Jump to content

[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XV - The stories of Bael(ish)


Recommended Posts

Finding fault with the showrunners because you can't make sense of LF's plot now is ridiculous. It isn't meant to make sense at this point. He clearly hasn't revealed all.



He might be going to KL but all he said was that Cersei had called him there. I think he is going to the Vale to rally them to his banner to save Sansa from the Boltons. They don't know he took her there himself.



If Stannis wins Winterfell with LF's help, he is going to have to make LF warden of the north. He already has the Riverlands and the Vale. With the Vale behind him, Stannis can take Casterly Rock and the war is pretty much over.



Or LF may go to KL and take out Cersei and Margery so he can marry off Tommen to Shireen ending the civil war.



Or he might have any number of other plots up his sleeve.



And in any case, there is more than a little of the underpant gnome to LF's schemes. He was master of coin in KL at the start of the civil war that he began. He could have sided with Ned, he could have told Robert about Cersei and helped him exterminate the Lannisters in return for Casterly Rock.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that Littlefinger may well play a major part in Cersei's downfall later this series.

I see little reason for him to come back to KL unless he's perhaps going to be involved in the stuff to come with Olyvar.

I can see him leading Cersei on to convincing Olyvar to name Margaery as a lover (which would explain the earlier scene where she interrupted Olyvar and Loras) which would get her imprisoned but then Olyvar (like the Kettleblack in the books) will end up being tortured and implicating Cersei before Lancel confesses the rest.

But on the other side of things, his apparent plan vis a vis the Boltons makes next to no sense right now!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, after this episode, I am pretty sure that LF does not realize what monster Ramsey is. The way he says to Sansa that Ramsey is "already in love with her" and that Roose is the more dangerous of the two. I fear for poor Sansa, I don't think the show will go as far as books did with Jeyne but another round of Sansa abuse is in offing now. I suspect that the way it went in the books was because neither Roose nor Ramsey cared how far they can go with Jeyne because they knew before she arrived that she was fArya.



But we are definitely on track with Sansa being Jeyne, and Brianne and Pod taking place of Mance and his spearwives in the rescue plot.



I had hoped that Sansa would be able to manipulate Ramsey the way Margaery did Joff, but I suspect not based on this episode.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Roose is defeated and he thinks there is no way Stannis will let he live (which is a good guess) there is no reason to leave Sansa alive. She is no longer an asset. Of course, there are no motives to kill her either, other than the long hatred between the houses Stark/Bolton that has being going on for centuries.

I pointed out that Cersei was prepared to do that, because she was in this exact situation. Of course Roose is more of a strategist and colder than she is, but so what? Cersei knew Sansa had value, but she would kill her just for spite. Maybe Roose would do that too, LF can't know that. Ramsay would totally kill her just for spite. She is in incredible danger in the middle of the Boltons.

Exactly, brilliant summary!!

LF takes risks, and so far they have paid off. At first look, his game is very simple: Keep his pawn(sansa) at WF allied with the Boltons. If Stannis wins, there is no way he will hurt the daughter of Ned Stark. Even is Stannis knows Sansa is in Team LF and he hates LF, he needs a Stark to hold the North.

If Stannis loses, Sansa will manipulate Ramsay, and avenge her family or do whatever LF has in mind for her. Its not made clear how exactly does LF expects Sansa to avenge her family. Either he is keeping secrets from Sansa and/or audience, or he doesn't have a plan yet.

So either way, Sansa gets winterfell.

The problem arises when you consider what people will do in desperate situations. Cersei was ready to kill everyone in Red Keep including herself and her son in the face of total defeat. If Roose does something like that, LF loses his most valuable piece in the game. But Roose is not Cersei. I can't picture a Bolton doing something suicidal. Its only Cersei and Aerys who are mad enough to do such thing and Roose is more likely to keep Sansa alive and use her as a hostage to negotiate terms with Stannis. Even if Stannis has surrounded the castle, if Roose has Sansa at swordpoint, its not easy for Stannis or his Northern allies (if any) to destroy the Boltons. There is a chance Sansa may get killed, but a bigger chance that she survives. And LF is a betting man.

Now consider the alternative: LF knows Stannis is going to march to Winterfell. If Stannis loses, LF can offer Sansa to Roose and Sansa can avenge her family. If Stannis wins before Sansa has established herself in the North, LF and Sansa loses power in WF. She maybe a Stark, but if Lannisters can put Boltons in winterfell, Stannis can make some other lords like Karstarks as Wardens of North. Its easier to put Sansa in WF before the war and in a bargaining position with both Stannis and the Boltons instead of hoping for the loyalty of North to Starks to help Sansa after Stannis wins WF.

All of this shows LF is his own man. But if he is training Sansa to play the game, she has to learn to save her neck in difficult circumstances. Winterfell is her own home. Of course, however good LF is in collecting details, he won't expect Ramsay to be as insane as he really is, and I reckon its gonna throw a wrench in LF's plans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Among book readers and show watchers alike, we have those who think Littlefinger was actually in love with Cat and wants to avenge her death, and those who think he's much more cynical than that and simply using Cat the same way he did everyone else. I happen to fall into the latter group and think it's entirely possible he's using the tragedy of the RW and his professed "love" for Cat for his own ends



This is the same guy who never lifted a little finger to help Sansa with Joffrey until he could find a way to frame her for his murder, so I'm open to the possibility he knows exactly what Ramsay is like and really doesn't care one way or the other what kind of danger he's putting her in. The dog and pony show about how much he loved Cat and wants to avenge her death is just a cover story he's using to milk her sympathy so she will go along with the Ramsay scheme.



edit: nvm the tinfoil


Link to comment
Share on other sites

So in the preview clip we see an army heading out of Castle Black, which appears to be Stannis' army. Perhaps he's heading to Deepwood Motte, which would make sense since that is where Asha (Yara) retreated to after her failed attempt at rescuing Reek. Sets up the show storyline to mirror the books, sort of, with Theon ultimately rescuing Sansa...possibly to be met by Brienne outside Winterfell...only to run into and be captured by Stannis. Get the Theon/Yara reuniting, Sansa is safe-ish, and Brienne is stuck up north with the man she REALLY wants to kill.



Also, despite Mel's outrcies this past episode to have Stannis take her with him, I bet she ends up staying at Castle Black with Jon just like she does in the books.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that Littlefinger may well play a major part in Cersei's downfall later this series.

I see little reason for him to come back to KL unless he's perhaps going to be involved in the stuff to come with Olyvar.

I can see him leading Cersei on to convincing Olyvar to name Margaery as a lover (which would explain the earlier scene where she interrupted Olyvar and Loras) which would get her imprisoned but then Olyvar (like the Kettleblack in the books) will end up being tortured and implicating Cersei before Lancel confesses the rest.

But on the other side of things, his apparent plan vis a vis the Boltons makes next to no sense right now!

LF's northern plan makes total sense. It's a complete bet hedge. If Stannis takes Winterfell, Sansa will relay LF's plan to him and he will presumably be grateful for the gift of a Stark in the north to rally the northerners to his cause. If Stannis fails to take WF and the Boltons remain in power, they will also be thankful for LF delivering a Stark to them in order to legitimize their rule in the North. No matter the outcome, LF comes out ahead...which falls in line with everything he has ever done. It's not some plot to help Sansa or avenge the Starks...hell, he was the one who created the entire Stark downfall. All Littlefinger cares about is himself, and he will throw anyone under the bus if it means he gets out ahead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finding fault with the showrunners because you can't make sense of LF's plot now is ridiculous. It isn't meant to make sense at this point. He clearly hasn't revealed all.

^THIS. We don't even know book Littlefinger's plot, yet people hold it against the showrunners that they can't figure it out yet in the show. Double standards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He might be going to KL but all he said was that Cersei had called him there. I think he is going to the Vale to rally them to his banner to save Sansa from the Boltons. They don't know he took her there himself.

Considering that Baelish and Sansa rode off in a carriage together, they'd have to be dumb not to know that he took her there himself, seeing as they would have had to have left via the Bloody Gate. And we know from filming and the trailers that Littlefinger is in King's Landing.

LF's northern plan makes total sense. It's a complete bet hedge. If Stannis takes Winterfell, Sansa will relay LF's plan to him and he will presumably be grateful for the gift of a Stark in the north to rally the northerners to his cause. If Stannis fails to take WF and the Boltons remain in power, they will also be thankful for LF delivering a Stark to them in order to legitimize their rule in the North. No matter the outcome, LF comes out ahead...which falls in line with everything he has ever done. It's not some plot to help Sansa or avenge the Starks...hell, he was the one who created the entire Stark downfall. All Littlefinger cares about is himself, and he will throw anyone under the bus if it means he gets out ahead.

No, it doesn't make sense, because none of that requires Sansa to go to Winterfell and put herself in mortal danger. All they have to do is wait for the battle to be over and see who wins, from a safe distance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All they have to do is wait for the battle to be over and see who wins, from a safe distance.

And THAT would be amazing on TV, for sure. Sansa eating lemoncakes in the Vale for 3 seasons, that's what we all want! :bowdown:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd take that over Sansa being threatened with rape yet again. Inventive, almost creative storytelling!

In terms of storytelling, it's not creative to have characters waiting "from a safe distance" until all is over. It's more creative to have characters in dangerous places (but I can understand that the Sansa fans don't like the idea).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd take that over Sansa being threatened with rape yet again. Inventive, almost creative storytelling!

Insinuating people aren't raped or threatened with it all the time in Westeros? There's more rape in the books for starters. Being sensitive to it only because it's a character you personally root for is another story. If you'd prefer to have Sansa read Robin bedtime stories and do nothing of import all year then I'm glad they aren't pandering to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Insinuating people aren't raped or threatened with it all the time in Westeros? There's more rape in the books for starters. Being sensitive to it only because it's a character you personally root for is another story. If you'd prefer to have Sansa read Robin bedtime stories and do nothing of import all year then I'm glad they aren't pandering to you.

I'm not against this idea because it's only about that, but because it makes no sense whatsoever. Why would LF put her in that position, how will she take advantage of the situation to avenge her family, why leave LF's leverage alone in Winterfell, and yes, why repeat this storyline with Sansa, since the character has been through a similar arc? I'm not questioning the arc because it's revolving my favorite character, though obviously it helps, but I'm questioning it because it's downright idiotic. It's not original to create tension by making a character pass for the same situation yet again.

And Sansa could do tons of interesting things that wouldn't feel like heavy-handed attempts of creating plot-tension out of thin-air and against all logic. The theory of Sansa going to Winterfell as Alayne at least made sense, since we know Sansa in the books CAN'T marry. Oh, look, another plot hole! Wasn't it last year that Lysa Arryn said Sansa had to wait for Tyrion to die?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love the decision to change things up with Sansa and LF on the show...It simply would not work on the show for Sansa to be stuck in the Vale for that long.



I guess I kind of appreciate the show *trying* and failing to sort of explain why LF would leave Sansa in WF-- I mean, if the whole point is to have a win-win situation, why give up your trump card BEFORE the situation is decided. I mean in this scenario, all LF has to do is WAIT until after the Battle of Winterfell is resolved and then reveal Sansa. Now, he's just needlessly endangering her prematurely.



But yeah, like I said I understand why the show felt the need to do this. They had to put a POV character in Winterfell (a season of Farya and Reek being repeatedly tortured was not gonna work) and given Sansa really had nothing to do anyway it made sense.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

In terms of storytelling, it's not creative to have characters waiting "from a safe distance" until all is over. It's more creative to have characters in dangerous places (but I can understand that the Sansa fans don't like the idea).

And yet Sansa fans should like the idea since whatever happens to Sansa her importance within the plot - and the screentime she gets - are much higher that way. No matter what happens to her I think her character will stay in the story for a while yet and just like Tyrion she won't lose her nose to frostbite since this is too complicated to CGI.

No, seriously, why should fans like it if their favorite stays away from all danger at the expense of staying outside of all action. Just like with Jon, Tyrion, Arya or Cersei we do not know what will happen to Sansa and that keeps us interested.

I mean, Shireen or Jon are in REAL danger to die!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LF's plots only seem brilliant after the fact. And only because he has won so far.

Putting Sansa at risk makes perfect sense. LF wants the north to rise up to save her.

But why would Roose agree to an engagement if he knew that was a possibility? He wants their marriage to calm things down in the North, not make things worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how much time she has, but maybe she's going to pit son against dad if maybe Walda is pregnant, and destroy Boltons that way and also keep the Freys out of the North.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...