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[Book Spoilers] EP504 Discussion

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So Ser Barristan could cut through 6 kings gaurd like carving a cake but 5 assassins with daggers and masks best him in broad day light??? Pretty weak!!

He said he could. Doesn't mean he actually could at his advanced age.

Tywin said in a previous episode that his name still has weight with the people. Not that he was still a great fighter.

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If you follow the leaks and a lot of the current plot lines, most of the characters will be exactly where they should be by the end of the 5th season (compared to ADWD). Different paths to get around the slowness that was books 4 and 5.



I have a feeling season 6 and book 6 will be much more similar, as the show writers probably already have access to most of it and they won't have to take as many short cuts.


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So Ser Barristan could cut through 6 kings gaurd like carving a cake but 5 assassins with daggers and masks best him in broad day light??? Pretty weak!!

what boggles my mind is that these sons of harpy have daggers in their hands and are able to kill so many unsullied who have armor, lances, short swords etc and are trained in killing.

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So does anyone have an idea as to why the writers decided to off Barristan? He plays such a crucial role (at least I thought so) when Dany flies away. I cannot figure out a reason. Maybe I am not imaginative enough. What I am hoping is that they didn't just kill him off for shits and giggles. I assume they want to shake things up to keep the book readers guessing, but isn't it enough that they will/are ahead of the source material?

So that Danny is left with no loyal advisors at all and needs Tyrion all the more.

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So that Danny is left with no loyal advisors at all and needs Tyrion all the more.

Absolutely. It certainly sets up Dany's need for Tyrion.

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So does anyone have an idea as to why the writers decided to off Barristan? He plays such a crucial role (at least I thought so) when Dany flies away. I cannot figure out a reason. Maybe I am not imaginative enough. What I am hoping is that they didn't just kill him off for shits and giggles. I assume they want to shake things up to keep the book readers guessing, but isn't it enough that they will/are ahead of the source material?

There are just too many characters. If they were to start over, Barristan might have been cut from the series entirely in favor of spending more time with Renly in season 1 and Jorah & Dario in seasons 3-5. But the reason to kill him off now is presumably that Tyrion and Jorah are going to arrive in Mereen this season and need something to do. And Dany has to lose control of Mereen in both a profoundly personal and convincingly large-scale way. Losing her last Westerosi advisor, the one who knew her family intimately, is a way to get Dany to that point.

My guess is that Barristan doesn't make it out of Mereen alive in the books, either. The eruption of chaos there probably will claim some character lives, and he's at the center of it, making enemies.

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This thread includes book spoilers.... So let me explain why Barristan Selmy had to die when he did. In the books (TWOW) Selmy is left behind in Meeren and encounters the Greyjoy Fleet. It is likely he doesn't survive this encounter.



So lets look at it from the shows perspective. The show doesn't have the Greyjoy Fleet going to Meeren. In fact, it is safe to assume Meeren will never be seen from in the show once Dany leaves it.



This leaves a smaller window for Selmy to die. He can either die in the pits or before it. If the show is going to kill off more characters in the pit, they can't overload the scene with Greyworm and Barristan Selmy also dying.



This explains why he died in the show much earlier.


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Well, without digging through this whole thread, I think the show gave some huge hints in support of R+L=J. The last episode, the Red Priestess who stared down Tryion seemed suggestive to me. Does all of this tend to support R+L=J and A+J=T and that D, T, J are the three heads of the dragon?


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Well, without digging through this whole thread, I think the show gave some huge hints in support of R+L=J. The last episode, the Red Priestess who stared down Tryion seemed suggestive to me. Does all of this tend to support R+L=J and A+J=T and that D, T, J are the three heads of the dragon?

This is the most logical conclusion. These are the central characters as far as I am concerned in both the books and the TV series. Time will tell.

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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This thread includes book spoilers.... So let me explain why Barristan Selmy had to die when he did. In the books (TWOW) Selmy is left behind in Meeren and encounters the Greyjoy Fleet. It is likely he doesn't survive this encounter.

So lets look at it from the shows perspective. The show doesn't have the Greyjoy Fleet going to Meeren. In fact, it is safe to assume Meeren will never be seen from in the show once Dany leaves it.

This leaves a smaller window for Selmy to die. He can either die in the pits or before it. If the show is going to kill off more characters in the pit, they can't overload the scene with Greyworm and Barristan Selmy also dying.

This explains why he died in the show much earlier.

Hmmmmm.... That's not how I read the TWOW chapter. It sounded like the Greyjoys were arriving to save Barristan's rag tag army. Yes, it is highly possible that he could die in that battle, but in the end of that chapter it sounded more like rescue was on the way, rather than demise. Just my opinion. (I could possibly be biased because I want so badly for Selmy to make it out alive)

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Well, without digging through this whole thread, I think the show gave some huge hints in support of R+L=J. The last episode, the Red Priestess who stared down Tryion seemed suggestive to me. Does all of this tend to support R+L=J and A+J=T and that D, T, J are the three heads of the dragon?

I think you're jumping to major conclusions with Tyrion. For one thing, the show has never suggested that any of Joanna Lannister's children aren't Tywin's. There has been absolutely no talk of the Mad King being interested in Joanna, and the father/son theme has been hammered home over and over with Tywin and Tyrion. The show also hasn't emphasized Tyrion's dragon obsession. If Tyrion being a Targaryan was going to be a plot point, there should have been some set up. And with a big Jon reveal to come, a big Tyrion reveal would probably feel over the top. GRRM is flirting with too many secret Targaryans in the books.

Further, Tyrion was at that moment making fun of the Red Priestess. The simple explanation for the stare was that she sensed that he was mocking her and she was not amused. Or she sensed that Tyrion was playing some kind of important role in the Dany saga, and that drew her attention. It is a long jump to go from "that guy is probably important in some way" to "that guy will ride a dragon".

Anyway, red priests are interested in all sorts of people, presumably for all sorts of reasons. Melissandre has a huge interest in Stannis, and has been interested in Arya, Shireen, Davos, Selyse, Gendry, Beric, ect. Thoros was interested in Beric, Arya, Robert, Sandor. In the books, Moquorro is interested in Victarion.

Finally, given that this is ASOIAF, I doubt that all three dragons make it out of Mereen. There are a lot of weapons in Mereen, and the dragons are a serious threat to the populace - surely somebody will shoot one down eventually. Anyway, I don't think GRRM wants to end this thing with another absolute monarchy backed by dragons. And not all of the prophecies in the story will be fulfilled - some will fail, or turn out to be misunderstandings.

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Finally, given that this is ASOIAF, I doubt that all three dragons make it out of Mereen. There are a lot of weapons in Mereen, and the dragons are a serious threat to the populace - surely somebody will shoot one down eventually. Anyway, I don't think GRRM wants to end this thing with another absolute monarchy backed by dragons. And not all of the prophecies in the story will be fulfilled - some will fail, or turn out to be misunderstandings.

They have a large stockpile of weapons to use on beasts that have not been seen for hundreds of years? It is not like your average archer can just knock an arrow and fell one of those humongous bastards.

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what boggles my mind is that these sons of harpy have daggers in their hands and are able to kill so many unsullied who have armor, lances, short swords etc and are trained in killing.

:agree:

Yeah, that fight scene made zero sense. The Unsullied fought in almost the exact opposite way to how the show has told us the Unsullied would fight.

According to many past episodes if there's one thing they're famous for, it's their coolness under pressure and their discipline. Not losing their heads and spreading out to give their opposition the advantage.

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What's Roose going to do when he gets the request from Jon Snow for people for the wall?


will he send assassins ?


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Finally Dany learns her father was mad and her brother was not a killing phsycopath

Edited by robasp2

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:agree:

Yeah, that fight scene made zero sense. The Unsullied fought in almost the exact opposite way to how the show has told us the Unsullied would fight.

According to many past episodes if there's one thing they're famous for, it's their coolness under pressure and their discipline. Not losing their heads and spreading out to give their opposition the advantage.

I think that the Unsullied perform better in formation out in the field. They don't perform well in tight areas. The sons of the harpy ambushed them in a tight area. They couldn't manoeuvre properly and were therefore exposed. That's my take on it. :dunno:

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I think that the Unsullied perform better in formation out in the field. They don't perform well in tight areas. The sons of the harpy ambushed them in a tight area. They couldn't manoeuvre properly and were therefore exposed. That's my take on it. :dunno:

See, the reason this doesn't fly for me is that the tactics of the spear and shield-equipped Unsullied are actually perfectly suited to fighting in the exact type of area in which they were fighting. Typical spear and shield fighters of that type stay close-ranked. They don't separate. The Unsullied have drilled over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over not to separate when stuff gets hairy. It's pretty much all they do.

If anything, especially being outnumbered, it helps out a lot to have a wall or two to cover a flank or two. Especially when most of the opposition is armed with piddly little daggers. For a group of soldiers who've studied and trained in nothing but combat tactics their entire lives they were woeful in that scene. It just doesn't just make no sense in terms of character, it makes negative sense.

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Funny how on a regular TV show Barristan would be back up walking around without a scratch a few episodes later but hits is GOT :(

Thank goodness this is Got and not ASOIAF. In the novels, that kind of apparent death at the end of a chapter always means that it's a fake-death -or that the character will be brought back to live in one way or another. :P

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