Where do we go from Here? (Spoilers Galore)

[Fragile Bird]

As a general rule, we are limited in our speculations about where the books are going because we don't wander into fan-fiction territory. Even though we are now all familiar with the idea the show will end up in the same place as the books, just using a different route, it seems to be fair to say we are deep into fan-fiction territory in the show. The 2 Ds are big fans, but their editing and combining of stories and characters is creating totally new story lines.

Where are they going to go with some of these stories?

Jaime and Bronn in Dorne. Back in Season 1 I would have asked you what you were smoking. What will they be up to by season's end? Will one or both of them be dead?

Sansa in Winterfell. My crystal ball shows me something different every time I look. What about yours? Oops, almost forgot, Brienne.

Loras arrested. Is he replacing all the other plots with the Kettleblacks? Do you see death for this sinner? How does this affect the plot line of Cersei and Margaery? Will they be locked up by the sparrows too? Or has that plot been abandoned?

Is Stannis going to Deepwood Motte in the show, or straight to Winterfell? The winter that catches up with them in the books hasn't shown up yet in the series.

And across the Narrow Sea - where oh where are we going across the sea? Is Selmy dead, or injured?* He's leading things after Dany flies away with Drogon in the books, are we eliminating that plot line? Is Tyrion going to show up with Varys and teach Dany how to fly a dragon?

And how about the Riverrun crowd?

My mind is exploding with endless possibilities. What is happening in your head?

ETA: *I see the mystery actor who was disappointed to find out he was alive in the books and dead in the show was the actor who plays Barristan, Ian McIhenney, when we all first assumed it was Mance Rayder, played by Ciaran Hinds. He's definitely dead as well.

[rocksniffer]

As a general rule, we are limited in our speculations about where the books are going because we don't wander into fan-fiction territory. Even though we are now all familiar with the idea the show will end up in the same place as the books, just using a different route, it seems to be fair to say we are deep into fan-fiction territory in the show. The 2 Ds are big fans, but their editing and combining of stories and characters is creating totally new story lines.

Where are they going to go with some of these stories?

Jaime and Bronn in Dorne. Back in Season 1 I would have asked you what you were smoking. What will they be up to by season's end? Will one or both of them be dead?

Sansa in Winterfell. My crystal ball shows me something different every time I look. What about yours? Oops, almost forgot, Brienne.

Loras arrested. Is he replacing all the other plots with the Kettleblacks? Do you see death for this sinner? How does this affect the plot line of Cersei and Margaery? Will they be locked up by the sparrows too? Or has that plot been abandoned?

Is Stannis going to Deepwood Motte in the show, or straight to Winterfell? The winter that catches up with them in the books hasn't shown up yet in the series.

And across the Narrow Sea - where oh where are we going across the sea? Is Selmy dead, or injured? He's leading things after Dany flies away with Drogon in the books, are we eliminating that plot line? Is Tyrion going to show up with Varys and teach Dany how to fly a dragon?

And how about the Riverrun crowd?

My mind is exploding with endless possibilities. What is happening in your head?

.... :devil:

these are good questions and i look forward to thinking up good responses...

[Lord Damian]

Yeah, they cut the iron Born, the Freys and the Riverlands, sent Brienne into the North, Got Sansa to play a whole host of rolls and sent her into the North, sent Jaime to Dorne (WTF) aged up Tommen and Myrcella for - Sex - appeal? Yeah, I wish I was a fly in GRRM's writting chamber. I bet he is pissed off as hell, even though, he has made a bunch of money.

[El Guapo]

Well they didn't really age up Myrcella since Nell Tiger Free is almost 2 years younger than Aimee Richardson.

[Daenerys_Is_Coming]

The TV show is pretty much fan fiction at this point, I don't think it's wrong for us to speculate/guess where it's going.

My two cents:

1. Bronn will end up in the Ser Arys role and die trying to save/protect Myrcella from the Sand Snakes and Ellaria. What they plan to do with Jamie mystifies me.

2. Sansa in Winterfell is essentially Jayne Poole. She'll get married, Ramsay will abuse her, and Reek (Theon) will help her escape during the Stannis attack.

3. Brienne .... oh, Breinne. I have no idea what fate awaits Brienne since she is so far off her book path, but she might be an integral part of the Reek/Sansa escape.

4. I think that Loras getting locked up replaces Margery getting locked up but I could be wrong. I don't think he'll die, in fact, I think that Cersei will be subjected to the walk of shame and Loras will be saved/rescued in some manner by Olena Tyrell.

5. I think Stannis has to make a stop in Deepwood Motte at some point to pick up Asha. If it's before or after Winterfell, I cn;t predict. We may not see Asha till next season?

6. Ser Barristan Badass is definitely dead :( The loss will cause Dany to reopen the fighting pits (in hope of creating peace) or maybe her plan is more developed, and she'll reopen the pits to get the Harpies into some kind of trap. I don't think we're going to get a wedding in Mereen, and (sadly) I think a Tyrion/Daario combo will replace Barristan. Dany will need someone to teach her Westerosi history. I also think that she'll still fly off on Drogon, leaving Mereen in Tyrion's hands. It seems like there's been a lot of foreshadowing from Vary about what a great leader Tyrion could be. Dany's Drogon flight will be the 9th episode climax.

7. Poor Riverrun. They're like a red headed stepchild. Left out of all the fun. I don't think we'll be seeing much happening there.

[Wethers]

3. Brienne .... oh, Breinne. I have no idea what fate awaits Brienne since she is so far off her book path, but she might be an integral part of the Reek/Sansa escape.

Maybe Brienne takes the place of Mors Crowfood, beating drums in the snowstorm outside Winterfell with a bunch of green boys (Pod), and eventually meeting up with Theon and Sansa after they jump the wall?

Pod seems like too much of an amiable idiot to replace Abel, but who knows.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Or since they mentioned a few things about spoilers, we are not seeing "new" SL's as much as we are seeing what will eventually happen.

I don't necessarily think it is fanfic as much as it is them picking up the pace to end the story. If they finish by S7 (that is what I heard), then they are shoving 4 books into 3 seasons. Even then if they expanded to 8 seasons, it is probably likely that some of the stuff we see in the show now, will play out in WoW or DoS. I personally will not be surprised once the series is finished to look back and say "oh well that is why they cut this and this out".

[Free Northman Reborn]

My musings:

The Show's biggest "fudging tool", is their total disregard for consistency in the size of Westeros. In other words, playing around with distances to speed up or slow down certain aspects of the plot. I can see them just totally disregard the Deepwood Motte plot, and having Stannis get caught in the snow on the way to Winterfell.

At the same time, they have a rider arriving with Littlefinger's message from the Eyrie in almost no time, Jaime and Bronn getting to Dorne in the blink of an eye, and Jorah sailing from Volantis to Meereen in a tiny open top fishing boat. This while Victarrion lost half his Iron Fleet on trying to duplicate that part of the voyage.

In any case, as far as the plot is concerned, a big fear of mine is that the Show is going the "Leigh Butler fantasy" route, with Jaime falling in love with Brienne. A ridiculous notion, in the books, but one which the Show seems to be hinting at with Jaime's wistful look at Tarth, and his cryptic comment of wanting to die in the arms of the woman he loves. I hope like hell he means Cersei in that reference.

Brienne seems to be the Terminator of the Show, along with Bronn who is probably the T-1000. Their skills are so ridiculously inflated by D&D, that they will likely both make it to the end game, and play major roles going forward. Brienne now seems destined to kill Stannis, and save Sansa. Heck, she may even become the Hooded Man in Winterfell.

The Show has now spoiled so much from the books. We now know that the entire Ironborn storyline is meaningless. As is Aegon's storyline. As is the entire Arriane storyline. Darkstar seems to not exist.

As for Arya and Sansa. I think the Show has revealed to us that their long awaited and tumultuous reunion will be at Winterfell, and not in the Eyrie, as I once thought.

The Show seems to have blown the entire Northern Conspiracy out the water, other than some random old lady saying the North remembers. The Dustins and Ryswells probably won't exist in the Show either.

Argh. This plot prediction post is fast turning into a "Rant and Rave without repercussion" post. So I will end it there for now.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, I don't think the show has spoiled anything. The show is not telling the same story as the books. A changed story isn't the same story. It may be based on the other story and share some content with the original story but it isn't the same story - that's why there are changes.

Now, the idea that the show could end up 'in the same place as the books just via a different route' is ridiculous to me. Character development is important there. The experience 'on the road' changes you. If you take a different road you are a different man/woman at your destination - if you ever arrive there - and it may make no sense for you to behave/act the way a person does who took a different road. Perhaps you don't even want to go where you originally wanted to go after you chose a different road?

This is why the Cersei-Jaime rape-scene in season 4 makes no sense whatsoever, and neither does the Jaime-Cersei reunion at the end of that season in light of the development of the TV Jaime in season 3 or the book characters (who are now officially out of the show I'd say).

It may be that the certain core storylines - like Dany arriving in Westeros or the Others attacking - will still be the same in books and show but the idea that the show can actually spoil much development for the books is ridiculous to me.

The show usually changes characters and their motivations a lot, and it also changes the plot itself. If they include/adapt actual TWoW chapters for this season we'd not be able to recognize them even if they were fitting the unpublished chapters perfectly (although that's actually impossible now for any plot line imaginable as there isn't any plot fitting the book story anymore).

And the idea that show and books might fit together in the end for the final battle or whatever makes no sense at all.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Lord Varys

Well, the Show makes it pretty clear that Euron is not getting the Iron Throne, for example. Seeing as he doesn't exist.

Similarly, Arriane is not the younger more beautiful queen, and she isn't ending up on the Iron Throne either, as queen to Aegon.

In the same vein, Aegon clearly isn't getting the Iron Throne, seeing as he doesn't exist.

Sansa is not setting up to be Lady of the Vale, and playing a role in the southron contest for the Iron Throne, seeing as Harry the Heir doesn't exist, and Sansa is now off in distant Winterfell, having just skipped the entire Vale plotline altogether.

Now sure, a lot of this might have been apparent to those of us who have studied the books in detail for many years. But it nevertheless is now spoiled for us, as the Show has basically just cut out unnecessary fat and jumped straight to points that the books were working towards much more slowly. And that is undeniably spoiling it for us book readers.

[Arkash]

Speculation for Jaime and Bronn in Dorne :

Episode 6 : Water Garden rescue and debacle. Bronn is killed by Hotah, Jaime is taken in custody after nearly being killed by Obara.

Episode 7 : Doran dispatches the Sand Snakes : Nym and Tyene to King's Landing, Obara who knows where, so they stop being a threat for his regime in Dorne.

Episode 9 : Doran releases Jaime and they discuss terms. Jaime leaves with Myrcella, Doran reveals to Trystane he has larger plans for him.

Episode 10 : Nymeria and Tyene are present in KL for the Walk of Shame.

[Lord Varys]

TFR,

or not. The show is not a condensed version of the books. It is changed and distorted version. I don't see that the show is only cutting 'unnecessary or unimportant subplots'. It is actively changing a lot of plot lines that seem to be important in the books (and didn't need to be changed in the show for monetary purposes, etc.). Say, had they not cast Hinds for Mance they could have kept the whole minstrel part of his character and could have subsequently made him Abel.

Non-existing show characters usually have a tremendous impact on events in the books, and the whole ripple effect changes in the show have for events are doubly true for the books. George hasn't yet concluded TWoW nor has he written ADoS. He may have outlines and destinations for his characters but should he come up with different solutions/better ideas the story and its ending will change. A huge climax wrapping everything up isn't going to be the same huge climax if half of the characters present there in the books won't be there in the show. Or if all of the characters present in books and show are there for completely different reasons.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Lord Varys

Well, the Show makes it pretty clear that Euron is not getting the Iron Throne, for example. Seeing as he doesn't exist.

Similarly, Arriane is not the younger more beautiful queen, and she isn't ending up on the Iron Throne either, as queen to Aegon.

In the same vein, Aegon clearly isn't getting the Iron Throne, seeing as he doesn't exist.

Sansa is not setting up to be Lady of the Vale, and playing a role in the southron contest for the Iron Throne, seeing as Harry the Heir doesn't exist, and Sansa is now off in distant Winterfell, having just skipped the entire Vale plotline altogether.

Now sure, a lot of this might have been apparent to those of us who have studied the books in detail for many years. But it nevertheless is now spoiled for us, as the Show has basically just cut out unnecessary fat and jumped straight to points that the books were working towards much more slowly. And that is undeniably spoiling it for us book readers.

I don't think this proves that Aegon isn't getting the throne just that it won't mean much in the long run. As far as I know, book readers believe he'll be one of the many people Martin has told us will sit on the throne as well so the D&D said, let's just skip him. Arianne's story is Aegon's story so she's gone because he's gone. I never thought Sansa was being set up as Lady of the Vale but just hiding out until she could head south. The show has made me think she won't head south until after all the wars are completed, which I have to admit, makes more sense. We've already seen that KL is decimated so Sansa should definitely not be there at that time. And did anyone think any of the Greyjoys was anything but distractions? They have no real power in the books, just ships, and once those are destroyed or seized, then what? I expect them to create some problems in Oldtown and the Riverlands but nothing that will change any main character's story. Well, there was the speculation that Dany would marry one of them but again, did anyone think that would last if it does happen? These are definitely tangential stories to the big stories at KL and the North. Ultimately, the book series is about the Game of Thrones meeting the Song of Ice and Fire. The show will be too, but in a much more abbreviated manner. Euron, Aegon and Arianne are all part of the Game of Thrones and, quite frankly, we have enough story from the other characters to keep that lively and interesting. Losing these 3 doesn't really change the big picture, just the little ones.

[Boar Island]

The Show has now spoiled so much from the books. We now know that the entire Ironborn storyline is meaningless. As is Aegon's storyline. As is the entire Arriane storyline. Darkstar seems to not exist.

As for Arya and Sansa. I think the Show has revealed to us that their long awaited and tumultuous reunion will be at Winterfell, and not in the Eyrie, as I once thought.

The Show seems to have blown the entire Northern Conspiracy out the water, other than some random old lady saying the North remembers. The Dustins and Ryswells probably won't exist in the Show either.

Argh. This plot prediction post is fast turning into a "Rant and Rave without repercussion" post. So I will end it there for now.

I disagree on your notion that "anything in the books that is not in the series is meaningless". The show has repeatedly shown its will to combine storylines and adapt it with different characters. Or is the Lannister-Westerling-plot form ASOS meaningless because it wasn't featured in the show? Or the sad story with Tyrion and Tysha? Tyrion's and Jaime's animosity (which is still adressed in the show)?

I think the biggest change the show will make is that they don't have Dany fight Yunkai and several sellsword armies. Right now, her main enemies seem to be the Sons of the Harpy, with Hizdar as their leader (my speculation). Cutting out the battle in Slaver's Bay would streamline her story and cut out the Greyjoys. Again, this does not mean that the Greyjoy storyline in AFFC and ADWD becomes "meaningless".

At the end of ADWD things are headed for a complicated clash of competing parties in King's Landing (Lannister, Tyrell, the Faith Militant, fAegon, Martell, at some point forces from Braavos, at a later point probably Daenerys) - which are decidedly too many characters for a show that has a bunch of other stories to tell as well. Cutting some of them will make it easier to show stuff that actually resonate with the audience (to me, this is Cersei's downfall and the destruction of the Red Keep as seen in visions).

The idea I'm currently occupied with is that Sam might be involved in Jon's assassination. We see him as his assistant (as in, he won't go to Oldtown), warning Jon that he mustn't take part in Westerosi politics. After receiving news that Sansa is wed to Ramsay, this will become increasingly hard for Jon (just like it was in the books). There might be a big fight between the two. I know that they did cast Bowen Marsh for this season, but we haven't seen much of him.

[SynthFG]

Loros has replaced Magray,

Magray will replace her father and tarley at the head of the Tyrell army

Cerci will get her walk of shame

Big one I expect is that Trystain is fAegon adopted by Doran and part of his long game plan

[Ghosteline]

I just want to see, no I NEED TO SEE Dany fly away with Drogon. This needs to happen!

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I just want to see, no I NEED TO SEE Dany fly away with Drogon. This needs to happen!

I'm pretty sure you will.

[Minuteman]

I think the Dornish plot will end with Ellaria Sand assuming the final role of Arys Oakhart. Since the sand snakes want Myrcella dead and not crowned there will likely end up with a fight between the sand snakes and Jaime/Bronn. As Jaime/Bronn are about to lose Areo Hotah shows up. Ellaria can't give up on vengeance so loses an arm and a head to Hotah's pole axe. What I am waiting to see is whether or not Myrcella dies. Since the show likes twisting plot lines around perhaps Ellaria kills Myrcella right before Hotah takes her head. Then Prince Doran sends Ellaria's head to KL as a sign of justice delivered rather then KL sending Gregor's head to Sunspear.

[Lord Damian]

Well they didn't really age up Myrcella since Nell Tiger Free is almost 2 years younger than Aimee Richardson.

they hired her because she was prettier is the rumor.

[Kyll.Ing.]

My guess...

- Mace and Meryn will go to Braavos and interact with Arya's storyline conceptually the same way as was done in the books (Mercy). From there on, neither the books nor the show give any clues as to what happens.

- Bronn and Jaime won't both survive Dorne. Areo Hotah has exactly two raisons d'etre in the books: To be our eyes and ears in Doran's court, and to kill a Kingslander who interacts with Myrcella. Since the former isn't required in a TV series the way it is in a book, I doubt they cast him only to serve as an ornament in Doran's court. Whether it will be Bronn or Jaime meeting their ends at his poleaxe, can go both ways.

- Brienne and Stannis will meet. It'd be silly not to. Whether or not they'll bump into Lady Stoneheart on the way, well, hard to tell.

- Cersei will probably soon experience that unleashing the faith is a double-edged sword. Time will tell if her clash with the Faith will be as bad as in the books, but Tommen and Margaery (repeatedly) consummating their marriage seems to rule out Cersei's plot for her. Even adultery would be hard to prove, with Tommen - her husband AND actually the king - having a say on the matter. I'd say Margaery is pretty untouchable unless Tommen testifies against her, and that would require a pretty twisted development of his character. Then again, she can't be simply substituted by Loras either. Margaery is a player with agency, and that entire plot line in the books hinges on her being "out of play".

- Speaking of Loras and Margaery, I've got a hunch that the entire siege of Dragonstone will be dropped. If the "Loras conspiracy" plays out in the books, and Loras never goes to Dragonstone at all, he might die in the Ironborn Plot instead. This is dropped from the show, so Loras could concievably be killed by the Faith instead, giving him a death at roughly the same time as in the books. Of course, if he survives through it all, he might do so in the books too. There's not exactly a need for him to die.

- Greyscale foreshadowing, plus the Stone Men having moved to Valyria - coincidentally right in the way of Tyrion and Jorah - seems to indicate that Jorah will be on the receiving end of the disease. Then again, they could throw us a curveball and show Tyrion being infected. The actions and reactions of the greyscale-infected character aren't known in the books either, so we have little to go on here.

- As Tyrion would put it, "Where do Varys go?". No idea. The chances of him offing Kevan would be rather slim, at least for the foreseeable future. Ideally he should be going somewhere and doing something, but where and what, I have no idea.

- The Meereenese Knot would be another interesting tangle. If I hadn't read about the scene in the Fighting Pits, I'd almost assume that Daenerys would lose all the people she knew in Meereen, and decide to just bail on the entire thing. It's not like she has many people left there any longer, apart from Grey Worm and Missandei. She could fly away on Drogon, leave the city behind, and never speak of it again. Then again, Jorah and Tyrion needs something to do in Meereen, so I guess the plot will continue there for a while longer. At least Missandei seems to be alive and kicking, so Dany still has that one "tether" to the city to keep her from leaving.

All in all, it's like we can see another two or three steps ahead, before plunging into the Darkness where the books stop. Some plotlines can be followed all the way to the end of ADWD, others are already terminated, or entirely new ones have appeared. At any rate, the books aren't going to help us for much longer. We have until the end of the season, at the most, and from there on it's all uncertainity.