[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XV - The stories of Bael(ish)

[lenniegroove]

But I seriously doubt that Sansa will kill, or even assist, in such a thing as murdering a woman with child. It is so against her nature, old or new. She might see it, or Ramsay may tell her himself. She might poison a Bolton, or betray a LF, but that would be it for her character if she crossed the line into woman and child murderous. Even if she is a Frey. It's the two Bolton men who deserve her revenge. Again, just MHO.

Agreed. It could also be that she sets the events in motion that result in such a murder... that would be an interesting parallel to her setting in motion the events that resulted in Ned's death.

[Colonel Green]

that would be an interesting parallel to her setting in motion the events that resulted in Ned's death.

That didn't happen in the show (without getting into the whole debate around that in the books).

[El Guapo]

I agree the scene above, specifically, is unlikely. But I do think it's possible that she tries to manipulate Ramsay against his father and stepmother in a way that gets out of hand (i.e., Ramsey kills Walda in a brutal way). Maybe he does it to impress Sansa? It would fit in with the comments by Turner/Rheon/Allen about a traumatic scene (assuming all three are talking about the same scene!). And it could easily happen off-camera, while we are looking at Theon's reaction - that might explain Allen's comment, "I bear witness to this thing, and it’s crazy, sort of having to portray how messed up everyone’s situation is through my own reactions to what happens."

Of course, it may be that Walda's pregnancy drives the Ramsay/Roose narrative in some other way, but is not related directly to the traumatic scene in question. But it's worth noting that in the books, Roose speculates that Ramsay will probably kill his children with Walda - i.e., this idea isn't coming out of nowhere. (Granted, in the books Roose seems incredibly blase about this possibility.) Moreover, Ramsay has a MOTIVE to kill Walda's child, and arguably Walda herself.

Finally, this is something that helps square the circle between Sophie's traumatic scene and her comment that Sansa "plays it out very differently this time compared to before. She tries to take command and begins to manipulate the people who are keeping her prisoner – which is nice." Of course, it could also be that she manipulates them, and eventually it backfires on her in a deadly way. I do not, however, get that vibe from the interviews she has given about this season. We shall see.

This I can definitely agree with and I can see happening, especially given Sophie's comments about manipulating her "captors".

[ADanceWithCats]

You know, Sansa could take a cue from Lady Mac Beth and start hinting at Ramsay that Walda's kid stands in her way to Winterfell. And her aunt recently suffered an unhappy accident... and her exfiance in King's Landing.... and here is where her brother fell...

Ramsay to Myranda: "You're boring."

[Lord Damian]

You know, Sansa could take a cue from Lady Mac Beth and start hinting at Ramsay that Walda's kid stands in her way to Winterfell. And her aunt recently suffered an unhappy accident... and her exfiance in King's Landing.... and here is where her brother fell...

Ramsay to Myranda: "You're boring."

Ramsay in turn has Myranda and her two bitches do the dirty work as Ramsay cannot afford to be caught.

[Grail King]

Ramsay in turn has Myranda and her two bitches do the dirty work as Ramsay cannot afford to be caught.

That would be soooooo gooooooodddddddd .

[Lord Damian]

That would be soooooo gooooooodddddddd .

It would fit, would it not? Reek is Ramsay's igor and personal servant, he cannot be caught either. Myranda would be essentually threatened into doing so and could easily take the fall for it if need be. Also, I do not know if it would come into play but Lord Walder Frey might not like her untimely death.

[Colonel Green]

Yeah, at this point I think it's reasonably likely she's in all 10, though she may miss episode 9, depending on how they divvy up the finale -- but then, given the prominence of Winterfell, probably not.

[Arplus Elisjay]

Sansa may trick Ramsay into thinking that Walda's kid is a threat, but isn't he already legitimized by Roose? A better "Ramsay destroys his family" plot would be Sansa talking Ramsay into killing ROOSE so that he could gain his inheritance.

[Colonel Green]

Has any character been in all 10 episodes Before?

Cersei and Joffrey in season 1 (oddly), Tyrion in season 2.

I expect there will be a number of characters this season who are in all ten, including both Cersei and Tyrion.

[Lord Damian]

Sansa will be in all 10 episodes I bet. The wedding will almost certainly be in the last 2 episodes. This is where the vast magority of viewer interest is, no doubt. It still sickens me with dread that She is in this situation. writting about it in the forums with all of you helps deal with it. Thanks for putting up with me on that, all of you.

[Lord Damian]

Sansa will be in all 10 episodes I bet. The wedding will almost certainly be in the last 2 episodes. This is where the vast magority of viewer interest is, no doubt. It still sickens me with dread that She is in this situation. writting about it in the forums with all of you helps deal with it. Thanks for putting up with me on that, all of you.

[lenniegroove]

Sansa may trick Ramsay into thinking that Walda's kid is a threat, but isn't he already legitimized by Roose? A better "Ramsay destroys his family" plot would be Sansa talking Ramsay into killing ROOSE so that he could gain his inheritance.

Well, he could conclude that Roose might bump him off and replace him with Son-of-Walda. It's not an unreasonable worry. (But your point is well-taken.)

[Colonel Green]

Or Roose could have his legitimization rescinded.

[Stonehearted Snake]

Or Roose could have his legitimization rescinded.

I've been wondering about that. I don't remember if that was something done in the books or in the snow.

[Tadco26]

I still don't understand Littlefinger's plan. He tells Sansa this is her chance for revenge, and that Stannis is going to come thru and capture Winterfell and make her Wardeness of the North... So why give her to Ramsay rather than just sending her straight to Stannis? A rescued Sansa is not a bargaining chip for Littlefinger, and if he sent her to Stannis then the north would rally around her and make throwing the Boltons out much easier.

Of course that ignores the fact that there is no reason Littlefinger would want Stannis to be on the Iron Throne. He betrayed Ned primarily because Ned insisted on crowning Stannis, but now he is counting on Stannis winning and legitimizing Sansa as wardeness of the north, a title that will only have meaning if Stannis wins? That makes no sense.

Maybe Littlefinger doesn't send Sansa to Stannis because he wants to see who wins first. If that was his concern he should just wait to see who wins before he sends her to anyone. What can the Boltons really offer Littlefinger in return for Sansa? They don't even have the north secured yet. The story line just doesn't make much sense even if we completely ignore what happens in the books.

[Arplus Elisjay]

Hedge -

I think the third paragraph of your last post answers your concern in the first two paragraphs. Littlefinger simply doesn't have faith that Stannis will win, by leaving her with the Boltons, Sansa is best positioned to "win" regardless of the result of the battle. If Sansa was with Stannis, and Stannis lost, LF gains nothing.

So why not just wait for the battle to end? Speculation is all we have on that count. I think he might have been aware that Cersei was going to summon him back to KL, or perhaps he was in a hurry for another reason. Not sure.

[Tadco26]

If Stannis wins then Littlefinger gains nothing. It will be common knowledge that LF set up the wedding with the Boltons, so now Stannis is going to reward him? For what?

Realistically news of LF's rather public delivery of Sansa to Winterfell would be reaching King's Landing by the time LF returns there, assuming Qyburn has even the most rudimentary of spy networks in comparison to the books.

Which means the Lannisters should know he betrayed them before the winner of Stannis vs Boltons happens.

It also ignores that giving Stannis Sansa would drastically increase Stannis's odds by winning him the north, and the show already set it up so that Stannis out numbers the Boltons. Remember in the show Stannis has already secured the backing of the Iron Bank, so his armies should be much stronger than the books.

If Stannis looses then Sansa isn't going to trust LF any more. It's already a huge stretch to say Sansa would marry a Bolton, it's an unbelieveable stretch to say she would do it, have LF's plan fail and still be an asset for LF, so Stannis losing is about the same as Sansa dying for LF.

So really there is no logical benefits and there are a ton of logical problems created by LF's decision.

[Lord Damian]

If Stannis wins then Littlefinger gains nothing. It will be common knowledge that LF set up the wedding with the Boltons, so now Stannis is going to reward him? For what?

Realistically news of LF's rather public delivery of Sansa to Winterfell would be reaching King's Landing by the time LF returns there, assuming Qyburn has even the most rudimentary of spy networks in comparison to the books.

Which means the Lannisters should know he betrayed them before the winner of Stannis vs Boltons happens.

It also ignores that giving Stannis Sansa would drastically increase Stannis's odds by winning him the north, and the show already set it up so that Stannis out numbers the Boltons. Remember in the show Stannis has already secured the backing of the Iron Bank, so his armies should be much stronger than the books.

If Stannis looses then Sansa isn't going to trust LF any more. It's already a huge stretch to say Sansa would marry a Bolton, it's an unbelieveable stretch to say she would do it, have LF's plan fail and still be an asset for LF, so Stannis losing is about the same as Sansa dying for LF.

So really there is no logical benefits and there are a ton of logical problems created by LF's decision.

I think Littlefinger will hope both sides beat each other to a pulp, then Littlefinger's Vale forces clean what is left of BOTH forces. I am sure due to his past dealings with the iron Bank, they would back him as the best choice to return their investment and the best reward will be he will have Sansa in Winterfell and a better strategic Stronghold in Winterfell. However, Littlefinger does not know of Bran and Rickon being alive and that could thwart his plans. When Sansa told Littlefinger in the crypt "when I see you again, I will be a married woman", I read his look to mean, yes and it is me who you will be marrying.

Ps - If after all this and things go as I just stated and Sansa walks back in step with Littlefinger, I will fucking throw up.

[TheCasualObserver]

I think Littlefinger will hope both sides beat each other to a pulp, then Littlefinger's Vale forces clean what is left of BOTH forces. I am sure due to his past dealings with the iron Bank, they would back him as the best choice to return their investment and the best reward will be he will have Sansa in Winterfell and a better strategic Stronghold in Winterfell. However, Littlefinger does not know of Bran and Rickon being alive and that could thwart his plans. When Sansa told Littlefinger in the crypt "when I see you again, I will be a married woman", I read his look to mean, yes and it is me who you will be marrying.

Ps - If after all this and things go as I just stated and Sansa walks back in step with Littlefinger, I will fucking throw up.

That sounds much more like LF's style. But it still doesn't explain why Sansa's presence in Winterfell needed to occur before Stannis and Roose bled each other. If anything, her sudden appearance after a pyhrric victory for Stannis or Roose could potentially have more impact if her opponents have already been weakened and are more susceptible to the dangers of a true Stark in the North. I'm still calling BS on this entire storyline until I get more information on LF's motives and why supposedly "Dark Sansa" is still going along with this.

And of course, if LF really does want Sansa for a wife, pushing her into Ramsay's arms before he marries her himself is another tangle of crazy to be unpicked.