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[Book Spoilers] EP504 Discussion


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Best episode this year. I was getting chils from head to toe with Littlefinger's speech, and Barriston and Grey Worm were amazing. Double cliff hanger.. I guess.... I think the show could kill one or both, and not bat an eyelash, so we'll see what happens.

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I like the build up of Jon Snow. 3 people have told him that his importance to the realm extends beyond his vows to the Night's Watch and the hints about his parentage. But everyone that got a backstory this episode just signed their own death warrant. Barristan and Shireen...I'm talking to you :frown5:

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I liked the Stannis-Shireen scene.We know that Shireen is probably one of the very few who survived the Greyscale spreading throughout the body,naturally there had to be a back-story for that,this scene covers that very well.

Stannis mentions that he summoned every maester,healer and apothecary. Could it be that Melisandre was the one who finally stopped the spreading? Makes sense for Selyse to be eternally grateful and believing in her and for Stannis to take her under his service.

R'hllor could hold the cure for greyscale,ties up welll with what that other red priest in Volantis was saying.

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Ya I wish they made Selmy more badass if they're going to kill him off. Maybe have Grey Worm gravely wounded and passed out and Selmy cut down 20+ of them in that room alone. Then he kneels down to check on Grey Worm only to have that whore slit his throat.

But to be fair we don't know how many he cut down on his way into that room. Maybe he killed a bunch on the streets already

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I'm wondering if Sam takes Shireen with him to save her from the flames? Is Sam ever going to leave the Wall?
I actually liked this episode except for Ellaria/Sand Snakes. They are too hokey. I wasn't a Sand Snakes book fan either, so meh on that.
I loved:

Sansa/LF in Winterfell. I know it makes no book-sense, but it's better than Sansa doing nothing and having all that FakeArya crap.
All the R+L=J hints dropped all over the damn place!
Stannis made me tear up.
Jaime thinking of Brienne. Very much a book nod.
Barristan's Rhaegar story. Don't like that he's dead though.
Bronn and Jaime road trippin'.
Jorah and Tyrion road trippin'.

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You can have both Jorah and Selmy.

At the risk of eating crow later, I say they killed Selmy so they could give part of his Meereen chapters to Tyrion

Given the amount of time/dialog allocated to Dany's story, there just isn't enough time for Barristan, Tyrion, Jorah, and Daario. Someone had to go, and at this time Barristan probably made the most sense. I don't like it, but I think there are things that have to be done for a TV adaptation, particularly one that is 10 episodes per season.

umm so cercei sends the door holder, paper fetching, mama's boy mace to deal with the iron bank? that should go well

I think it was more about getting him out of town while she arranged for Loras's arrest.

I tell you, now that I've lowered my expectations of faithfulness to the original story and even a tightly written script, I'm enjoying the show a lot more than I have since Season 1.


Jaime getting out of doing any hard work due to his one hand. A the same time, stopping a sword with it. I also like the Jaime going to rescue his daughter story more as a valid reason for not going to rescue Cersei than I did him running around the Riverlands with Brienne. At the same time, I loved the look on his face when they saw Tarth. NCW is an awesome actor and should have been put forth by D&D for an emmy for some of his work on this show.

Stannis as father. I know it's not book Stannis and rather out of character, but I still like it. I feel like Davos is getting shut out. They'd better give him something useful to do soon!

Jorah tossing Tyrion around. Wondering if that was a stunt person or Dinklage getting manhandled. Jorah may serve as good alcohol rehab for Tyrion, who was irritating for most of ADWD.


I really thought Barristan was going to tell the whole Knight of the Laughing Tree story... I hope it comes out at some point.

Too many Sand Snakes. Since they all seem alike (and similar to Ellaria) I'm not sure we needed all three. In the book, they all had different skills and personalities but that doesn't seem to apply here. None will get enough screen time. But I'm willing to wait and see.

Melisandre's lack of subtlety with Jon. I literally burst out laughing when she bared her breasts to him. Seduce him, yes, but a little more subtlety, please.

I didn't buy that Cersei would let Tommen go by himself into danger. Even people who HATE Cersei think she loves her children. That seemed out of character.

As someone mentioned above, the Sparrows are too much like ISIS. I liked them better when they were genuinely trying to protect the smallfolk, septons, and septas. I also thought it was out of character for Cersei to suggest rearming them. I would have liked to see her try to win the High Sparrow over and then begrudgingly allow them to rearm. Also would have liked to see her convince Tommen to sign a decree to that effect.

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Is Sam ever going to leave the Wall?

Why would he? No more Mance, no Val, no baby, no blood of king (unless yes, he takes Shireen and Maester Aemon) There's been no mention of things that would cause Jon to round them all up to send them away. But I guess it could happen.

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Maybe the best episode since the Mountain and the Viper.

What I liked:

Shireen and her Father: He gave her the grayscale. Because OF COURSE he did. And he loves her. Just as she is. He could have sent her to Old Valaria or Oldtown or a sept; he could have done anything. But you heard him- she’s Shireen of House Baratheon and the daughter of the baddest man in Westeros (just ask LF). He loves her, she will carry his name. And with that Stannis Baratheon is practically Father of the Year when compared to everyone else in Westeros. He’s also a decent, humane man who finally, at long last, showed that a man with ice in his veins can have warm blood in his heart. Fucking FINALLY!

The Commander of the Queens Guard: Barristan Selmy, his stories of Rheaygar, and his bad-ass swordsman ship won an episode and saved more than a few lives (though… the choreography for that scene… one of the guards standing behind Greyworm seemed to have been stabbed for like 3 and a half minutes straight before dying). I liked that they finally took the old dog out of moth-balls, even if it was that one last time (See below).

The Commander of the Kingsguard: While I am still unclear WHY Jaime had to come by boat, I think the scenes with him and Bronn were tremendous; worked well, had a lot of fun both visually and through dialog; and established that the old dogs have some new tricks (and the old ones still work). Still… still not 100% sure why they have to be so incognito, but … hey… why not?

Sansa: I continue to be impressed by the character and her struggles. Not entirely sure how it’s going to end up, but no matter who ends up in Winterfell, I bet dollars to doughnuts that Sansa is still in the mix, if not on top.

King Puppet: Tommoen is in a predicament that no King before has had – he is without valid advisors. Aerys and Joff had Tywin and Robert never listened to his. Tommen knows what he wants to do, he just has no mechanisms to actually do it. An advisor- Tyrion, Tywin, Jon Arryn, etc – would put into place a plan or two to get Tommen to get his brother-in-law back. But without that we see, first hand, just how hard it is to BE King when faced with even minor problems.

Shae: Still pleased she’s dead.

What I am on the fence about:

Religion… Scarry… Arrests… Death… STUFF!!!!: I get that Westeroes is torn apart by the war and the lack of effort to fix the war-torn world. I get that Religion is filling that gap. At the same time… the man-power that religion suddenly has is pretty ridiculous. I mean we are talking about an army larger than any … army. And they are almost as effective as a Ninja Death Squad. How did “religion” like this go from “barely mentioned” to “Seal Team Six?” I mean, does what happen in the sept stay in the sept?

Just like the books, I find the convenient rise of the religious powers to be convenient.

Who Will Beam Down to the Planet Surface? Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Bones… and Peter Baelish. One of us is not coming back. Guess which one: So… many people already complained that Peter’s plan with Sansa is stupider than we think. IT makes no sense and it makes even less sense for Bolton to go along with it. And I sort of agree, but sort of disagree because I understand that the show needs to do more with this story than the books.

But… Peter is acting an awful lot like a guy who is about to die. Stories about Starks? Check. Whimsical kisses with a Stark? Check. Not saying ‘yes’ when a Stark mentions the next time they meet? Check! Just put a fucking Red Shirt on him!

Now, that would all be bad enough but … why does Baelish do it so willingly? Why? What’s his game? Why does he seem like he wants to die? Why is one of the LEAST sensible parts of the show… making even LESS sense… and why is one of the SMARTEST characters on the show acting so … stupid? I hope its not … worse than what its already been…

What I did not Like:

All Men Must Die…Especially Ones We Kept Around For No Reason for Like Two Seasons: So, Selmy finally had a great moment- one where he showed what an amazing bad-ass he was as the Captain of the KIngsguard. Total, unmitigated bad-assery. So, lets kill him. Because… reasons.

So it begs the question: why was he here? What was the great purpose? No idea? The rudderless nature of the Dany story-line is no more evident than in how they handled Selmy’s apparent death (which will probably be next week if the “Next Week on GoT” is to be believed) because it seems that they never had a plan for his life. IN the books, at least there is the talisman of a reveal someplace. But in the show? Why? Why did you have him if you never knew how to use him?

Who Is With Me On My Grand Plan… What About You Girl Who Is Clearly Already In On My Plan: So… Dorne. Already… Dorne. So… so … soooo boring Dorne. So… there is this camp and it has 3 women in it clearly waiting for war. They already have a guy up to his neck in land; they have weapons etc. And out comes the woman from Luther and Rome- I have NO FUCKING IDEA which Sand Snake she is- don’t care either. And she said, a few weeks ago, that the Sand Snakes were “with her.” Okay, so NOW we have to have this … scene… with the Sand Snakes where they tell us… SOMETHING WE ALREADY KNEW!!!!

But wait- wait. What GoT scene would it be WITHOUT a fucking stupid soliloquy. Are you with me? Wait- let me go on with this stupid story about my shitty father, WE WILL LEAVE OUT THE PART ABOUT HOW HE HIT MY MOTHER THAT MADE HER CRY, but whatever – audience favorite – gave me that choice and I chose the spear!

Yeah, kiddo- WE KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO SAY THAT! Why else would you have been in the desert ? With weapons? And these people? UNLESS you were already “in it?”

What a waste of time. What an agaonzing waste of time. I mean… fuck.. Peter Baelish is acting like HE WANTS TO DIE! Can’t spend ANY TIME AT ALL on his scenes… but these morons and their dumb plan and their stupid stories- no wait- LETS SPEND ALL THAT TIME HERE!!!!

Overall, this was, for the second week in a row, the best episode of the season. It combined excellent story developments with great character development and mixed in conflict and action. I hope the show continues this great momentum.

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I enjoyed the episode, but yeah, I didn't care much for the Sand snakes, but I didn't much care for them in the books either so... good work D&D?

I understand the need to simplify stuff this season. Turning 1600 or so pages into one season has got to be tough. Brevity is the key. Which in turn makes the dialogue clunky. There was some great dialogue in this episode, including between Stannis and Shireen, LF's story to Sansa. I just didn't like the Sand snakes.

I really enjoyed Tyrion and Jorah. I'm convinced, with all the grey scale talk and Stannis mentioning stonemen in Valyria, that Jorah will try to take the short cut through Valyria and into the smoking sea. They'll get attacked, Jorah will save Tyrion, and in turn get grey scale himself. I wouldn't mind it if they did this. Plus we'd be able to see Valyria (hopefully not too smoking that we can't see anything).

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As others have mentioned I think it's safe to say Shireen and her king's blood will end up leaving with Sam, and Gilly. The scene with her teaching Gilly to read made it on screen for a reason. Who knows if Maester Aemon will die before the trip, or not.

And I agree the show is better when you just accept that it is a different story, and will never live up to the books. I think the pinnacle of the show will be Dany taking off on Drogon, or the first time all 3 dragon riders saddle up for battle.

Edited by Varys Imilitude
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As others have mentioned I think it's safe to say Shireen and her king's blood will end up leaving with Sam, and Gilly. The scene with her teaching Gilly to read made it on screen for a reason. Who knows if Maester Aemon will die before the trip, or not.

Good call. Plus, they can whitewash Jon a little because he won't have to force Gilly to leave behind her baby.

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As others have mentioned I think it's safe to say Shireen and her king's blood will end up leaving with Sam, and Gilly. The scene with her teaching Gilly to read made it on screen for a reason. Who knows if Maester Aemon will die before the trip, or not.

And I agree the show is better when you just accept that it is a different story, and will never live up to the books. I think the pinnacle of the show will be Dany taking off on Drogon, or the first time all 3 dragon riders saddle up for battle.

He's already sick. There's no way he's going to leave at this point...pretty sure he's going to die within the next few episodes.

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