[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XV - The stories of Bael(ish)

[sj4iy]

If you mean the post-departure fantasy stuff, I agree, but that's not the core of their narrative, it's their actual conversations -- half of which were cut, leaving the others lacking any context (the show's version of Blackwater makes absolutely no sense as a result) -- and quite apart from that, the writers never have any problem having Sansa speak freely when they want her to say something (see, e.g., Sansa and Littlefinger meeting in broad daylight multiple times in season 3 and nobody ever noticing). In any event, it's quite possible to tell a story revolving around a character who doesn't say much. Beyond which, Sansa is far, far more passive in the show than in the books, since they cut most of her active plot. Remember when Sansa arms herself and sneaks through the Red Keep at night to find out the source of a mysterious message promising to take her home? That would have been great TV.

It would have made great tv, but it doesn't really lead to anything significant, so I can see why it's not in there.

I think we will see more of that kind of Sansa in Winterfell, where it could lead to something significant.

[Colonel Green]

It would have made great tv, but it doesn't really lead to anything significant, so I can see why it's not in there.

Yes it does, it leads to her escape. Not to mention, it shows her being an active character, and her involvement with Dontos informs all the decisions she makes subsequently, including her decision not to leave with the Hound, and her refusal to accept Tyrion's help later (where we see her taking a calculated risk to remain closer to Joffrey in the hopes that it will allow her to actually escape the Red Keep and reunite with her family -- which the show cut entirely).

[Newstar]

That's a really, really big stretch. First one imagines plenty of characters in this series are going to die at the end -- that doesn't somehow make their arcs expendable just because they're "utlimately doomed"; I'm pretty sure Jaime and Cersei are ultimately doomed, for instance. Second, they were already thinking about this back in season 2, apparently, which was well before they got much in the way of details as to what was coming. Third, that idea just presupposes that GRRM is a bad writer. If Sansa has no endgame or ultimate role, why is he giving her such a huge number of chapters and a training arc, just like her siblings?

1. Sansa is expendable in a way that Jon, Arya, Dany, Bran and Tyrion, the leads, aren't. Even Bran got to keep his training arc; Sansa's was skipped altogether, with her entire AFFC storyline being destroyed with a few scenes. Some fans have been loudly insisting that Sansa is just as important to the narrative as Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany, and Tyrion, but the Sansa/Jeyne swap seems another blow to that view. GRRM's outline notably omitted Sansa from the list of five characters whom the series was supposed to track, who were guaranteed to survive the series, and Sansa was a mere footnote in his outline. That should have made more fans sit up and take notice. D&D--who know Sansa's fate--see no issue with swapping her arc for Jeyne Poole's, a minor character at best, and reducing Sansa to a bit player in someone else's arc. That should be another hint.

2. Again, the fact that they were already thinking in Season 2 about doing some sort of Ramsay/Sansa interaction should be a tipoff that the writers as far back as Season 2 were planning on taking a machete to Sansa's arc. That doesn't bode well for her, any more than Arianne and Aegon being entirely lifted out of the storyline bodes well for them.

3. You're making the mistake of equating Sansa's arc with Arya's and Bran's as a "training arc." However, that presupposes that Sansa's arc is a training arc, aimed at imparting Sansa with crucial skills she will need to play a part in future books. Suppose it's no more a training arc than Quentyn's storyline, where he was stripped of his illusions (much like Sansa was), was a training arc. Robb's arc looked like a training arc, too, right until he was murdered. It's a mistake to make predictions about Sansa based on the assumption that Sansa is a top-tier character whose arc is just as important to the story as Arya's and Bran's, when it seems increasingly apparent that this isn't the case. Furthermore, D&D not only eliminated the "training arc," but appear to have plopped Sansa into the same situation as a character who had none of that training, seemingly to be victimized just as that character was victimized. They clearly don't see much importance in her supposed "training arc" or think much of her as a player. If anything, Sansa being a "player" in 5x04 appears to be a cruel joke at Sansa's expense, since Littlefinger urges her to charm Ramsay and bring him under her power as Littlefinger urged Sansa to charm Harry, when the viewer knows that Ramsay is a vicious psychopath and that Sansa's supposed player skills will be useless.

Nor is a huge number of chapters to date some sort of guarantee as to importance to the endgame. Just ask Eddard and Catelyn.

Finally, it seems hilarious to me that given that D&D know Sansa's endgame, some fans have been complaining at length about Sansa being marginalized in the show and D&D being seemingly uninterested in her character development, while simultaneously loudly protesting that Sansa is incredibly important to the books and is a central character in the endgame. There's some real cognitive dissonance going on there. Perhaps they should take the hint.

[sj4iy]

Yes it does, it leads to her escape. Not to mention, it shows her being an active character, and her involvement with Dontos informs all the decisions she makes subsequently, including her decision not to leave with the Hound, and her refusal to accept Tyrion's help later (where we see her taking a calculated risk to remain closer to Joffrey in the hopes that it will allow her to actually escape the Red Keep and reunite with her family -- which the show cut entirely).

She still escaped. It's not as if she were autonomous in either situation...she was still being helped in both the books and the show.

Sorry, but I read the books and even then, I didn't find Sansa to be a terribly interesting character. Perhaps you did, but I didn't. I still don't. The show storyline this season has made her interesting to me in ways that the books never did.

In any case, I'd rather not go round and round about this. It is what it is. I don't think the show made her anything that the books didn't already make her. I'll agree to disagree.

[Colonel Green]

2. Again, the fact that they were already thinking in Season 2 about doing some sort of Ramsay/Sansa interaction should be a tipoff that the writers as far back as Season 2 were planning on taking a machete to Sansa's arc. That doesn't bode well for her, any more than Arianne and Aegon being entirely lifted out of the storyline bodes well for them.

The fact that they were thinking of this in season 2 belies the idea that this has to do with the unpublished material, since they didn't actually know much about the ending of the series at that point.

3. You're making the mistake of equating Sansa's arc with Arya's and Bran's as a "training arc." However, that presupposes that Sansa's arc is a training arc, aimed at imparting Sansa with crucial skills she will need to play a part in future books. Suppose it's no more a training arc than Quentyn's storyline, where he was stripped of his illusions (much like Sansa was), was a training arc. Robb's arc looked like a training arc, too, right until he was murdered. It's a mistake to make predictions about Sansa based on the assumption that Sansa is a top-tier character whose arc is just as important to the story as Arya's and Bran's, when it seems increasingly apparent that this isn't the case. Furthermore, D&D not only eliminated the "training arc," but appear to have plopped Sansa into the same situation as a character who had none of that training, seemingly to be victimized just as that character was victimized. They clearly don't see much importance in her supposed "training arc" or think much of her as a player. If anything, Sansa being a "player" in 5x04 appears to be a cruel joke at Sansa's expense, since Littlefinger urges her to charm Ramsay and bring him under her power as Littlefinger urged Sansa to charm Harry, when the viewer knows that Ramsay is a vicious psychopath and that Sansa's supposed player skills will be useless.

Robb was never a main character. Sansa is. It's not a question of whether she's as important as some other character (but regardless, her arc is rather directly paralleled with her siblings, so you would instead need some grounds to think it's different, when the author himself is setting up such an obvious metric for comparison), but the contents of her own story; GRRM would not dedicate so much time to a character who wasn't important (equating her wit Quentyn, one of GRRM's one-book late additions, just doesn't fly at all).

Moreover, D&D cut her training arc, but they did so under the pretext that she'd already been training (which they never showed, but that's consistent with their love of "switch-flip" character development). As to the idea that they don't "think much of her as a player", we're supposed to think this whole Winterfell scheme actually makes sense (or else you'd also have to think they don't think much of Littlefinger as a player), and unforeseen turns of events will create drama. Even in the worst-case scenario where she ends up just replacing Jeyne, I expect that in their minds the whole idea of her going to Winterfell at all constitutes "playing the game" and makes for an interesting story, even if it actually doesn't do the character any favours to viewers (which is, again, consistent with past practices).

Nor is a huge number of chapters to date some sort of guarantee as to importance to the endgame. Just ask Eddard and Catelyn.

The difference there being that Ned and Catelyn substantially carried the early story of House Stark. The kids, including Sansa, were on a different footing, and are only starting to come into their own.

Finally, it seems hilarious to me that given that D&D know Sansa's endgame, some fans have been complaining at length about Sansa being marginalized in the show and D&D being seemingly uninterested in her character development, while simultaneously loudly protesting that Sansa is incredibly important to the books and is a central character in the endgame. There's some real cognitive dissonance going on there. Perhaps they should take the hint.

No, that's not cognitive dissonance, that's saying that D&D aren't doing a good job with her character development (she's hardly alone there). The idea that the changes the writers make are all due to their knowledge of the endgame just doesn't fly, since they made mincemeat of Catelyn and Robb's arc and that wasn't due to some greater knowledge of what was to come, to cite an obvious example.

She still escaped. It's not as if she were autonomous in either situation...she was still being helped in both the books and the show.

The difference, and a rather big one, being that in the books she had agency in her escape, whereas in the show she was just being dragged around like a plot token, completely unawares. One of those develops her character and makes her an active player, the other does not. As to whether she was "being helped"...so what? It's a rare character who does much of anything without help.

[Lord Damian]

Unless D&D are lying to us but GRRM too. They have all admitted that the show and books are ending the same but taking different paths to get there. As I stated before. Jaime's divergence can easily be remedied by moving him around Westeros etc. Sansa, of all the major characters that we know of is the most out of place. There is a reason for it. Also, the huge amount of hints given by Sophie, D&D themselves etc.. Sophie/Sansa is to have a very important and expanded year this year which is different from her book storyline, unlike all other "major" characters. This to me, must mean that she is coming to the end of Sansa's story. Sophie is a popular cast member and she is by all means family to the producers and so it is only logical for her to transform into another character that came back from a seemingly plot end. The darkness etc, vengeance etc. LS is going to be reborn from her. How she ends and by whom may be interesting. If she dies, my guess is LF (if I cannot have you, no one will) that is just a guess.

[Colonel Green]

This to me, must mean that she is coming to the end of Sansa's story.

That really doesn't follow. And I also don't think that "moving him around Westeros" will resolve Jaime's divergence. With no Lady Stoneheart (and yeah, I'm quite certain she's gone), you've lost a huge piece of plot, as well as theme.

There is a reason for it.

They wanted to keep the number of plots down, probably weren't big fans of the Vale story, and thought that putting her in Winterfell would increase the drama there.

[Lord Damian]

That really doesn't follow in the slightest. And I also don't think that "moving him around Westeros" will resolve Jaime's divergence. With no Lady Stoneheart (and yeah, I'm quite certain she's gone), you've lost a huge piece of plot, as well as theme.

They wanted to keep the number of plots down, probably weren't big fans of the Vale story, and thought that putting her in Winterfell would increase the drama there.

I am hedging that she has not shown up yet - Jaime and Bronn going to Dorne. I do not think Bronn comes back and Jaime can be back in another episode the way traveling in Westeros on the series seems like taking a few hour drive. People seem to dropping like flies in this season and I think it is just the tip of the iceberg. I may be wrong about Sansa coming to an end as Sansa but I do not think she will be alive in the end.

[Ser Creighton]

Sansa is expendable? I am not sure why, because the show moved her to the north? Or her training is different than Jon, Bran, Dany, Arya etc... Well it should be different, Bran, Dany, Jon all have that Other end game feel to them, a big reason Martin placed them on the periphery is because of that. But Sansa's training is not really magic based like Arya and Bran, so she can be moved.

I can't say I am a fan of anything Ramsey happening to Sansa, not that I know for sure it will or to what extent. But I have always assumed sshe would end up teaming with Stannis in some way, they both kind of moved North at about the same time and I happen to be big on symbolism in Martins story. Basically Blue eyed Stormlord, northern army, Vale of the Moon all seem to connect, and I sort of saw Sansa taking up her father role. Similar what happened in Roberts rebellion, though I never expect Sansa to lead the Van. For her story to come full circle she does have to take up Ned mantel because that is where her conflict began, and she should be involved in KL and Cersei, and the Tyrells, LF of course. All people who tried to use her.

The way I see it, is in the books, Sansa is trying to get the Vale, on the show she already has the Vale. They will support her, so her next move would probably involve Stannis and the north as she needs allies. Now of course in the books she will never marry Ramsey, probably never meet him. They just moved her to the north early and added that as part of her story instead of the Harry the Heir stuff. They skipped the Vale probably because of cost. In the show she probably evolves in way similar to how she would evolves in the books in the Vale. It probably will be D&D's version of this, but I think it may be sort of similar.

It's not Sansa who is expendable it's Harry, he is really not that important to the story, Sansa eventually being in the north and with Vale support probably is important to the story. If she dies at some point that does not make her expendable either. She has a story being told like all the other POV's and in the end that is when you can really judge that idea. Dying at some point does not make a character expendable, everyone dies. Was Tywin expendable or was he a big part of major plot lines. You know it is over for all the characters at some point, at some point the series will end and that is the end of them.

[Stannis's birthright]

Little Finger is being summoned back to Kings Landing by Cersi. While the Faith is grabing more power . This doesn't sound like good news for Littlefinger the brothel owner

[Lord Damian]

Little Finger is being summoned back to Kings Landing by Cersi. While the Faith is grabing more power . This doesn't sound like good news for Littlefinger the brothel owner

He will slime his way out of it. I think he will certainly head back to Winterfell before the end of the season. I think he is the "old friend" that Sansa is supposed to confront in episode 8 I think. I think he will be at the wedding.

[SayGen]

I was thinking the old friend was reek/theon.

[erasmus]

Summary of the Winterfell-related bits from the 5x05 promo:

-Ramsay presumably fucking Myranda up against a window

-Sansa staring up at something from the ground (maybe Ramsay fucking Myranda?)

-Ramsay shooting a creepy glance at Sansa while they're both seated

-Sansa striding swiftly through what looks like a series of cells, looking worried

-Theon recoiling at something or someone in darkness

Thoughts?

all of the above, plus Ramsay throwing Myranda from that window and scaring the s*** out of Sansa.

[hallam]

Finally, it seems hilarious to me that given that D&D know Sansa's endgame, some fans have been complaining at length about Sansa being marginalized in the show and D&D being seemingly uninterested in her character development, while simultaneously loudly protesting that Sansa is incredibly important to the books and is a central character in the endgame. There's some real cognitive dissonance going on there. Perhaps they should take the hint.

GRRM has already given the plot reveal for Sansa in Book/Season 1 when Lady is killed.

The direwolves are the biggest plot reveals in the show. We are told that Ned is going to be killed by a Baratheon (the stag kills the direwolf mother). The girls are going to be separated from their houses (Lady killed, Nymeria lost).

Sansa does have a way back to the Starks because Bran's wolf Summer can find her. Bran has no need to be physically close to Summer, indeed it is irrelevant now so long as there is a godswood close enough.

It is pretty clear that Sansa was never intended to be a major character, her main function is to provide someone for Arya to contrast with. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have any role at all. I suspect she is the person who ends up doing in Baelish after finding out he was the person who betrayed her father and set the whole war in motion.

[MMOWarrior]

Summary of the Winterfell-related bits from the 5x05 promo:

-Ramsay presumably fucking Myranda up against a window

-Sansa staring up at something from the ground (maybe Ramsay fucking Myranda?)

-Ramsay shooting a creepy glance at Sansa while they're both seated

-Sansa striding swiftly through what looks like a series of cells, looking worried

-Theon recoiling at something or someone in darkness

Thoughts?

Bear in mind that the messed-up scene alluded to by Alfie Allen was supposed to happen midseason or thereabouts. Judging from the 5x05 promo, it looks like 5x05 is a big Winterfell episode, so this could be the episode in question.

I'm more worried about Pod and Brienne..

I think Ramsay is smart enough to leave Sansa alone.. but forcing her to watch while he dispatches her protector I can see..

[nationalanthem91]

I was thinking the old friend was reek/theon.

I don't think so. In either the episode 6/7 promo, it says something along the lines of "Sansa tries to talk to Theon", and then in episode 8, it mentions her "confronting an old friend". Surely if her and Theon were to interact again, they'd use his name? Besides, I don't rink he'd be considered an "old friend", at least to her.

I don't know, I'm just talking to talk now. If it isn't him, I wonder who it could be? The synopsis uses the word "confront", so it sounds like Sansa isn't planning on being civil with this person.

[Grail King]

He will slime his way out of it. I think he will certainly head back to Winterfell before the end of the season. I think he is the "old friend" that Sansa is supposed to confront in episode 8 I think. I think he will be at the wedding.

Sansa doesn't consider him an old friend, the devil you know isn't a friend to me.

I think, it will be either: Pod, the Hound ( he is left dangling last season ), Theon or Jeyne Poole!

[Colonel Green]

Sansa doesn't consider him an old friend, the devil you know isn't a friend to me.

I think, it will be either: Pod, the Hound ( he is left dangling last season ), Theon or Jeyne Poole!

The Hound is confirmed not to be in this season. Jeyne Poole isn't an actual character (some extra in the pilot does not count for anything), and hasn't been cast. Pod, I guess, but I'm not sure what she'd "confront" him about. I think it's pretty clearly Theon.

[Mithras]

I don't think so. In either the episode 6/7 promo, it says something along the lines of "Sansa tries to talk to Theon", and then in episode 8, it mentions her "confronting an old friend". Surely if her and Theon were to interact again, they'd use his name? Besides, I don't rink he'd be considered an "old friend", at least to her.

I don't know, I'm just talking to talk now. If it isn't him, I wonder who it could be? The synopsis uses the word "confront", so it sounds like Sansa isn't planning on being civil with this person.

"Sansa tries to talk to Theon" but she cannot get past Reek. Then, she finally cracks the shell and confronts the old friend (Theon).

Bran is the person who brought Theon back at that monumental kneeling before the heart tree moment. It seems that the show will give that role to Sansa in the absence of Bran.

[lenniegroove]

I'm more worried about Pod and Brienne..

I think Ramsay is smart enough to leave Sansa alone.. but forcing her to watch while he dispatches her protector I can see..

Or worse yet, the situation forces her to betray them to the Boltons - either for self-preservation, or because she wants to protect someone else (Theon), or because it furthers her revenge plans. What would be more player-esque than that?

Does anybody remember the scope of Sansa and Pod's interaction during seasons 2 and 3? Do we have any reason to think Sansa is fond of him? It's been too long for me to remember.