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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XV - The stories of Bael(ish)


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By marrying her to the losing side?
Cersei was willing to kill Sansa before leaving her to Stannis, wouldn't Roose do that as well?

No, he isn't like Cersei.

Also he knows he is going to have trouble holding the North as it stands....imagine if she dies under his watch.

He'd rather use her as hostage. She may be his only safety net

(Cersei is just stupid and hateful, Roose is cold blooded and strategic)

yep

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He'd rather use her as hostage. She may be his only safety net


(Cersei is just stupid and hateful, Roose is cold blooded and strategic)






To be fair I don't think Cersei was wrong on that, there was no way Stannis would let her live in any case.



But the thing is, either way the war goes, he loses all control over her.

Either she'll be with Stannis, or with the Boltons. And to think that either of her new "captors" would give her real power is so far from the reality of the books that I have trouble trying to accepting it.

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Roose isn't Cersei.



He knows that his chances of actually holding the North are far greater with Sansa alive and in his - via Ramsay - possession. Roose is a strategist and understands her value.


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Roose isn't Cersei.

He knows that his chances of actually holding the North are far greater with Sansa alive and in his - via Ramsay - possession. Roose is a strategist and understands her value.

But I am talking about a scenario that Roose loses the battle.

Stannis is invading WF.

He may try to negotiate with Stannis (who is not known to be a forgiving person) or just kill all his hostages.

What I was trying to point out is that leaving Sansa with the side you think it's gonna lose is extremely risky.

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LF's plan doesn't make any sense at all. You say he's hedging his bets with the Sansa/Ramsay match, I say they just wanted to shoehorn Sansa into the Jeyne Poole role because they didn't have time for the Vale subplot, and threw logic out the window



Stannis hates LF and will never work with him. That remains unchanged, regardless of whether or not he helps stannis win. Common sense would dictate that LF should hang back - if the Bolton's prevail, Sansa is the ultimate bargaining chip to lock down the North and it's all hail King Roose. If stannis wins, he isn't in a position to say - "I don't want Sansa" because she is the keystone to securing the North. Even if her association with LF was known (which it isn't necessarily) Stannis would still take her as his wardeness.



But giving Sansa to the Boltons now actually strengthens their position, at a time when I thought LF was banking on Stannis. Sure, it gives Sansa a chance for revenge but the danger she is in is immense. It makes no difference if LF knows how evil Ramsay is or not; she is under the control of the Bolton's in a way which she simply isn't under the control of Harry the Heir in the books.



It's really dumb.


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LF's plan doesn't make any sense at all. You say he's hedging his bets with the Sansa/Ramsay match, I say they just wanted to shoehorn Sansa into the Jeyne Poole role because they didn't have time for the Vale subplot, and threw logic out the window

Stannis hates LF and will never work with him. That remains unchanged, regardless of whether or not he helps stannis win. Common sense would dictate that LF should hang back - if the Bolton's prevail, Sansa is the ultimate bargaining chip to lock down the North and it's all hail King Roose. If stannis wins, he isn't in a position to say - "I don't want Sansa" because she is the keystone to securing the North. Even if her association with LF was known (which it isn't necessarily) Stannis would still take her as his wardeness.

But giving Sansa to the Boltons now actually strengthens their position, at a time when I thought LF was banking on Stannis. Sure, it gives Sansa a chance for revenge but the danger she is in is immense. It makes no difference if LF knows how evil Ramsay is or not; she is under the control of the Bolton's in a way which she simply isn't under the control of Harry the Heir in the books.

It's really dumb.

If you insist on seeing it form that perspective nothing I can say will disuade you.

I think LF is just making a risky move, with his queen (chess reference, potiential pun).

He wants insdie the action, as well as to have Sansa get active. She is truly a little bird (thank you Hound) but LF needs to encourage her to fly....and how do you encourage a bird to fly?

LF knows what he is doing. Is has done so well thus far, making only minor mitakes.

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If you insist on seeing it form that perspective nothing I can say will disuade you.

I think LF is just making a risky move, with his queen (chess reference, potential pun).

He wants insdie the action, as well as to have Sansa get active. She is truly a little bird (thank you Hound) but LF needs to encourage her to fly....and how do you encourage a bird to fly?

LF knows what he is doing. Is has done so well thus far, making only minor mitakes.

A risky move? Alright, so LF is a gambler. But what exactly does he stand to gain from placing Sansa in so much danger which he couldn't have gotten by keeping her safe at the vale until the situation was resolved. He could have played both sides, offered just a betrothal with Ramsay, anything but placing Sansa where violence is inevitable.

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A risky move? Alright, so LF is a gambler. But what exactly does he stand to gain from placing Sansa in so much danger which he couldn't have gotten by keeping her safe at the vale until the situation was resolved. He could have played both sides, offered just a betrothal with Ramsay, anything but placing Sansa where violence is inevitable.

Keep in mind the DEAL was to DELIVER sansa. He may have tried to keep her in the vale we don't know....

Also again, as I've said many times before. It wouldn't make sense for either the invading (stanis) or defending (Bolton) to harm her in the even of a victory/defeat scenerio.

Neither of the forces wants to harm her, and she'd be an asset to either.

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Keep in mind the DEAL was to DELIVER sansa. He may have tried to keep her in the vale we don't know....

Also again, as I've said many times before. It wouldn't make sense for either the invading (stanis) or defending (Bolton) to harm her in the even of a victory/defeat scenerio.

Neither of the forces wants to harm her, and she'd be an asset to either.

That's true - but it will be a violent siege. Even you have to admit that it is a dangerous environment in which to place you prize chess piece. And for what? The brief allaiance of the Bolton's? Sansa as Wardeness of the North under Stannis? How does any of that translate to power for LF if Sansa isn't under his thumb?

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Littlefinger knows the Boltons could not kill her because of her key status. However, show Littlefinger does not know Ramsay and Ramsay is illogical. He is insane. Regarding Sansa, the very last thing, matter of fact, I do not want happening to her at all is a rape or even a consensual bedding to take place. I am freaked out by Alfie Allen's interview about Ramsay the worst and him being second. Really freaked out. "The blogs are not gonna like it", can only mean a loved character will suffer. Also D&D talking about Sophie being a very strong actress - obviously in relation to her script this year. Sophie discussing her second season attempted rape scene as truamatic and her loving traumatic scenes as she is an actress with aspirations. It fits the deepest, darkest fears of those who read the bedding of Jeyne Poole. I do not think it will go that far, animals other than the human kind will not be involved. However, the marriage is gonna take place and there cannot be a wedding without a bedding. Simple enough and I fear it because Sansa means a lot to just about 90% of the fan base and we do not like seeing bad things happen to characters we care about.


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Also again, as I've said many times before. It wouldn't make sense for either the invading (stanis) or defending (Bolton) to harm her in the even of a victory/defeat scenerio.

Neither of the forces wants to harm her, and she'd be an asset to either.

If Roose is defeated and he thinks there is no way Stannis will let he live (which is a good guess) there is no reason to leave Sansa alive. She is no longer an asset. Of course, there are no motives to kill her either, other than the long hatred between the houses Stark/Bolton that has being going on for centuries.

I pointed out that Cersei was prepared to do that, because she was in this exact situation. Of course Roose is more of a strategist and colder than she is, but so what? Cersei knew Sansa had value, but she would kill her just for spite. Maybe Roose would do that too, LF can't know that. Ramsay would totally kill her just for spite. She is in incredible danger in the middle of the Boltons.

And for what? The brief allaiance of the Bolton's? Sansa as Wardeness of the North under Stannis? How does any of that translate to power for LF if Sansa isn't under his thumb?

Exactly, brilliant summary!!

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New material. Sophie Turner speaks about Sansa and Littlefinger.

Look at Sophie's look in the talking head. She's wearing the same black feather dress, but with a Catelyn-style collar, and she has braided red hair in her Northern hairstyle. The dye (well, wig, but you know what I mean) is gone!

If next episode has that scene that Alfie Allen's been talking about that was supposed to happen midseason, it sounds as if Theon will be watching whatever horrible thing happens, meaning that it will be done to someone else. From the way he spoke about it, it sounded as if Alfie Allen would have to convey the awfulness of what was happening through his own reactions.

I looked at the video and yes, that collar was clearly "costume" and I also notice in this episode 4, Mel is traveling with Stannis's army. What if, Sansa gets killed in an escape from Winterfell and Mel gives her the "kiss", ending Sansa's maiden role and that of Jeyne Poole and picking up the Lady Stoneheart role. We also know from Sophie interviews, that she does find out about her brothers and she says that Sansa, despite becoming a prisoner again, has to hold on for her brothers. There is so much going on in Winterfell this year.

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Honestly my my brain is just malfunctioning with this storyline.

Littlefinger sends Sansa to WF for god knows why and then admits this episode that he believes Stannis will take WF and appoint her Warderness of the North. Like why on earth did he not give Sansa to Stannis in the first place? Sansa is obviously going to be raped and tortured by Ramsay, she will escape with Theon and get captured by Stannis all the same. Book Littlefinger would be laughing so hard at this pathetic excuse of an adaptation on his character.

its basically so he has a finger in each pie...

If Stannis wins Sansa is a Stark and the heir so he will make her Warden of the North

If Stannis looses Sansa marries Ramsey.

No matter what she will stay in the North and have some/power/influence and at this stage LF thinks he's in control of her.

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If Stannis actually takes WF, I can seem him more likely marry Sansa himself rather than make her Wardeness of the North and I can see this happening if Shireen is sacrificed and perhaps Selyse kills herself if she gets info that Stannis is dead or being killed for killing Shireen...and she already considers herself weak for not giving him a son


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Sansa is valuable to everyone, The Tyrells wanted her for her potential claim. The Lannisters the same. The Boltons and no doubt if things played out, Stannis would see her as such an opportunity. Littlefinger covets her and her claim ENDLESSLY but he has the will power and the forethought to realize the time is not right. Sansa is always in great danger. Ever since she left Winterfell all those years ago on what she thought was going to be a fairy tale life has turned into a horror story that keeps changing from chapter to chapter. Her only true salvation from all ill-doers is Brienne / Pod and if and when Rickon comes out of hiding and the Northern lords assert themselves as loyal and Stark men. Her brother, though a child can protect her pending the proper backing. She and she alone could be his regent and raise him to be strong. I sincerely hope they get the chance but this whole story for her this season is stressful. Whether it is totally mucked up in the end, remains to be seen.



As for Littlefinger, I think this is one gamble he loses.


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That's true - but it will be a violent siege. Even you have to admit that it is a dangerous environment in which to place you prize chess piece. And for what? The brief allaiance of the Bolton's? Sansa as Wardeness of the North under Stannis? How does any of that translate to power for LF if Sansa isn't under his thumb?

Just like in the books, Littlefinger is under the impression that Sansa is loyal to him by this point. He might not be half wrong, actually - though that's where Sansa finding out about LF betrayal of Ned should come in... But as far as LF knows, Stannis and co don't know about that.

In the Stannis grants Sansa real ultimate power scenario, there's a lot that Littlefinger and Sansa can do coordinating together at a distance - more than if they are together in the Vale doing nothing. Now they have the armies of the North and the Vale ostensibly supporting Stannis, but in reality playing their own game too.

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Roose Bolton killed Catelyn Stark. Petyr won't allow the Boltons to live and, if anything, wants to kill them before Stannis does it. Worst case, Stannis fails, Sansa marries into the family, and then Petyr has the Boltons eliminated.



As awful and challenging as the Boltons are and as naively as Petyr is written the television show, the underlying truth of LF is that his schemes work. He doesn't have to be present to carry out a plan, a la Joffery's assassination. The look he gave Sansa when she mentioned being married when he returned didn't look jealous or sad or resigned; it was the same look he gave her when he avoided pointing out that maybe Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna.


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Because he needs the opportunity to get Stannis' support for Sansa's claim, which as LF outlined, is plan A.

There is no way in the 7 hells that Stannis would support Sansa if she was hangin' out with Littlefinger in the Vale. He'd rightly assume she was just his puppet, and he's not putting Littlefinger in charge of the north willingly.

But, if Littlefinger is no where to be found, and Sansa kneels before Stannis after the liberation of Winterfell and tells him how she undermined the boltons' (and maybe killed Ramsey herself...), well, I think he'd say "Rise Lady Sansa Stark, I name you heir to Lady of Winterfell. Your father was an honorable man."

To be technical, she already is Lady Stark, as the old women stated last week, he's more protection for her title and she may give her backing for the Northern support.

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I will go so far as to say that Lyanna Mormont summed it up right, The Starks are the only acknowledged Kings in the North. I suspect Stannis and Bolton will bloody each other. Sansa will or will not remain a virgin and or pregnant or not. Rickon will be made known to her this season I bet and the actor may not appear until next year but that is something that should be kept from Littlefinger. Now, regarding him, will he show up with a Vale army or send one to "help" the Boltons but actually join Stannis? I still think Littlefinger would have some explaining to do to Lord Royce regarding Sansa ending up in Winterfell to begin with. Next 2 episodes should be very, very interesting.


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