, or they, know.

 

His brother technically is Brandon The Breaker, who united with Joramun. I.E., The Night's King couldnt have been Brandon (X2 Brandon's at the same time??)

 

It fits the story he was a Stark. And "Her" being a Dustin would explain the Lady Dustin of today's curiousity within the crypts, not to mention the blatant post-shadowing in theons chapter where they descend the tombs (A Lady Dustin, falling for a Brandon Stark, and a sword that was lost amongst them)

[Ser Naufragus]

I wonder if a lot of these tales are a lot like the songs and stories Sansa likes. Knights and Princesses. But they have been "modernized" and have kingsguard and what not but the actual stories date to the first men and andals.

So rather than happening after the first night, this was happening around the same time and elements such as the NW where added later.

Regardless, I just think its odd to have "others" being active after they were supposed to be defeated.

Now the corpse queen was really pale - so I propose that she was an albino like BR and Mel and Ghost. Albinos seem to be connected to magic in our story and the corpse queen was said to be a soceress

It should also be noted that barrow of the First King, who supposedly was a Dustin, was cursed and pretenders to the title would grow corpse-like. So there is a lot of corpse imagery with the Barrows and Dustins.

It also interesting that the Dustins just didn't consider themselves petty kings of a region but kings of ALL the first men.



The last Barrow king bent the knee and gave his daughter to the Stark

[Blazfemur]

The last Barrow king bent the knee and gave his daughter to the Stark

 

And THAT, my friend, is who I think the "Corpse Queen" is. A living, pale woman, who earned the monicker for being the daughter of a barrow king. if this crackpot propaganda is at all accurate, it would mean young Stark slept with her BEFORE taking his vows, and THEN was sent to the wall as punishemtn (surely a brother wouldnt slay his own brother and be named a cursed kinslayer).

 

It would validate Lady Dustin's journey with theon to the crypts and, if the north remembers truly, theyd hate the starks if dustin/tnk were in love and were separated. They remember, despite records being destroyed by the watch.

 

It's not a popular view, im ALL too well aware, but it combines little hints here and there, uses lore, and fills plotholes. Admittedly, all these sequences have to occur in this particular timeline. Very, very fragile.

 

Thank you for some input though. Essentially, making corpse queen monicker, and her human, validates NO female Others, and how TNK never broke a vow and was villainized. Also why his name was struck, to preserve the goodstanding Stark name by Brandon the breaker's request

[Blazfemur]

im curious, if one of Brandon The Breaker and Lady Dustin's children was a bastard (and male), but the tree doesnt go that far back.

[Ser Naufragus]

Ok but what if the curse was REAL! Would you not say the others are corpse like? Maybe someone was a pretender to First Kings crown and that's what created the others in the first place.

[Blazfemur]

Ok but what if the curse was REAL! Would you not say the others are corpse like? Maybe someone was a pretender to First Kings crown and that's what created the others in the first place.

im aware of the curse, and i think there was a story bran told the crew that there was a king sheritt that was the one that proclaimed it. if it's a curse, it's a curse that originated in the heart of winter, id think.

 

kind of like a "selling your soul, for the preservation of the race" sort of thing. the first men that journeyed north and became the first others, according to fomas, were destitute, cold, hungry, and weak. they returned as Other, no need for food, immune to the cold and with prolonged life. while its impossible to fathom what transpired at this point, i did my best to put together things of His particular timeline.

[Lady Barbrey]

The Dustins have been intriguing me for ages. Their connections to the dead, the Barrows, their stature as the last Kings of the First Men.

It did make me wonder whether the last King of the First Men was also the primary priest of the old Gods - a human greenseer. Lots of kings in the past combined the two functions.

The description of Bloodraven all pierced through with roots, pale, corpse-like. "The Barrow King's curse has come upon me, alas!". Is it not kingship he's presuming to take but the greenseeing -god that goes with it?

And only humans of that original King's line can do it without wasting away from the curse? Yay for Bran if so. The Dustin lineage from that very King's daughter should make him immune.

Those were just some thoughts from reading your post. I like the corpse-queen thing too. The bit I'm not keen on is the younger brother but perhaps Im not understanding your reasoning. Why a younger brother again? And was there an original Ice that I don't remember reading about aside from the Valyrian steel one?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The Dustins have been intriguing me for ages. Their connections to the dead, the Barrows, their stature as the last Kings of the First Men.

It did make me wonder whether the last King of the First Men was also the primary priest of the old Gods - a human greenseer. Lots of kings in the past combined the two functions.

The description of Bloodraven all pierced through with roots, pale, corpse-like. "The Barrow King's curse has come upon me, alas!". Is it not kingship he's presuming to take but the greenseeing -god that goes with it?

And only humans of that original King's line can do it without wasting away from the curse? Yay for Bran if so. The Dustin lineage from that very King's daughter should make him immune.

Those were just some thoughts from reading your post. I like the corpse-queen thing too. The bit I'm not keen on is the younger brother but perhaps Im not understanding your reasoning. Why a younger brother again? And was there an original Ice that I don't remember reading about aside from the Valyrian steel one?

There's a line in one of Cat's POV chapters (in AGoT I think) about how Ned's VS sword was named after the Stark ancestral sword which was lost at some point.  So yes, there is an original Ice.  Something like "the sword was 400 years old, the name older still..."  Let me just look it up, as I have the book on my desk...

 

[quote]It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers.  Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

 

 

 

<snip

 

His brother technically is Brandon The Breaker, who united with Joramun. I.E., The Night's King couldnt have been Brandon (X2 Brandon's at the same time??)

 

<snip

Um, that's what I was saying.  That Nan never said that Night's King WAS named Bran, only that he could have been.  Countering the assertion that Old Nan's statements in any way contradict your theory.