Where do we go from Here? (Spoilers Galore)

[dielsis]

I'll be interested to see wherever it goes. The only thing I hope is that they spoil post ADWD Jon XIII.

[Tyrion's Third Wife]

The most wanted future for me is Dany to ride away on Drogon and become the Stallion that Mounts the World and gathers the Dothraki army and turns west again...

I know that's too much to ask this season, but at least the Drogon ride?

[Fragile Bird]

@ Kyll.Ing

Are you aware of the theory that Tyrion acquired greyscale when he fell off the boat into the Rhoyne on their river journey taking fAegon to Westeros? The proponents of the theory show language that GRRM starts using about Tyrion feeling a coldness within. And somewhere in the books it mentions that grescale can start internally, before it shows up on the skin.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Actually, I don't think the show has spoiled anything. The show is not telling the same story as the books. A changed story isn't the same story. It may be based on the other story and share some content with the original story but it isn't the same story - that's why there are changes.

Now, the idea that the show could end up 'in the same place as the books just via a different route' is ridiculous to me. Character development is important there. The experience 'on the road' changes you. If you take a different road you are a different man/woman at your destination - if you ever arrive there - and it may make no sense for you to behave/act the way a person does who took a different road. Perhaps you don't even want to go where you originally wanted to go after you chose a different road?

This is why the Cersei-Jaime rape-scene in season 4 makes no sense whatsoever, and neither does the Jaime-Cersei reunion at the end of that season in light of the development of the TV Jaime in season 3 or the book characters (who are now officially out of the show I'd say).

It may be that the certain core storylines - like Dany arriving in Westeros or the Others attacking - will still be the same in books and show but the idea that the show can actually spoil much development for the books is ridiculous to me.

The show usually changes characters and their motivations a lot, and it also changes the plot itself. If they include/adapt actual TWoW chapters for this season we'd not be able to recognize them even if they were fitting the unpublished chapters perfectly (although that's actually impossible now for any plot line imaginable as there isn't any plot fitting the book story anymore).

And the idea that show and books might fit together in the end for the final battle or whatever makes no sense at all.

It is not the same story that is correct, but I think you're missing the point.

There are tons of characters in aSoIaF that essentially become part of the moving cogs. Instead of the amateur fantasy where person 1 goes from point A to point B, in this novel there are a ton of characters in the middle who disrupt the process, even if person 1 does eventually arrive at point B. The show cannot show all of that due to time/money limitations. Our point B may not end up until DoS, but it occurs nonetheless. The show might give us point B well ahead of time to stay on course.

Sansa's new arc comes off as a redirection from D&D, but you are forgetting that they know the entire story. That isn't something that can be easily dismissed because we want to argue from a point of different mediums. Sure there will be numerous things in the books that will be different, but if the result is the same it is the same no matter how you slice it. But to return to Sansa. Her arc could be something Martin is heading for in the next couple of books, albeit differently. Let's say for sake of argument that Jon or Stannis rescues Sansa and brings her back to CB. Then at CB her and Jon begin to fall in love or whatever. Let's also say that this sort of thing develops throughout WoW and DoS, again albeit differently. The show just cut out everything in between and gave us an immediate path, that is in fact spoiling one portion of the story.

As for your last sentence - They already stated the story would end the same, so it makes perfect sense.

Whether or not this is denial or not (from everyone), D&D are spoiling things. You cannot dismiss that they have in their hands the entire story, or at least the major plots. They are not concerned with the minor things, they are concerned with the major things. If Martin says, well Jon and Sansa will fall in love and rule Westeros, well D&D are going to make that happen even if in a different way. If they tell us before Martin, it is in fact spoiling the books. Obviously there will be many little things here and there, but if the major plot points are revealed, and they will be (again they already stated this), the book has in fact been spoiled.

If Bran skin changes/wargs a dragon and torches KL in the books through some elaborate series of events but in the show it is just Bran torching the iron throne and red keep the same conclusions have been made. The way you get there has changed, but the result is still the same. Thus spoiled.

[YaDingus Roast Lord]

As a general rule, we are limited in our speculations about where the books are going because we don't wander into fan-fiction territory. Even though we are now all familiar with the idea the show will end up in the same place as the books, just using a different route, it seems to be fair to say we are deep into fan-fiction territory in the show. The 2 Ds are big fans, but their editing and combining of stories and characters is creating totally new story lines.

Where are they going to go with some of these stories?

Jaime and Bronn in Dorne. Back in Season 1 I would have asked you what you were smoking. What will they be up to by season's end? Will one or both of them be dead?

Sansa in Winterfell. My crystal ball shows me something different every time I look. What about yours? Oops, almost forgot, Brienne.

Loras arrested. Is he replacing all the other plots with the Kettleblacks? Do you see death for this sinner? How does this affect the plot line of Cersei and Margaery? Will they be locked up by the sparrows too? Or has that plot been abandoned?

Is Stannis going to Deepwood Motte in the show, or straight to Winterfell? The winter that catches up with them in the books hasn't shown up yet in the series.

And across the Narrow Sea - where oh where are we going across the sea? Is Selmy dead, or injured?* He's leading things after Dany flies away with Drogon in the books, are we eliminating that plot line? Is Tyrion going to show up with Varys and teach Dany how to fly a dragon?

And how about the Riverrun crowd?

My mind is exploding with endless possibilities. What is happening in your head?

ETA: *I see the mystery actor who was disappointed to find out he was alive in the books and dead in the show was the actor who plays Barristan, Ian McIhenney, when we all first assumed it was Mance Rayder, played by Ciaran Hinds. He's definitely dead as well.

"what's Riverrun?"-majority of GoT audience. I'd be surprised if any of the Riverland storyline from the books is kept in particularly Lady Stoneheart.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Ok. Here is my pet peeve as a fan of the Books and the Show. The Show IS NOT FAN FICTION. While it is clear that the Show is a different story from that contained in the books, it is a professional AUTHORIZED ADAPTATION THAT GRRM APPROVED. Fan Fiction is an amateur unauthorized attempt to mimic GRRM'S work. We need to stop calling the show Fan Fic it is insulting and does not do the show justice.

[ellstaysia]

Big one I expect is that Trystain is fAegon adopted by Doran and part of his long game plan

that's not something I've thought of. interesting!

[Lord Varys]

The show is fan fiction, and bad fan fiction at that, as it shows precisely the fanboyish behavior you would expect from adolescent would-be writers. The fact that it is 'official fan fiction' doesn't change that.

As to spoilers:

I doubt that the Sansa plot is spoiling anything but even if it would - my point is that we as readers would have no way of deciding whether this was a 'made-up' portion of the show's fan fiction or a 'trying to closely adapt George's unfinished/unpublished stuff' portion.

In that sense, we wouldn't be spoiled all that much. I honestly don't expect much content from TWoW and ADoS to show up in the remaining seasons of the show.

[Ser Wun Wun]

1. Bronn could die in Dorne, I wouldn't be surprised. Jaime can simply get the LF warp speed treatment. Wherever GRRM intends for him to go after his meeting with LS, D&D can just warp him there.

2. Sansa returning to the North sometime in TWOW is pretty common speculation, so her being in the North now is not an issue imo. She was likely going there anyway. It's just all the Vale politics she was supposed to be involved in has been cut, so they will have jumped her deep into her TWOW material by next season. Sansa is going to be farther ahead plotwise compared to the books than any other character imo.

3. Loras is a secondary character, I doubt D&D care at all about what GRRM has in store for him. Cersei will be arrested,not sure about Marge.

4. I remember reading that Asha appears this season...could have been just a baseless rumor though. If she appears though, Stannis will surely capture her. It won't be in the form of an elaborate battle though, just a skirmish that ends with her being taken prisoner.

5. There has been no mention of Slaver forces across the world coming for Dany, nor is Victarion bringing her ships. So there will be no battle of fire imo. And Bary is going to die in TWOW imo. I thought that long before this season, but this last episode just confirmed it for me. I don't think Varys will show up in Meereen at all. We might have seen the last of him this season actually.

6. Wouldn't surpise me if we never saw Edmure or the Blackfish again in thise series honestly.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Sorry Lord Varys I disagree. Its actually a very good adaptation and to call it fan fiction is demeaning. I challenge anyone to do a better job bringing such a complicated and lengthy story, filled with far too many characters for any medium other than a novel, to a TV or movie Screen. It is impossible to transcribe the story from the book to the screen. By the time it was done Rickon would be an old man and the Iron Bank would be bankrupt. Just because the Show cannot live up to a standard that is impossible to meet does not mean attempts to label it as fan fiction are valid.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, I've read somewhere that

Gwendoline Christie has said that Brienne would fight Gregor this season

.

No idea how this makes sense, but if it is true then it is actually quite unlikely that she'll go or do stuff in the North.

[Varys Imilitude]

I agree with the fan fiction remark. D&D are basically just 2 average fans who happen to have film making skills, and connections.

There are thousands of fans with a better overall knowledge of ASOIAF than D&D. I'm not trying to bash them it's simply true.

When the show is finished, and D&D are interviewed about it afterward I'm certain they will admit to having bitten off more than they could chew.

The books are one mans singular vision. The show is a massive collaborative effort in which many of the participants are literally not on the same page.

[Daenerys_Is_Coming]

Sorry Lord Varys I disagree. Its actually a very good adaptation and to call it fan fiction is demeaning. I challenge anyone to do a better job bringing such a complicated and lengthy story, filled with far too many characters for any medium other than a novel, to a TV or movie Screen. It is impossible to transcribe the story from the book to the screen. By the time it was done Rickon would be an old man and the Iron Bank would be bankrupt. Just because the Show cannot live up to a standard that is impossible to meet does not mean attempts to label it as fan fiction are valid.

Um... how is it NOT fan fiction?

Just apply this simple logic test called, "Did it happen in the books?"

Sansa in Winterfell? Nope.

LF in Wintefell? Nope.

Sansa marrying Ramsey? Nope.

Jamie in Dorne? Nope.

Bronn in Dorne? Nope.

Ellaria set on bloody revenge? Nope.

Brienne following Sansa? Nope.

Tyrion and Jorah rowing to Mereen in a tug boat? Nope.

Shireen at Castle Black? Nope.

Melisandre seducing Jon? Nope.

Loras arrested by the Faith Militant? Nope.

Tommen tries to free Loras? Nope.

Mace Tyrell gets sent to Braavos? Nope.

Barristan killed by Harpies? Nope.

Grey Worm injured by Harpies? Nope.

Jamie, Bronn, Brienne, Podrick, Sansa, and LittleFinger aren't even in the right kingdoms from where they are and what they're doing in the book.

I'm not being critical of the changes, I'm just saying that this season D+D left "adaptation" behind and are writing their own story. It's just like what happened to True Blood. Once they left the source material, the show fell apart.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Actually, I've read somewhere that

Gwendoline Christie has said that Brienne would fight Gregor this season

.

No idea how this makes sense, but if it is true then it is actually quite unlikely that she'll go or do stuff in the North.

There is a theory that Bran's dream is about Jaime, Brienne and Gregor:

One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armoured like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

They say Brienne will wear the Hound's dog helmet after their encounter with LSH.

[Dragon in the North]

Shireen at Castle Black? Nope.

Melisandre seducing Jon? Nope.

Yes and yes.

[Arkash]

No reaction to the speculation that Nym and/or Tyene could be sent to King's Landing by the end of the season and be present for the Walk ? :)

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Um... how is it NOT fan fiction?

Just apply this simple logic test called, "Did it happen in the books?"

Sansa in Winterfell? Nope. Don't know yet. Wait for TWoW.

LF in Wintefell? Nope. Don't know yet. Wait for TWoW.

Sansa marrying Ramsey? Nope. No, she's slated to marry another man in the books.

Jamie in Dorne? Nope.

Bronn in Dorne? Nope.

Ellaria set on bloody revenge? Nope.

Brienne following Sansa? Nope. Don't know yet. Wait for TWoW.

Tyrion and Jorah rowing to Mereen in a tug boat? Nope.

Shireen at Castle Black? Nope. Yes

Melisandre seducing Jon? Nope. Yes

Loras arrested by the Faith Militant? Nope.

Tommen tries to free Loras? Nope.

Mace Tyrell gets sent to Braavos? Nope.

Barristan killed by Harpies? Nope. Don't know yet. Wait for TWoW.

Grey Worm injured by Harpies? Nope. Don't know yet. Wait for TWoW.

Let's not forget that D&D have more information than we do. Sure, they are taking liberties with many things and many of the things I marked Don't know could never happen. But until book 6 & 7 come out, we don't really know what they're making up and what they're moving up.

No reaction to the speculation that Nym and/or Tyene could be sent to King's Landing by the end of the season and be present for the Walk ? :)

I hadn't heard that. When do they actually leave Dorne? Could they potentially be there in the books? Finally, does it matter if they are there or not? They will know it happened whether they see it or not.

[Faint]

In that sense, we wouldn't be spoiled all that much. I honestly don't expect much content from TWoW and ADoS to show up in the remaining seasons of the show.

We have already been explicitly told -- and on multiple occasions -- that we would be getting the same ending. There might be shortcuts on the way there, as there have already been, but the show creators are building to the same conclusion regardless. I would even venture to guess that the television adaption of A Dream of Spring will more closely mirror the text than the adaption of The Winds of Winter since, according to Martin, many more point of view characters will have been eliminated by the then. In that way, it will be much easier to make a straight adaption (i.e., the first season most closely mirrored the books precisely because it had the least material to cover and less characters).

[A Wolf Among Sheep]

Um... how is it NOT fan fiction?

GRRM doesn't consider the show to be fan fiction. That's good enough for me.

[MyLittleFinger]

Bronn will be killed by the Sand Snakes to show how badass and formidable they are...I'm hoping for a sex scene and Bronn gets his throat slit or something, though I can see Obara killing him or something. Then the audience who are used to Bronn the brilliant, smart, witty, brutal and undefeated fighter will know that the Sand Snakes are for rizzow. Jaime will lose another fight, because he's won about one in the entire show and has been constantly mocked as being all reputation and no bite.

Theon will save Sansa from Ramsay after Sansa walks in a sees Ramsay raping/torturing Myranda for threatening Sansa. They will ride into Stannis' camp bogged down by...snow is expensive, so maybe since the Bolton's are short staffed the walls of Winterfell?

Jon will only be killed if we see Ghost once this season...so probably not!