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[Book Spoilers] EP504 Discussion

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Little background: A sports radio guy in my area will do a 10 minute breakdown of the last episode; I had heard him teasing it for a few weeks but never bothered to listen or still be in the car to catch it. Heard it yesterday. And I think it is just about the best summation of the lowest common denominator audience members the show caters (panders?) to.

Few points:

  • Claim to not be a book reader but knows R+L=J theory; so is either reading a bit of the net or the show did a good job.
  • "Blood is good, talking is bad"
  • The first caller is amazing in his unsullied-ness.
  • The second caller claims to be a book reader, is cut off, but was giving poor info anyhow.

Lastly, really strikes home how amazing, crazy, dedicated, and informed folks on this forum are; and how much of a true minority we are.

Episode talks starts at the 35:00 mark and goes for roughly 9 minutes.

Without further ado I give you: Unsullied Radio http://media.957thegame.com/a/104826281/the-damon-bruce-show-5-7-15-hour-1.htm?

LOL I read the transcript and it's hilarious how all the names are distorted.

LMAO, that's hilarious. You seem to think that people actually care enough to pay attention beyond "Oh, that's cool". What, you think people love watching Dancing with the Stars because they know what the actual dances are? Of course not.Lots of people watch popular shows and don't pay a lot of attention to them. The show doesn't cater to the casual viewer AT ALL. Hell, it doesn't even cater to the attentive viewer. It caters to the viewer who will watch it several times. Why? Because there's no way in hell you are going to get everything going on in the show (or even know who every character in the show is) the first time through. How do I know this? Because I didn't read the books before watching the first two seasons. Guess what...I was pretty fucking lost for a while and I didn't catch a lot of stuff the first time through.Anyone who thinks that this show is 'dumbed down' has a skewed perception of what the medium is really capable of in the first place.

I read somewhere that there is a new trend around television shows, specifically dramas, in that they are designed to be re-watched multiple times because that is how people are consuming television now.

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Well all that you say proves what I am saying, that they want to dumb down the story but they don't know how to do that, so they end up with this mess that is confusing instead of simple. People reread books to discover new layers and not because they don't understand what the hell happened, but the show is so confusing that people need to rewatch it just to be able to follow it. Confusion is not the same as complexity at all.

Uh, it doesn't prove shit beyond the fact that people who aren't avid show watchers aren't going to remember all of the characters or get all of the plots. "Complexity isn't the same as confusing"...in this case, it is. Of course, how does that differ from the books? What would you say to someone who started reading the books and said "This is too confusing?" Because that's part of the reason a lot of people don't finish reading them. Now, imagine that you are reading the books and you have one hour to absorb everything that happens in 5-10 chapters. Do you honestly think you are going to catch everything? That's what it's like for show watchers. That's why second viewings are crucial.

But hey, if you want to insist that the show sucks, go right ahead. You're the one wasting time watching something you consider dumbed down.

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This whole storyline they are putting Sansa in strikes me as a misdirection by littlefinger. I think he is telling Roose Bolton one thing, Sansa another. I do not think he has had any contact with Stannis but knows that he cannot sit at the wall with Bolton in Winterfell. I think Littlefinger, since he has dealt with the Iron Bank for years, as master of coin, feels he could have them transfer their financial backing to him, he already will have a larger army if he gets the Vale to send a force with him to Winterfell, austensibly to fight off Stannis( I still am interested how he will explain to Lord Royce how the Boltons got Sansa anyway) but when inside Winterfell, probably to attend the Wedding, they will turn on the Boltons and attack them and then attempt to finish off Stannis, so that littlefinger will have the girl he wants for himself and two kingdoms under his control. However, Sansa will have some surprises of her own I am sure, I think she will not go back with him if she can help it. She should find out that Rickon is still alive and that should be her primary goal, get him or get to him. It will be several races against time in Sansa's storyline this year.

Great insight about Littlefinger emulating the Red Wedding. He would certainly have Sansa's support - explains "Avenge them" line.

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Uh, it doesn't prove shit beyond the fact that people who aren't avid show watchers aren't going to remember all of the characters or get all of the plots. "Complexity isn't the same as confusing"...in this case, it is. Of course, how does that differ from the books? What would you say to someone who started reading the books and said "This is too confusing?" Because that's part of the reason a lot of people don't finish reading them. Now, imagine that you are reading the books and you have one hour to absorb everything that happens in 5-10 chapters. Do you honestly think you are going to catch everything? That's what it's like for show watchers. That's why second viewings are crucial.

But hey, if you want to insist that the show sucks, go right ahead. You're the one wasting time watching something you consider dumbed down.

What the hell are you talking about? You should know that the books existed long before the show and they managed to become big hit on their own. Millions of people read them, many multiple times. I don't know where do you get that a lot of people don't finish them because that is probably as far from truth as possible. Some readers probably think that the books are confusing but it doesn't mean that they actually are confusing. The show isn't stupid because some viewers think its confusing but because even people like you who love it couldn't understand what was going on. For example the burning of Winterfell was so confusing in the show that it's unbelievable. And please don't compare episodes with one-hour reading because that is totally ridiculous and shows you really know very little about either medium. And by the way I watch the show very randomly because sometimes I watch the episode right away and sometimes I watch it days later so I'm really not going wasting too much time. I only started watching the show about year ago so I watched first fours seasons at once, and it took the more than month because it even bored me sometimes. And I only watched it because I read the books. And if you want to know I'm thinking about quitting soon because the show is really stupid. It is not only dumbed down compared to the books but it is also stupid on its own with big plot holes and inconsistencies all around.

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What the hell are you talking about? You should know that the books existed long before the show and they managed to become big hit on their own. Millions of people read them, many multiple times. I don't know where do you get that a lot of people don't finish them because that is probably as far from truth as possible. Some readers probably think that the books are confusing but it doesn't mean that they actually are confusing. The show isn't stupid because some viewers think its confusing but because even people like you who love it couldn't understand what was going on. For example the burning of Winterfell was so confusing in the show that it's unbelievable. And please don't compare episodes with one-hour reading because that is totally ridiculous and shows you really know very little about either medium. And by the way I watch the show very randomly because sometimes I watch the episode right away and sometimes I watch it days later so I'm really not going wasting too much time. I only started watching the show about year ago so I watched first fours seasons at once, and it took the more than month because it even bored me sometimes. And I only watched it because I read the books. And if you want to know I'm thinking about quitting soon because the show is really stupid. It is not only dumbed down compared to the books but it is also stupid on its own with big plot holes and inconsistencies all around.

Millions have read it...and still, that doesn't come close to the amount of people watching it. Just because a few people who called into a radio show to discuss it were not as "informed" as you are on a fictional story doesn't mean that a show watchers are stupid, or that the show aims for stupid people (something I find incredibly insulting). Of course, you have yet to prove that the show is dumbed down beyond anecdotes, which obviously don't mean anything. Because it's obvious that all sports fans are as stupid as the ones who call into sports radio shows, right? And I'm sure that it has nothing to do with the radio show picking out the callers they think will make for a more entertaining discussion, either. Just like how all people on reality shows truly act that way and nothing is ever scripted or edited to look worse.

But sure, stop watching the show is you don't enjoy it. I mean, that's what people normally do to shows or movies they don't like, instead of watching and then complaining about it.

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Millions have read it...and still, that doesn't come close to the amount of people watching it. Just because a few people who called into a radio show to discuss it were not as "informed" as you are on a fictional story doesn't mean that a show watchers are stupid, or that the show aims for stupid people (something I find incredibly insulting). Of course, you have yet to prove that the show is dumbed down beyond anecdotes, which obviously don't mean anything. Because it's obvious that all sports fans are as stupid as the ones who call into sports radio shows, right? And I'm sure that it has nothing to do with the radio show picking out the callers they think will make for a more entertaining discussion, either. Just like how all people on reality shows truly act that way and nothing is ever scripted or edited to look worse.

But sure, stop watching the show is you don't enjoy it. I mean, that's what people normally do to shows or movies they don't like, instead of watching and then complaining about it.

One more time you are absolutely missing the target. I wasn't even talking about radio show but about something that you mentioned and that is that you started reading books because the show was confusing for you. And then you said that confusing is actually same as complexity which is really absurd. Of course that tv show is going to have more viewers than the books but I don't know what does that prove? Is The Walking Dead better than George Orwell because it has more viewers? Oh and I don't have to prove anything because other people already proved how ridiculously stupid the show is. Just go visit threads about each episode and read about all the nonsense people notice in the show, you'd be surprised. And about my watching it's probably more normal than complaining against complaints which you're doing here.

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People love the books, had high hopes for the show, were compelled at first, disappointed afterwards, and voiced their opinions. Nothing strange about that. Eventually they may give up, or still feel compelled to watch because they love the original story. Again nothing strange.



Your motivations for defending a TV show that is in no way your creation are actually a lot more interesting than people's motivations for criticizing it.


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People love the books, had high hopes for the show, were compelled at first, disappointed afterwards, and voiced their opinions. Nothing strange about that.

No. Some book readers watched the shiw, expected an exact replica of the books and were disappointed when a 10-hour season failed to include every single detail of the books and went online to deride every change. Some just decided that it wasn't their cup of tea and moved on. Many others liked it because they know that it was never going to be exactly the same.

Eventually they may give up, or still feel compelled to watch because they love the original story. Again nothing strange.

No, it is strange that people would continue watching something that gave them little to no enjoyment. I liked the book "The Hobbit", and I even enjoyed the first movie; but by the second movie, I was no longer enjoying the movies. So I didn't bother with the third. This "completionist no matter what" attitude baffles me. If something is not enjoyable, there's no sensible reason to continue it. All you do is take time away from something else you could be doing and loving.

Your motivations for defending a TV show that is in no way your creation are actually a lot more interesting than people's motivations for criticizing it.

I defend the show because it's a good show that gets a lot of shit for not being like the books. To me, "not being like the books" isn't a reason to criticize any adaptation. Reasons for criticism should be based purely on how good the show is without reference to the books. I have no problem criticizing the show- I've done it often. I hated the Sandsnake scenes in this episode because they were cheesy, for example. I didn't hate them because they weren't like the books, though. Yet their are threads devoted to "OMG, they changed two words into another two words that meant the same thing! The writers did it on purpose because they hate the book readers!"

If the show goes off the rails and becomes stupid, I'll be one of the first to admit it. But I don't consider "stupid" to be "they left out my favorite part of the book!" In fact, the show DID change my favorite line from the hook..."Edd, fetch me a block". And you know what? I didn't care, because that scene was still awesome.

So, no...I'm not a shill. I'm just someone who attempts to see the show as a different take on the book. I also criticize the books, so neither version is immune to it, imo.

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Oh I wasn't implying you were a shill. Just clearly in the defensive spot, and not in any position to comment on other people's use of their precious time...

As for the rest, people have beeen arguing that the show HAS gone off the rails and become stupid and all you do is keep hacking at a strawman. Even the omission of "fetch me a block" is a lot more than just a missing line.

Edited by Facebookless Man

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Oh I wasn't implying you were a shill. Just clearly in the defensive spot, and not in any position to comment on other people's use of their precious time...

As for the rest, people have beeen arguing that the show HAS gone off the rails and become stupid and all you do is keep hacking at a strawman. Even the omission of "fetch me a block" is a lot more than just a missing line.

I didn't say they couldn't spend their time as they wished. I just said it makes no sense to me that people devote so much of their time and energy to something they clearly don't enjoy. I don't get why that makes sense to anyone, tbh. You wouldn't expect someone who hates soccer to spend time watching it and then complaining about it online because they expected it to be more like american football, would you?

The omission of "Fetch me a block" was replaced by "Bring me my sword". Which means the same thing...Jon is going to behead Slynt. Really, there's no difference other than in the first one, he was going to hang the man at first (which is what George wrote originally until people said 'that's not the right way'), and in the show, they went straight for the beheading without the whole 'hanging' charade. Seriously, if that's part of "going off the rails", then the rails are extremely small indeed. People have been arguing that the show has 'gone off the rails' over things as trivial as the way the actors and actresses looked in the first season. The show has made missteps, but so has the books. And there's no such thing as 'the perfect show'. Or 'the perfect book'.

My point still stands, though. "Not replicating the books" is not a valid criticism when the show was never capable of that in the first place. And the people who watch it are not stupid nor is the show aimed at stupid people, which is what my issue was in the first place with the previous poster's claim. "A few people called into a radio show" isn't evidence that the target audience for the show is too dumb to understand the books. The way some people feel free to insult show watchers is rather disheartening, really. People have felt the need to create a hierarchy within the fandom where anyone who likes the show or doesn't read the books or both are considered beneath them. Which is hilarious, considering that this is nothing more than a fictional story that has absolutely no bearing on real life.

Anyway, whatever. How people choose to spend their time is up to them. I guess if people can question why I like a good show, I can question why they would watch a show that they don't enjoy. It's not like either of us is going to believe the answer the other gives, so it all evens out in the end, I guess.

Edited by sj4iy

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I didn't say they couldn't spend their time as they wished. I just said it makes no sense to me that people devote so much of their time and energy to something they clearly don't enjoy. I don't get why that makes sense to anyone, tbh. You wouldn't expect someone who hates soccer to spend time watching it and then complaining about it online because they expected it to be more like american football, would you?

The omission of "Fetch me a block" was replaced by "Bring me my sword". Which means the same thing...Jon is going to behead Slynt. Really, there's no difference other than in the first one, he was going to hang the man at first (which is what George wrote originally until people said 'that's not the right way'), and in the show, they went straight for the beheading without the whole 'hanging' charade. Seriously, if that's part of "going off the rails", then the rails are extremely small indeed. People have been arguing that the show has 'gone off the rails' over things as trivial as the way the actors and actresses looked in the first season. The show has made missteps, but so has the books. And there's no such thing as 'the perfect show'. Or 'the perfect book'.

My point still stands, though. "Not replicating the books" is not a valid criticism when the show was never capable of that in the first place. And the people who watch it are not stupid nor is the show aimed at stupid people, which is what my issue was in the first place with the previous poster's claim. "A few people called into a radio show" isn't evidence that the target audience for the show is too dumb to understand the books. The way some people feel free to insult show watchers is rather disheartening, really. People have felt the need to create a hierarchy within the fandom where anyone who likes the show or doesn't read the books or both are considered beneath them. Which is hilarious, considering that this is nothing more than a fictional story that has absolutely no bearing on real life.

Anyway, whatever. How people choose to spend their time is up to them. I guess if people can question why I like a good show, I can question why they would watch a show that they don't enjoy. It's not like either of us is going to believe the answer the other gives, so it all evens out in the end, I guess.

When something is called adaptation, it should resemble the source material. But it can't resemble the source material if things are being changed just for the sake of changing as it is case with GOT. Comparison to the source material is important because the show would have been much much better if they stayed closer to the books and its very baffling that D&D always opted for the worse version which every time happens to be their own version and not Martin's. But even if analyzed on its own the show is full of holes and inconsistencies and lack of basic logic. You don't have to bring the books in conversation to see how stupid the show is and a lot of posters here actually don't compare it to the books but point failures of the show. In fact show defenders are more often referring to books lately, just like poster who said Mel wants to have sex with Jon in the books too, In situations like that its appropriate to compare the show with the books and prove that is really isn't true. But for proving the show is stupid, no you don't need books any more. Just follow Littlefinger.

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When something is called adaptation, it should resemble the source material. But it can't resemble the source material if things are being changed just for the sake of changing as it is case with GOT. Comparison to the source material is important because the show would have been much much better if they stayed closer to the books and its very baffling that D&D always opted for the worse version which every time happens to be their own version and not Martin's. But even if analyzed on its own the show is full of holes and inconsistencies and lack of basic logic. You don't have to bring the books in conversation to see how stupid the show is and a lot of posters here actually don't compare it to the books but point failures of the show. In fact show defenders are more often referring to books lately, just like poster who said Mel wants to have sex with Jon in the books too, In situations like that its appropriate to compare the show with the books and prove that is really isn't true. But for proving the show is stupid, no you don't need books any more. Just follow Littlefinger.

GRRM didn't exactly do the showrunners any favors when he was writing AFFC/ADWD. Those books are completely unadaptable for television, but D&D managed to work around those obstacles to make it fit for television. They cut travelogues (Tyrion), made Brienne's plot more relevant, are consolidating storylines rather than spreading them apart, cut a chunk of characters in order to concentrate on the already established characters fans fell in love with, making Dany's arc more interesting and transforming Stannis into a more sympathetic character. Also, I am probably one of the few who doesn't see Jaime in Dorne as a major deviation. I mean, the Riverland's plot in the books was never about the Riverlands. It was about Jaime's redemption and his desire to become a better person. Sending Jaime to Dorne places him in a more hostile environment than the docile Riverlands, raising the stakes in his storyline, while at the same time it distances him from Cersei, both physically and emotionally.

I'm not saying season 5 is perfect (Sand Snakes), but it's a lot better than I thought it would be, given the source material.

On an unrelated note, has anyone noticed the parallels in Jaime and Brienne's storylines? They're both trying to rescue princesses on opposite sides of the country. Just thought that was interesting.

Edited by Dragon in the North

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No. Some book readers watched the shiw, expected an exact replica of the books and were disappointed when a 10-hour season failed to include every single detail of the books and went online to deride every change. Some just decided that it wasn't their cup of tea and moved on. Many others liked it because they know that it was never going to be exactly the same.

And get really upset when third tier characters which are obviously about to be whacked by GRRM get whacked a little earlier in the show.

The show is telling the story of Book 1 - Game of Thrones. GRRM has since branched out to tell several other stories instead and the original GoT plot suffers as as a result. You can do that as an author because all it costs is your time, paper and ink. The show is at this point headed for a total cost in excess of a half billion dollars and is likely to top a billion if it goes for 9 seasons.

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Read the books, there is some very wonderfull dialog lines that are left out for sure but i appreciate that there is a visual representation of the wonderful novels. The biggest complaints are the continued deviations from the origina, sansa's storyline and Jaime and Bronn's Pornish adventure. Sansa's dialog seems so complicit, it is almost laughable. it is like watching someone walking towards a cliff where there can only be death or at best, life long disfigurement but they are still going, you are behind a glass and they cannot hear you or see you. The storyline is not feasable, even in a make believe story.


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What would you say to someone who started reading the books and said "This is too confusing?" Because that's part of the reason a lot of people don't finish reading them.

Honestly? I'd say go back to reading Go Dog Go, because they're obviously too vacuos to comprehend and absorb anything beyond that. Which is no surprise these days. Dumb down, don't reach up. They know their audience, don't doubt it.

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GRRM didn't exactly do the showrunners any favors when he was writing AFFC/ADWD. Those books are completely unadaptable for television, but D&D managed to work around those obstacles to make it fit for television. They cut travelogues (Tyrion), made Brienne's plot more relevant, are consolidating storylines rather than spreading them apart, cut a chunk of characters in order to concentrate on the already established characters fans fell in love with, making Dany's arc more interesting and transforming Stannis into a more sympathetic character. Also, I am probably one of the few who doesn't see Jaime in Dorne as a major deviation. I mean, the Riverland's plot in the books was never about the Riverlands. It was about Jaime's redemption and his desire to become a better person. Sending Jaime to Dorne places him in a more hostile environment than the docile Riverlands, raising the stakes in his storyline, while at the same time it distances him from Cersei, both physically and emotionally.



I'm not saying season 5 is perfect (Sand Snakes), but it's a lot better than I thought it would be, given the source material.



On an unrelated note, has anyone noticed the parallels in Jaime and Brienne's storylines? They're both trying to rescue princesses on opposite sides of the country. Just thought that was interesting.




Congratulations because it looks like that you managed to misunderstand the books entirely. Brienne's plot in the show is not more relevant and even more it is not logical at all on its own, because all it contains is unrealistic fight scenes and following Sansa into absolutely ridiculous storyline in Winterfell. Oh and Dany's arc is really not more interesting unless you think guys hiding inside walls (?!) are interesting. How can it be more interesting than her books arc when in the books there is also war with other cities and pressure on her comes from more sides because some of her own advisers are thirsty for revenge. But the best part is when you say that Riverlands plot is not about Riverlands but about Jaime. Of course it is about Jaime but it is also about Riverlands as region that suffered most in this war. It is also about Pia and LS killing Freys and Blackfish refusing to surrender even when everything is lost and so on. It really is no wonder that you like the show so much when you managed to miss everything from the books.


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Congratulations because it looks like that you managed to misunderstand the books entirely. Brienne's plot in the show is not more relevant and even more it is not logical at all on its own, because all it contains is unrealistic fight scenes and following Sansa into absolutely ridiculous storyline in Winterfell. Oh and Dany's arc is really not more interesting unless you think guys hiding inside walls (?!) are interesting. How can it be more interesting than her books arc when in the books there is also war with other cities and pressure on her comes from more sides because some of her own advisers are thirsty for revenge. But the best part is when you say that Riverlands plot is not about Riverlands but about Jaime. Of course it is about Jaime but it is also about Riverlands as region that suffered most in this war. It is also about Pia and LS killing Freys and Blackfish refusing to surrender even when everything is lost and so on. It really is no wonder that you like the show so much when you managed to miss everything from the books.

Brienne's arc in the books involves her wandering aimlessly in the Riverlands hoping to run into Sansa by chance. In the show, she is hot on Sansa's trail and, whether by helping Sansa escape or via a confrontation with Stannis, she could change the very dynamic in the North. How does the Battle of Meereen make Dany's arc more interesting? It's being too drawn out and, spoiler alert, Dany is going to win. Obviously. By making the Sons of the Harpy a bigger threat in the show, they're adding agency to Dany's storyline without overly complicating things. I'm sure that the Sons of the Harpy will be dealt with by the end of the season or early next season, whereas the battle would have taken much longer. Sometimes, less is more. We already know how much the Riverlands has suffered via Arya's storyline, and sending us the same message over and over again doesn't really serve a purpose. Besides Jaime's redemption, the Riverlands arc is filler and doesn't serve the plot at all.

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Brienne's arc in the books involves her wandering aimlessly in the Riverlands hoping to run into Sansa by chance. In the show, she is hot on Sansa's trail and, whether by helping Sansa escape or via a confrontation with Stannis, she could change the very dynamic in the North. How does the Battle of Meereen make Dany's arc more interesting? It's being too drawn out and, spoiler alert, Dany is going to win. Obviously. By making the Sons of the Harpy a bigger threat in the show, they're adding agency to Dany's storyline without overly complicating things. I'm sure that the Sons of the Harpy will be dealt with by the end of the season or early next season, whereas the battle would have taken much longer. Sometimes, less is more. We already know how much the Riverlands has suffered via Arya's storyline, and sending us the same message over and over again doesn't really serve a purpose. Besides Jaime's redemption, the Riverlands arc is filler and doesn't serve the plot at all.

LOL this is as shallow as it gets I suppose but nevermind because now I see why do you enjoy the show so much: its stripped of all those layers and layers you misunderstood or failed to notice so nothing to disturb you there. But saying Sons of the Harpy is bigger threat is hilarious really. Why are they bigger threat is it because they killed some unsullied and Barristan in terribly contrived and poorly filmed fight scene? Or is it because of guys hiding inside walls? But what would be logic of hiding inside walls is what I wonder? Why would anybody hide inside walls with daggers and masks LOL? Yes they must be a bigger threat because why else would they hide inside walls...

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Apparently Ian McElhinney didn't :

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/01/ser-barristan-dead-thrones

So we still don't know the actor who squawked.

Apparently Ian McElhinney did, but it was not a squawk.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/04/game-of-thrones-argued-against-shocking-death_n_7201962.html

So why the sort of disparaging remarks by David Benioff and Dan Weiss at the Oxford 'panel'?

From McElhinney's comments it sounds like the discussion was not acrimonious and he is on good terms with David and Dan. Maybe some one will ask Benioff and Weiss about this sometime?

Edited by boojam

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If I could remove several storylines from this season, Dorne would be one of them. (The others being Braavos, Tyrion's, and Tommen and Margaery's useless scenes.)

LOL

And what would you leave in???

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