[Book Spoilers] EP504 Discussion

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

In the circumstances they found themselves, they'd probably lose as often as they won. Historically, the way to beat an army so armed was to break up the formation, attack from multiple angles and isolate individual soldiers or small groups of soldiers. This is why the phalanx style of warfare fell out of favor.

I don't know if the show was aiming for historical accuracy in that depiction, but a small unit of spear infantry, in close quarters, outnumbered and surrounded was in serious trouble.

That would be OK, if not for the fact that the Unsullied didn't even give the formation a chance. There was no need to break it, it dissolved on its own within a blink of an eye. And if you put a phalanx-like unit in a Thermopylae-like setup, you need to let them kick some major ass before killing 'em all.

[bb1180]

That would be OK, if not for the fact that the Unsullied didn't even give the formation a chance. There was no need to break it, it dissolved on its own within a blink of an eye. And if you put a phalanx-like unit in a Thermopylae-like setup, you need to let them kick some major ass before killing 'em all.

They didn't have the men to deploy a phalanx, anyway (a proper phalanx generally being 8 men deep, as wide as the number of men will allow, with the reach of the spears allowing the first four ranks of men to fight behind the interlocked shields up front) . If we're assuming accuracy here, they were dead meat, because phalanx tactics require a large number of men. They were limited to small unit tactics with a weapon poorly suited to it.

Edited May 4, 2015 by bb1180

[dieseldda]

Predictions for the next few episodes -

Tyrion and Jorah will take the short cut through the smoking sea, get attacked by the stonemen of Valyria Stannis alluded to.

Jon will get a reply back from Winterfell insulting him. In response, Jon will tell Stannis about the hill clans, possible bad blood between the Boltons and the Umbers. Team Stannis will make his way to Last Hearth, hear about Rickon. Davos gets sent to find him. Mel voluntarily heads back to the wall.

Bronn will mention to Jaime that Cersei had been banging Lancel.

Littlefinger and Olenna will scheme to have Cersei arrested. "Knowledge is power."

Tommen will continue to be brilliantly framed on the screen as a 12 year old. Will send for Kevan as soon as Cersei gets taken.

Without the calming presence of Barristan, Danaerys will do even more stupid shit.

Sansa will eventually find out from Reek that her brothers aren't dead.

The sand snakes will continue to look cartoonish, will capture Myrcella before Jaime gets there. Jaime and Bronn will find and confront the Sands, but Doran and friends show up before Jaime gets killed, has Ellaria and the snakes imprisoned.

Wouldn't be surprised if most don't happen, but that's how I see things playing out, in the most general of terms.

[grufolo]

The Sand Snakes seemed some kind of Tarantino style 60s vixens.

Terrifying (not in a good way)

:(

[Itchyscratch]

I thought when Jaime said "The next time I see him, I will split him in two" in this episode, it was bizarre. Well maybe that's because I'm a book reader but regardless, both on the show and in the books, I would believe that Jaime would understand WHY Tyrion did it, reason being he always copped shit from his dad, who himself wanted Tyrion dead ever since he was born! So I thought Jaime would have understood Tyrion's actions. I mean in the books Jaime isn't portrayed as, "I didn't tell him about Tysha, and now he kills father, I guess we're even' OR 'He killed father, I want him dead". So as I was reading, I had the impression that Jaime understood WHY he did it.

In the show, he also isn't portrayed of wanting to kill Tyrion UNTIL the very moment he said that, so it kind of came out of nowhere.... I mean like, he didn't express his anger earlier when with Cersei or anything..

The only explanation I can come up with is that it's another lie to Bronn by Jaime, who still doesn't trust him. He stuck to his lie about Myrcella being his niece, then lied about letting Tyrion escape, so perhaps this was Jaime trying to deflect Bronn's questioning yet again. If not, then it remains very strange.

[boojam]

Doesn't it seem like some of these arcs are being severely altered or eliminated, though?

It's a puzzle to have the show runners say that the story lands on the same spot as the prose story does, unless George changes it!

So we are moving towards territory where the show does not spoil the novels , which is interesting.

[Janicia]

I thought when Jaime said "The next time I see him, I will split him in two" in this episode, it was bizarre. Well maybe that's because I'm a book reader but regardless, both on the show and in the books, I would believe that Jaime would understand WHY Tyrion did it, reason being he always copped shit from his dad, who himself wanted Tyrion dead ever since he was born! So I thought Jaime would have understood Tyrion's actions. I mean in the books Jaime isn't portrayed as, "I didn't tell him about Tysha, and now he kills father, I guess we're even' OR 'He killed father, I want him dead". So as I was reading, I had the impression that Jaime understood WHY he did it.

In the show, he also isn't portrayed of wanting to kill Tyrion UNTIL the very moment he said that, so it kind of came out of nowhere.... I mean like, he didn't express his anger earlier when with Cersei or anything..

I don't think Jaime would actually try to murder Tyrion. He's venting his anger rather than stating an actual plan.

But it is reasonable for Jaime to be furious with Tyrion. Tywin was holding Westeros together-ish with the Lannister family on top by shear force of will. Already the Boltons, Littlefinger, and the Iron Bank are openly moving against the Lannisters as a result of Tywin's death. Tywin's death emboldens the Tyrells and Martells and gives Stannis momentum. Tommen, Cersei, and Jaime are by definition at the center of the Lannister family collapse - Tywin's untimely death points directly toward those three heads going up on spikes sooner rather than later. Tyrion basically signed a death warrant for Jaime's family, right after Jaime saved his life. And Tyrion separated Jaime from the woman he loves.

[lostinwesteros]

I was wondering about that look, but I'm not sure why Littlefinger would know anything about that; the alternative would be that what Sansa's saying is kind of an accusation at Littlefinger (he saw her at a tourney, kidnapped her, hasn't raped her yet), and he reacts on those terms.

I would like that scenario. It's seemed to me that there've been big gaps left in showing us what LF & Sansa's relationship is and how it's progressing. I'm waiting for the time LF 'gets his', and I hope it's at Sansa's hands (do it for Cat!), but I think he'll be playing the game of thrones for quite a while to come. And that kiss? I was distracted when it was shown and I'm waiting to watch the second showing of this episode. That's another :ack: for me. Lots of :ack: 's for me this episode, though I thought it was a pretty great episode.

[hallam]

Yes, highly trained, shielded, and spear armed soldiers will always lose to dagger yielding former slave masters.

Actually the books say that they are not much cop as security guards, they tend to get fat and lazy out of formation.

And the odds were at least ten to one,

Barristan forgot how to put on armor or how to be cautious in a city full of unrest, the sand snakes forgot how to act, and the unsullied forgot they have short swords...which is not that surprising as , with the exception of Grey Worm, they also forgot how to fight.

Have you ever worn armor? Even chain mail is a serious weight. That plate armor can only be worn for long periods on horseback.

On top of which, armor slows you down.

[Masha]

Predictions for the next few episodes -

Tyrion and Jorah will take the short cut through the smoking sea, get attacked by the stonemen of Valyria Stannis alluded to.

Jon will get a reply back from Winterfell insulting him. In response, Jon will tell Stannis about the hill clans, possible bad blood between the Boltons and the Umbers. Team Stannis will make his way to Last Hearth, hear about Rickon. Davos gets sent to find him. Mel voluntarily heads back to the wall.

Bronn will mention to Jaime that Cersei had been banging Lancel.

Littlefinger and Olenna will scheme to have Cersei arrested. "Knowledge is power."

Tommen will continue to be brilliantly framed on the screen as a 12 year old. Will send for Kevan as soon as Cersei gets taken.

Without the calming presence of Barristan, Danaerys will do even more stupid shit.

Sansa will eventually find out from Reek that her brothers aren't dead.

The sand snakes will continue to look cartoonish, will capture Myrcella before Jaime gets there. Jaime and Bronn will find and confront the Sands, but Doran and friends show up before Jaime gets killed, has Ellaria and the snakes imprisoned.

Wouldn't be surprised if most don't happen, but that's how I see things playing out, in the most general of terms.

Agree on all but I don't think Jorah and Tyrion will go thru Smoking sea, they will go thru the Sorrows - Bridge of Dreams - where Tyrion and Griff traveled. Sorrows is constantly covered in fog and there Tyrion saw a shape of large bird/bat flying - based on trailer, Tyrion sees a dragon thru the fog (not smoke)

I don't think Jaime would actually try to murder Tyrion. He's venting his anger rather than stating an actual plan.

But it is reasonable for Jaime to be furious with Tyrion. Tywin was holding Westeros together-ish with the Lannister family on top by shear force of will. Already the Boltons, Littlefinger, and the Iron Bank are openly moving against the Lannisters as a result of Tywin's death. Tywin's death emboldens the Tyrells and Martells and gives Stannis momentum. Tommen, Cersei, and Jaime are by definition at the center of the Lannister family collapse - Tywin's untimely death points directly toward those three heads going up on spikes sooner rather than later. Tyrion basically signed a death warrant for Jaime's family, right after Jaime saved his life. And Tyrion separated Jaime from the woman he loves.

Based on reviews, most reviewers (unsullied and what not) felt that Jaime's venting over Tyrion was half-hearted and defensive, like he felt he had to explain it to his sister though she was not even there and they commented that Bronn looks very skeptical over Jaime's claim.

So, its obvious even to unsullied that Jaime is not that murderously angry at Tyrion, just defensive

[Amber W]

Does anyone else think the focus on Shireen we're getting on the show doesn't bode well for her character? I have a long-standing theory that Melisandre will eventually sacrifice her to resurrect/heal Jon, and scenes like this one and last season's (Melisandre interacting with Shireen, and later deciding she should come to the wall) make me think I might be onto something :(

[Ser Creighton]

Well if they are killing off Selmy it must be to make way for Tyrion and the return of Jorah. Selmy knows Tyrion and would not let him near Dany, so Tyrion probably meets Dany under a fake name while Jorah is taken to the fighting pits. But that means Dany allows Hiz to start buying slaves, and appears to be allowing slaves in the fighting pits with Jorah.

[JonSnowed]

I really liked that episode and it's clear to me that D&D are moving towards the end game the only bit I thought was naff was the sand snakes which seemed so out of place and badly portrayed.

[Jon Martell]

That fighting scene between barristan and grey worm against the sons of the harpy was so disappointing. How can unsulied fully trained and with shields die so easy against normal rebels with knives ? Well done D&D.

[The Prince of Porne]

Doesn't the sudden bombardment with R+L=J foreshadowing really disprove the "No one would have known who Tysha was because she hadn't been mentioned in 3 seasons, durr" excuse? I'm pretty sure just about all non-book-readers had no idea who Rhaegar and Lyanna were, but a couple of 30-second reminder scenes took care of that.

[The Eunuch]

That fighting scene between barristan and grey worm against the sons of the harpy was so disappointing. How can unsulied fully trained and with shields die so easy against normal rebels with knives ? Well done D&D.

And how would you survive at 6 against 24?

And it's the same in the books, the Unsullied are butchered in the streets. Well done GRRM?

Doesn't the sudden bombardment with R+L=J foreshadowing really disprove the "No one would have known who Tysha was because she hadn't been mentioned in 3 seasons, durr" excuse? I'm pretty sure just about all non-book-readers had no idea who Rhaegar and Lyanna were, but a couple of 30-second reminder scenes took care of that.

No one cares about Tysha actually, she was not necessary to the story. It's a great detail in the books, showing how vicious Tywin was and giving more depth to Tyrion, but in the series there's no reason to add 300 details (especially when the viewers can't recognize all the 500 cast members - "Who is this again, the guy with the beard?"). Tyrion is at the exact same point as in the books, with or without Tysha. R+L=J is really important for the future.

Edited May 4, 2015 by The Eunuch

[lostinwesteros]

I’m pretty sure Cersei told Meryn Trant to make sure Mace has an accident in Bravos, and Arya is going to interrupt that. Which makes a certain amount of sense – Trant is going to have to get away from the rest of the escort in order to make his move on Mace; which in turn will make Trant vulnerable to Arya. I’m very curious if the show is committed to the repercussions of political assassination causing diplomatic fiasco in Bravos and will slot that into the story going forward, or if it will be downplayed.

Sand snakes didn’t really work for me. But it is hasty to judge them on one scene.

It was nice to see Tyrion being both clever and well-informed.

Seemed like Melissandre wanted to make a shadow baby, probably to kill Roose. And she definitely has thoughts on what to do with Shireen’s blood. :( I like the speculation upthread that Sam and Gilly abscond with Shireen. I hope they do! That would actually be a callback to Gilly’s plea to Sam and Jon in season 2, and again it would be Sam who focuses on rescuing the damsel while Jon is more focused on the bigger picture.

• Enjoyed the scene with Mace; always do. Could anyone be so naive and oblivious to Cerise's insults? Ya almost gotta love him, poor babe. I also enjoyed Pycelle's saying the small council was getting smaller and Cerise's "Not small enough". And lastly, with that scene, loved Qyburns little expressions as he kept silent on the sidelines - in themselves they spoke volumes.

Didn't like the sand snakes much, either. I guess the image of the sailor's head with manticores crawling all over it was meant to convey what badasses they are, but it fell short for me.

Yes, so glad "the real Tyrion" is back. I thought Jorah's doing a pretty good job of being a bit crazed in his single-mindedness.

So, that's what Melissandre was up to with Jon. Thought maybe the Shadowbaby trick would have an expiration date, but then I remember that when Stannis wanted another one after the BoB, she did tell him he was too weak. I love the idea that Sam and Gilly may abscond with Shireen, keeping her out of Mel's claws.

On other matters, I have to say I didn't like the way the show writers brought Jaime to the point of murderous intent with Tyrion. Given the joking they'd done together over their father, and given Tywin's disinheriting and ridicule of Jaime back in Season 3, I just couldn't quite buy that Tyrion's killing their father would have such a vehement effect on him. He did obviously feel guilt when standing guard over Tywin's body and Cersei guessed that he'd been the one to set Tyrion free, but still. While I'm on the Jaime arc (just realizing how this has been building for me), I hate the way he's been basically sucking up to Cersei when she's treated him so abominably since his return to KL without a hand and that he's allowing himself to be PW'd by her. It seemed a bit cowardly to me for Jaime to blatantly blame Varys for setting Tyrion free. I was glad to see him in thoughtful reflection upon viewing Tarth. Maybe there's hope yet for him to demonstrate integrity by refusing to return to KL for Cerise's trial by combat.

Ah, well, that's just me.

ETsavespace.

Edited May 4, 2015 by lostinwesteros

[The Prince of Porne]

No one cares about Tysha actually, she was not necessary to the story. It's a great detail in the books, showing how vicious Tywin was and giving more depth to Tyrion, but in the series there's no reason to add 300 details (especially when the viewers can't recognize all the 500 cast members - "Who is this again, the guy with the beard?"). Tyrion is at the exact same point as in the books, with or without Tysha. R+L=J is really important for the future.

Yeah, I'm not saying the two things are equal in importance to the plot (though I think removing Tysha robbed the Tyrion scenes in "The Children" of a lot of the punch they should have had... Would have loved to have seen his parting scene with Jaime as it was in the book, with him losing his shit and vowing revenge on his family) ...just that a lot of people were arguing that Tysha was left out because no one would remember who she was after so long, which is clearly untrue. If the showrunners felt it was important enough to bring back into the story, it would have been easy enough to jog people's memories.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

Tysha was necessary and I hated what Jaime said. Fuck I can't believe Selmy is dead wtf I thought he was just injured considering he's "saved" by Grey at the end. And with a bs dagger strike where's Selmys armor damn it he's a knight. Even without armor he killed Meros punk ass in the books wow I'm shocked! Loras gets punked out by a bunch of scrawny religious dudes okay but he had swords all around him....

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

On other matters, I have to say I didn't like the way the show writers brought Jaime to the point of murderous intent with Tyrion. Given the joking they'd done together over their father, and given Tywin's disinheriting and ridicule of Jaime back in Season 3, I just couldn't quite buy that Tyrion's killing their father would have such a vehement effect on him. He did obviously feel guilt when standing guard over Tywin's body and Cersei guessed that he'd been the one to set Tyrion free, but still. While I'm on the Jaime arc (just realizing how this has been building for me), I hate the way he's been basically sucking up to Cersei when she's treated him so abominably since his return to KL without a hand and that he's allowing himself to be PW'd by her. It seemed a bit cowardly to me for Jaime to blatantly blame Varys for setting Tyrion free. I was glad to see him in thoughtful reflection upon viewing Tarth. Maybe there's hope yet for him to demonstrate integrity by refusing to return to KL for Cerise's trial by combat.

My take on that scene is that Jaime is struggling to deal with the fact that he was actually somewhat responsible for his father's death (guilt) and trying to maintain the lie to Bronn that he had nothing to do with it. If he doesn't act outraged that Tyrion killed his father it lends credence to the fact that perhaps he did free him. I don't think you're supposed to take the thought of splitting Tyrion in two as a true, internal feeling but more so something he said to Bronn, which was easy enough to say since he probably does resent the fact that Tyrion could've just left KL without murdering Tywin.

Jaime doesn't really free himself of the Cersei-PW until he ignores her letter after finding out she was fucking Lancel/Kettleblack. I would expect Bronn to reveal that to him at some point and when Cersei gets in trouble, Jaime refuses to return to her. Basically I believe it will be the same, his characterization is pretty consistent with the books up until this point, even on his Riverrun trip he thinks about being with Cersei despite knowing she wasn't faithful to him.