Stannis and Shireen [book spoilers]

[Antler's Fury]

While this is a great scene, does anybody else also get the feeling that book Stannis does not really view Shireen in this way?

1. Stannis is uncomfortable around women in general - not just Selyse, but every woman, hammered home in ADwD (his interactions with Asha and Alysane) - and this should thus also include Shireen.

Shireen isn't a woman, she's a girl, and a blood relative. It seems like Stannis' awkwardness has to do with women that he doesn't know very well (Asha, Alysane, Sybelle Glover, Catelyn) or are unpleasant (Selyse). Notably, it does not seem to extend to Melisandre, with whom he has a very close relationship that extends to a sexual relationship. It's not reasonable to assume that he'd automatically be uncomfortable around Shireen.

2. Stannis never speaks kindly or affectionate of Shireen in the books, and never spends time with her. She isn't shut away as she is in the series, but there is also no Selyse hatred of Shireen in the books. In fact, Selyse's one redeeming quality is her love for her only child. She cares for her, raises her, and spends time with her, not Stannis.

We don't know this. We always see Stannis from the perspective of Davos or Jon, neither of whom would be present if Stannis was indeed spending time with Shireen. While it's true that Stannis doesn't speak affectionately or kindly of Shireen, he doesn't speak affectionately of anybody, really. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about anyone. For instance, Stannis is constantly griping about how Robert slighted him and was better than him at everything, yet he also admits that he still loved Robert.

Rhaenyra was at Viserys' side from a very early on (five years) whereas Shireen is already elven years old in 300 AC and never spends one moment at Stannis' side as his heir, learning how to rule. He dumped her with Selyse at Eastwatch, after all. He shouldn't necessarily drag her to war but she should have been present at this council meetings on Dragonstone if she was to be his successor.

Do you have the quote that says the age that Rhaenrya was when she sat on Viserys' councils? I can't find anything in the Princess and the Queen, the Rogue Prince, or WOIAF that says anything about her being five years old when she started sitting on his councils. Furthermore Stannis' councils are almost completely devoted to military matters, whether it is his job as Master of Ships, or later on during the war when he's plotting his various military strategies. Shireen is an eleven year old girl still learning about Daeron's Conquest of Dorne, which suggest that Stannis is interested in teaching her about military strategy, but she's only just started learning. Could she really comprehend the complexities of military strategy at such a young age without even having mastered the basics?

If Stannis loved his daughter one would think he'll would want to spend time with her. Note that Selyse and Shireen were kept on Dragonstone throughout Stannis' time as Master of Ships prior to AGoT (Stannis only visited the island once or twice a year to face Selyse in battle bed.

This is not unusual, even among parents who are open about their affection for their kids. Davos leaves his youngest kids, aged 7 and 10/11 at home on Cape Wrath with their mother. Does that mean he doesn't care about them?

Shireen was raised on Dragonstone and developed her greyscale there. Had Stannis kept Selyse and his young child at court I imagine she would never have gotten greyscale considering that the child version is an affliction you get at cold, damp places...

This doesn't seem a fair criticism to me. Stannis had no reason to suspect that Dragonstone would be susceptible to greyscale; the Targaryens had lived there fore 300 years and never had a single case of the disease. The Stormlands are also cold and wet by definition. Would you blame Davos if his sons Stannis and Steffon caught greyscale in his absence?

Whatever the hell convinced Stannis to take Patchface with him to Dragonstone after the Conquest, and make him/allow him to become the best friend of his only child later on is beyond me. Perhaps Patches provided Stannis with some sort of absurd solace/determination throughout the Siege of Storm's End? But Patches and Shireen only became close after Shireen's birth on Dragonstone.

Patchface is a living reminder of the time when Stannis' parents died in front of him. He didn't have to keep this creepy clown around, especially considering that he banned laughter on Dragonstone. Yet he does it, because Patchface makes Shireen happy. It's also important to note that one of his reasons for initially refusing to kill Edric is that Shireen likes him, which suggest a concern for her happiness.

Stannis not wanting Shireen to marry Tommen could actually be a sign that he cares for her, personally, but it is as likely - or even more likely - that he just doesn't want that his daughter falls in the hands of his enemies/is mistreated by them/married to an incest-born bastard.

The Lannisters would not be enemies if Alester's peace deal was agreed upon. Indeed, Tommen is, by all accounts, a nice child and an appropriate political match; given that Shireen is a sad, disfigured girl, one could argue that Stannis is actually getting a better deal than the Lannisters are. However, Stannis' biggest problem with the match is not Tommen's station or even his family but with the boy himself, specifically that he is a bastard born of incest and therefore unacceptable breeding material for his trueborn child. This suggests that he thinks Shireen, disfigured and melancholy though she is, is too good for Tommen. Indeed, we see this again when Stannis objects to a proposed match between Shireen and Robert Arryn, again not because of the boy's station or even his pedigree, which is ostensibly more than appropriate, but because he is weak and sickly, and therefore not good enough for Shireen on a personal level.

And Stannis surely could have reached an understanding with the Lannisters/Renly/whoever early in the war to keep his lands and titles if he had not pushed his own claim for the throne. He is actually endangering his daughter's life with his campaign.

This still doesn't indicate a lack of affection. Literally every major participant in the war is endangering their beloved family members by fighting instead of compromising.

If he really wanted Shireen to succeed him he would not have been so eager to name Renly his heir during their parley, and he would clearly try to prepare her for the duty that lies ahead of her - especially in light of her father's premature and sudden death in battle.

First you say that Stannis is risking Shireen's life by fighting, which supposedly indicates a lack of affection for her, and then you say that his offer to make Renly heir indicates a lack of affection for Shireen. Well, which is it? One could argue that Stannis' apparent willingness to sacrifice his and Shireen's legal rights to keep all of the remaining family members alive indicates affection for both Shireen and Renly.

But if Shireen was present at her father's council and publicly treated as his chosen heir, her succession would go much easier in Stannis' camp, and it would be more easier for her to participate in her own council/government after she is proclaimed queen as Stannis' council-men would be accustomed to her asking questions and stating her opinion on matters.

Considering that Shireen is Stannis' only heir, I don't see how the succession would be complicated.

which is either non-existant at all or as unimportant to George that he never cared to explore it

The latter seems to be the best explanation. That said, the show's depiction of Stannis as a stiff individual who feels affection towards his daughter but finds displaying it difficult and awkward seems plausible given what we have seen of him in the books.

[clawson24]

Claiming this scene as "out of character" for either Stannis or Shireen is far too nitpicky, imo.

It was a beautiful scene (the best of the season in my opinion) and didn't contradict anything important that we know about either of the characters in either the books or the show. We have no real indications that Stannis doesn't love his daughter, we have a number of clues to indicate that he does, and in general there's nothing wrong with making TV Stannis slightly more affectionate anyway.

Had he been bawling his eyes out and braiding Shireen's hair I would've agreed it was taking things a bit far -- but instead we got a very moving, wonderfully portrayed scene which allowed Stannis to remain both stoic and a bit awkward while still proving that he cares.

[Lord Varys]

Antler's Fury,

1. I'd say that Stannis is still sort of awkward around Mel. He has an affair with her, but this is hushed up. Officially, she is his close adviser, not his official mistress and his adviser. And Stannis is never publicly showing any affection for her. There are subtle signs that he desires her - say, when she touches him, and he does not shy away - but I'm not sure he actually loves her, or has an uncomplicated relationship with her. For instance, he seems to be slightly irritated about Mel staying at the Wall but he does apparently not push the issue nor are there hints that he feels abandoned/wants her at his side.

The books don't allow us to speculate whether Stannis' 'women thing' extends to Shireen since they never talked once in a chapter. It may be the case, or not. I'd assume that it is somewhat more likely that he has the same issues with her than with other females.

2. I'd imagine that a father who loves his child would spend time with her. The fact that he apparently doesn't is a strong sign that he does not care all that much about her emotionally. For instance, Stannis seems to suffer from a very heavy depression after the Blackwater. He does not speak to anyone but Melisandre. The whole Florent affair is his fault since Lord Alester and Selyse end up running Dragonstone by default after he abandons his duty, and thus causes the Tommen-Shireen crisis.

3. As to Rhaenyra: I'm mistaken there. She was six years. Viserys I considers her his heir from the day he ascends the throne on 103 AC as he not grants Daemon the title of Prince of Dragonstone. Rhaenyra is six in 103, when he father becomes king, becomes a dragonrider at seven (104) and her father's cupbearer at eight when she is made Princess of Dragonstone (105). Shireen is eleven in 300 AC, and nine/ten in 298/299, and holds no official position at all at her father's court on Dragonstone.

And Shireen could learn a lot at council about politics, claims, the proper behavior/duty of a ruler, etc. The whole Celtigar episode could have been a powerful lesson for her as could have been Renly's treason.

4. Shireen was always Stannis' heir even before he claimed the Iron Throne. Thus it could have been valuable to keep at his side at court to prepare her for court life and her duties as Lady of Dragonstone after his death.

5. Davos is actually estranged from his younger sons due to his long absences. He is struggling very much with the letter he tries to write to them. Nothing suggests that Davos wants to be estranged from them (i.e. did not like them while he was around them) but the long absences estranged them. Stannis cannot have formed a bond with Shireen due to the fact that he was at KL for most of the time while she was growing up on the island. If you see your child only once or twice a year for a short period of time you aren't close to her. Her father must be a literal stranger to Shireen. [The show has it different, I think, as Stannis apparently lived on Dragonstone with Selyse and Shireen throughout the reign of Robert.]

6. Okay, Stannis is not guilty of the greyscale thing. But he hid his wife and child on his island instead of bringing them to court, and raising his daughter with Cersei's children. That was a mistake, I'd say. And it shows that he did not care about them - both of them! - being at his side or enjoying the comforts of court life.

On the other hand - I really think somebody should try to find out whether Shireen was always on Dragonstone during Robert's reign. Stannis could have brought her to court for a time.

7. The Patchface thing is that Stannis was given Dragonstone before Shireen was even born. He would not have kept him because of unborn Shireen, and Shireen would not have grown fond of him had he not been on Dragonstone when she was born. No idea if Stannis even liked Patches. Perhaps the fool effectively became Cressen's ward after he arrived at Storm's End, and accompanied him to Dragonstone, not Stannis. After he was there he eventually became Shireen's friend.

8. My line of thoughts in regards to the war and heir stuff: Stannis risked his daughter's life by rebelling/warring. But if Shireen's well-being was one of the reasons that drove him to that then it is very strange that he is actually willing to name Renly his heir in Shireen's place. He surely doesn't fight for the crown to place her on her head after his death...

In regards to the show Stannis comes off as the nice parents because TV Selyse hates her only child. That's not the case in the books. In the books I'd say Selyse is the one who actually cares for her child - she kisses her at one point, although on the non-greyscale cheek - whereas Stannis has yet to show any sign of genuine (i.e. non-dutiful) affection for her. Book Stannis is at best a distant father and at worst an uncaring father.

[Eucratides_Megas]

His daughter springs up more in his speech than people give him credit. At one point he tells Davos he owes it her to bring justice to Westeros. She was the very first person he mentions in that regard.

Book Stannis loves his daughter. That I've never doubted, just like he loves Davos and even Renly (witness his rage at Davos's supposed execution by Wyman Manderly or his regret and rumination on Renly's peach).

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Well since it seems like my own topic on the subject has been rejected, or is still sitting in moderator limbo, I'll just have to mention it here.

I'm thinking we all missed the most important part of Stannis's very touching scene with his daughter. Stannis tells us that he bought the infected doll from a trader out of Dorne, and that in addition to being made up in Baratheon colors, it was the only item worth having in a cargo hold loaded with junk. Sure, could this have just been an honest merchant trying to catch the eye of proud new papa Stannis. However, could this have been an early piece of Doran and Oberyn's revenge? After all, we know Oberyn traveled in Essos, and would have knowledge of the Grey plague and how it's spread, not to mention we know his skill with manipulating poisons. I don't think its too outlandish to think it was intentional.

[Antler's Fury]

I don't think its too outlandish to think it was intentional.

Doran doesn't hurt children.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Doran doesn't hurt children.

Oberyn seemed to have less qualms about such things, or at least his daughters do.

[Antler's Fury]

Oberyn seemed to have less qualms about such things, or at least his daughters do.

If Oberyn was as close to Doran as Doran claims, then he would never attempt something like this without Doran's permission. As far as the Sand Snakes are concerned, I doubt they have the means to do something like this. Furthermore, what would be the point? Stannis is the brother of the King whose father in law's bannerman killed Princess Elia and her kids. Hurting his daughter seems rather pointless as revenge.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

If Oberyn was as close to Doran as Doran claims, then he would never attempt something like this without Doran's permission. As far as the Sand Snakes are concerned, I doubt they have the means to do something like this. Furthermore, what would be the point? Stannis is the brother of the King whose father in law's bannerman killed Princess Elia and her kids. Hurting his daughter seems rather pointless as revenge.

My point about the sand snakes was only meant to show Oberyn and Doran didn't always see eye to eye on such matters, his daughters seem to think such would be in accordance with Oberyn's teachings. My understanding of Doran and Oberyn's relationship was that Oberyn did the dirty work while Doran ran interference, that he allowed his brother a certain amount of leeway as long as he could keep his own hands clean.

As far as a purpose, my understanding was also that Doran's revenge was about Robert too, not just Tywin, after all Doran has been making plans to depose him for more than a decade. It just happened that we don't actually meet him until Robert is already cold and dead. However, way back when,taking out one of Robert's most able battle commanders and a possible heir to the throne might have seemed a good idea, because if I'm right the greyscale was certainly meant to spread throughout the whole castle, not just Shireen.

[ValrianSunni]

Stannis has nothing in common with Victarion. Victarion is a warrior and Stannis is not (at least not in the books).

I never said that Stannis should drag Shireen with him to war- although that might sense from a certain POV, too, if he had huge army and men protecting her - and I'm aware of the fact that Stannis wouldn't have had many opportunities to present Shireen as his heir.

But she could have been with him at council during ACoK and ASoS. And he could have called her to his side at Castle Black immediately after his victory over Mance to continue her training. He chose to do neither. If Shireen was very much on Stannis' mind, and if he actually wanted to succeed her, one should assume he would also want to prepare her for that role - especially in light of the fact that she might have to take up his torch sooner rather than later should he die in battle/during the war. Both from a 'loving father angle' as well as from a 'dynastical viewpoint' Stannis' treatment of Shireen doesn't make much sense.

And this whole 'ashamed thing/question' is a show thing, too. Book Shireen just had an illness as a child that disfigured her. That did not lead her to be considered unclean, a disappointment, a person that brings shame on you. Which means this whole angle of Stannis liking Shireen while Selyse is hating her isn't there in the books. Selyse cares for Shireen as a mother while Stannis never once interacted with her in the books. That's the (sad) fact.

All these arguments seem to assume that the only way Stannis could show his love for Shireen would be to include her in council meetings. I think better proof of Stannis' regard for his daughter is that Davos knows him well and thinks that mentioning Shireen's friendship with Edric might sway Stannis. Davos believes that Stannis loves Shireen, so I believe it too.

Also, Shireen is well cared for and shows kindness to others, which at her age indicates that she has received love and kindness.

[Sultan of Westeros]

My point about the sand snakes was only meant to show Oberyn and Doran didn't always see eye to eye on such matters, his daughters seem to think such would be in accordance with Oberyn's teachings. My understanding of Doran and Oberyn's relationship was that Oberyn did the dirty work while Doran ran interference, that he allowed his brother a certain amount of leeway as long as he could keep his own hands clean.

As far as a purpose, my understanding was also that Doran's revenge was about Robert too, not just Tywin, after all Doran has been making plans to depose him for more than a decade. It just happened that we don't actually meet him until Robert is already cold and dead. However, way back when,taking out one of Robert's most able battle commanders and a possible heir to the throne might have seemed a good idea, because if I'm right the greyscale was certainly meant to spread throughout the whole castle, not just Shireen.

I believe Doran and Oberyn are above hurting children, otherwise they will be just like Tywin and Doran's conversation with Ellaria confirmed he would do no such thing. And Stannis was not Robert's heir at time of birth of Shireen because Joffrey would have been born by the time. And for the sake of argument even if it was assasination attempt Doran would not be so careless to use grey scale and Dornish trader because it spreads quickly and it could even spread back to dorne on return of trader.

The show is overcompensating mention of Dorne due to lack of any mention in first three season and even in season 4 dorne as a state was overshadowed by persona of red viper.

[H.P.]

You know what I really thought was the icing on the cake in this scene? When Shireen hugs Stannis and when Stannis hugs her back, he hesitates just a second or two, and when the counter-hug finally comes, it's very awkward and formal. He doesn't lean forward, he just sort of puts his arms on her back. Neat little touch by the show makers IMHO.