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Stannis and Shireen [book spoilers]


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While this is a great scene, does anybody else also get the feeling that book Stannis does not really view Shireen in this way?



1. Stannis is uncomfortable around women in general - not just Selyse, but every woman, hammered home in ADwD (his interactions with Asha and Alysane) - and this should thus also include Shireen.



2. Stannis never speaks kindly or affectionate of Shireen in the books, and never spends time with her. She isn't shut away as she is in the series, but there is also no Selyse hatred of Shireen in the books. In fact, Selyse's one redeeming quality is her love for her only child. She cares for her, raises her, and spends time with her, not Stannis.



3. Shireen is Stannis' Heir Presumptive in the books, but nothing suggests that he actually wants her to succeed him. It is custom/law that she succeeds him should Stannis die without a legitimate son, especially since there aren't any legitimate male Targaryen-Baratheon branches left - which would be why he proclaims her heir, but that doesn't mean he likes or loves her all that much.


Rhaenyra was at Viserys' side from a very early on (five years) whereas Shireen is already elven years old in 300 AC and never spends one moment at Stannis' side as his heir, learning how to rule. He dumped her with Selyse at Eastwatch, after all. He shouldn't necessarily drag her to war but she should have been present at this council meetings on Dragonstone if she was to be his successor.



Of course, Kerry Ingram's smart and nerdy Shireen is a much more interesting character than book Shireen who is essentially just a sad and depressed girl left to her own devices, but I don't think that this intimate moment the show gave us there - while being very touching - does really reflect the Stannis-Shireen relationship as it is presented in the books (which is either non-existant at all or as unimportant to George that he never cared to explore it).



Any thoughts on that?


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My one instance of Stannis' fatherly feelings in the books I'd point out is that he tasked his men to, even if he dies, to keep fighting the war and put his daughter on the throne at all costs.


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Stannis doesn't show his emotions, that doesn't mean he doesn't have them.



It's not just that he keeps Patchface around. He keeps him because he was a gift from his parents. They died while bringing him home to him, so he could laugh. And he let Shireen have around that one only thing he got from his parents. Of course he cares about her.

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My one instance of Stannis' fatherly feelings in the books I'd point out is that he tasked his men to, even if he dies, to keep fighting the war and put his daughter on the throne at all costs.

Yep, considering that chapter is destined to be probably before the battle of Winterfell. Who knows what will happen to her.

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My one instance of Stannis' fatherly feelings in the books I'd point out is that he tasked his men to, even if he dies, to keep fighting the war and put his daughter on the throne at all costs.

That isn't necessarily a fatherly feeling, instead simply she is his heir and if they just stop after he dies it makes all of his actions worth nothing.

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That isn't necessarily a fatherly feeling, instead simply she is his heir and if they just stop after he dies it makes all of his actions worth nothing.

Not necessarily, no, but a nice touch.

There are probably better examples but I haven't read through the books in a while so I'm rusty.

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I don't think either of them would act the way they did. Shireen isn't as mature in the books, I doubt she'd be back chatting Melisandre, keeping secrets from Selyse, or wondering about her father's love for her. I doubt Stannis would have a big monologue about it as well, more likely he'd just say "What? Of course not" and that'd be that.





My one instance of Stannis' fatherly feelings in the books I'd point out is that he tasked his men to, even if he dies, to keep fighting the war and put his daughter on the throne at all costs.




Yep. He also keeps Patchface around for Shireen's sake, shows more anger towards Alester for trying to sell Shireen off than anything else he did, is aware of Shireen's friendship with Edric and that she'd be heartbroken if she died, and points out that he has a duty to her, personally, to take the throne. There's obviously some affection there.


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A few others have pointed out various scenes in the book that show Stannis affection for his daughter. For a character who isn't a first person chapter character, and doesn't really talk all that much/ see his intimate private life, the moments where Shireen is mentioned or a topic of discussion his reactions, actions, and things he says seem to imply he cares about her more then most people.

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Shireen is put quite a lot in the focus of attention in the show, thus she will play a bigger part in what is to come.


Like many others I think that Mel and/or Selyse will try to burn her as a sacrifice, they will not succeed, Stannis


will find out and that will be the end of the Stannis-Mel-Selyse constellation.


Personally, I cannot wait to see how it plays out


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Stannis telling Justin Massey to seat Shireen on the Iron Throne should he really die is something he has to say if he discusses his death at all. He does not have another heir, after all.



That does not mean he likes his daughter all that much or that he feels close to her. It would be great if this was the case, but my impression from the books is that this is not the case. While Stannis is not a POV, and thus there are restrictions to how he's portrayed in the books, it would be actually quite easy for George to insert Stannis' affection for Shireen in the book - say, by Stannis talking about her or by her being present when her father holds council, etc. If Stannis loved his daughter one would think he'll would want to spend time with her.



Note that Selyse and Shireen were kept on Dragonstone throughout Stannis' time as Master of Ships prior to AGoT (Stannis only visited the island once or twice a year to face Selyse in battle bed. Shireen was raised on Dragonstone and developed her greyscale there. Had Stannis kept Selyse and his young child at court I imagine she would never have gotten greyscale considering that the child version is an affliction you get at cold, damp places...



Keeping Patchface alive is also no decision Stannis made. Cressen convinced the castellan of Storm's End - most likely Stannis' grand-uncle, Lord Ormund Baratheon's younger brother - to keep Patches alive after he washed up ashore. Later on nothing suggests that Patches life was ever in danger. Whatever the hell convinced Stannis to take Patchface with him to Dragonstone after the Conquest, and make him/allow him to become the best friend of his only child later on is beyond me. Perhaps Patches provided Stannis with some sort of absurd solace/determination throughout the Siege of Storm's End? But Patches and Shireen only became close after Shireen's birth on Dragonstone.



Stannis not wanting Shireen to marry Tommen could actually be a sign that he cares for her, personally, but it is as likely - or even more likely - that he just doesn't want that his daughter falls in the hands of his enemies/is mistreated by them/married to an incest-born bastard. And Stannis feeling a duty to Shireen to take the throne seems to refer to his duty complex rather than to Shireen personally. Yes, Shireen's well-being sort of depends on Stannis winning the war, but it is not that Shireen wants to be queen or even a princess. And Stannis surely could have reached an understanding with the Lannisters/Renly/whoever early in the war to keep his lands and titles if he had not pushed his own claim for the throne. He is actually endangering his daughter's life with his campaign.



If he really wanted Shireen to succeed him he would not have been so eager to name Renly his heir during their parley, and he would clearly try to prepare her for the duty that lies ahead of her - especially in light of her father's premature and sudden death in battle. But unfortunately nothing suggests that this is the case. Yes, she certainly could not yet lead an army in battle. But if Shireen was present at her father's council and publicly treated as his chosen heir, her succession would go much easier in Stannis' camp, and it would be more easier for her to participate in her own council/government after she is proclaimed queen as Stannis' council-men would be accustomed to her asking questions and stating her opinion on matters.



The problem with TV Selyse and Shireen seems to come mostly from the fact that both Shireen and Selyse were absent/non-existent in season 2. Selyse's hatred of her daughter seems to be only an explanation for Shireen being absent in season 2, there is no real reason for that (and this whole thing has been only made more complicated in the show by the writers actually giving us the impression in the Mel-Stannis talk in season 2 that Stannis does not have any children).



Selyse/Mel pushing for Shireen's sacrificial death would be greatly at odds with anything book Selyse/Mel would do (after all, Mel actually cares to keep Devan Seaworth alive, she would most likely not trying to convince Stannis or Selyse to kill their only child), thus my guess is that this will either turn out to be a red herring or leading nowhere. However, the greyscale thing is going to become important. Not only has the show included Shireen's disfigurement but also provided us with an explanation - both greyscale as a sickness and the stone men are in the show now, and it is very likely that Shireen and Jon Connington will start a grey plague epidemic in Westeros in the books. And if Shireen's life is threatened by the disease I imagine book Selyse and Melisandre should go to great lengths to save her rather than killing or burning her - especially if this happens while Stannis is presumed death. With Shireen dead, too, his cause would surely die then. And Selyse and her uncle could actually hope to rule/acquire power through Queen Shireen - power they don't have under King Stannis.



Considering that the show seems to change locations - Jon marching to Hardhome, indicated by the title 'Hardhome', and Mel apparently accompanying Stannis to wherever he is going to march - I imagine Selyse and Shireen could go with them, too.


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In the books,we see Stannis only through PoV of Davos,Mel,Jon,Asha. What goes on between Stannis and Shireen is a private family matter these people will never see. But it clearly makes sense that Stannis must have done something to make sure Shireen did not suffer from Greyscale,I think this scene fits really well with their characters and we a re lucky to get this personal point of view in the show,same as we got Robb's PoV.


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I thought that Show Shireen and Show Selyse were only introduced as important characters after D&D had their big chat with GRRM about the end game. If that's right then it kind of indicates that Shireen in the books is important enough to Stannis that his arc can't work without her.


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:dunno: He's a soldier, not a monster. Though show Stannis is more... normal? Book Stannis would be baffled by the question, I think. "Of course I am not ashamed, you sprang from my loins, did you not?"


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Well what do you want that Stannis goes camping with her? He is a war time King/General in medieval era with multiple enemies and all odds stack against him oh and dont forget apocalyptic others who he think is his duty to fight for survival of mankind. That doesn't mean he doesn't love his child. He is not very emotional with his love for Shireen but Stannis and emotions are two very distant things. And since he has no pov no one can say what goes through his mind when he is in sitting alone in his room or tower. As for why Shireen is not present in his council meetings, Stannis is a man who prefers merit over nobility and birth and he might think war councils are no place for children. The closest pov character to Stannis' personality imo is Victarion Greyjoy minus stupidity.

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Stannis has nothing in common with Victarion. Victarion is a warrior and Stannis is not (at least not in the books).



I never said that Stannis should drag Shireen with him to war- although that might sense from a certain POV, too, if he had huge army and men protecting her - and I'm aware of the fact that Stannis wouldn't have had many opportunities to present Shireen as his heir.



But she could have been with him at council during ACoK and ASoS. And he could have called her to his side at Castle Black immediately after his victory over Mance to continue her training. He chose to do neither. If Shireen was very much on Stannis' mind, and if he actually wanted to succeed her, one should assume he would also want to prepare her for that role - especially in light of the fact that she might have to take up his torch sooner rather than later should he die in battle/during the war. Both from a 'loving father angle' as well as from a 'dynastical viewpoint' Stannis' treatment of Shireen doesn't make much sense.



And this whole 'ashamed thing/question' is a show thing, too. Book Shireen just had an illness as a child that disfigured her. That did not lead her to be considered unclean, a disappointment, a person that brings shame on you. Which means this whole angle of Stannis liking Shireen while Selyse is hating her isn't there in the books. Selyse cares for Shireen as a mother while Stannis never once interacted with her in the books. That's the (sad) fact.


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In all honesty i believe Stannis is a soldier/General with righteous personality who is charged to become King due to circumstances and honour. He may not be a macho warrior like victarion but he is best General in westeros, and all his greatest accomplishments are on field of battle and has even defeated victarion at sea who himself is a great naval admiral. The reason i compared Stannis with Victarion is because they both have silent personalities in the outside but since we have victarion's POV we know about his feelings about killing his wife. I doubt anyone would have thought more of victarion than dumb but good naval commander. Same way i believe Stannis has internal feelings too which are not displayed in open.

As for why shireen was not called to to castle black immediately after wildings were defeated because as name suggest east watch is a sea port where as castle black is in middle of nowhere in middle of war. It is far easier to escape fron east watch by a ship in case of an ambush and attack then it is at castle black. He did call them eventually when all things were sorted and knew he can trust Jon and they were preparing to go to night fort last we saw them.

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Stannis keeps Patchface around who is a brain damaged jester who constantly drives him mad with his gibberish. The Jester was the last gift his parents gave to him before dying. He then gave it to Shireen.



Beneath Stannis's rigid cold demeanour is a man with a big heart. I found this scene very in character. Look back at some of the scenes with him and Davos. He struggles to comfort Davos when he hears his son died but you can tell he liked the boy a lot.


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