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Where do we go from Here? (Spoilers Galore)


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2. Sansa returning to the North sometime in TWOW is pretty common speculation, so her being in the North now is not an issue imo. She was likely going there anyway. It's just all the Vale politics she was supposed to be involved in has been cut, so they will have jumped her deep into her TWOW material by next season. Sansa is going to be farther ahead plotwise compared to the books than any other character imo.

I don't agree with this. Sansa is not getting new material. Instead of doing her own stuff revealed so far or future stuff not revealed yet, she is borrowing the published plotline of another character. This looks like stalling, not fastforwarding. So, it is more likely that after this borrowed plotline is played out, she will head to where she is supposed to be when she is supposed to be according to the overall structure of the books.

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My musings:

The Show's biggest "fudging tool", is their total disregard for consistency in the size of Westeros. In other words, playing around with distances to speed up or slow down certain aspects of the plot. I can see them just totally disregard the Deepwood Motte plot, and having Stannis get caught in the snow on the way to Winterfell.

At the same time, they have a rider arriving with Littlefinger's message from the Eyrie in almost no time, Jaime and Bronn getting to Dorne in the blink of an eye, and Jorah sailing from Volantis to Meereen in a tiny open top fishing boat. This while Victarrion lost half his Iron Fleet on trying to duplicate that part of the voyage.

In any case, as far as the plot is concerned, a big fear of mine is that the Show is going the "Leigh Butler fantasy" route, with Jaime falling in love with Brienne. A ridiculous notion, in the books, but one which the Show seems to be hinting at with Jaime's wistful look at Tarth, and his cryptic comment of wanting to die in the arms of the woman he loves. I hope like hell he means Cersei in that reference.

Brienne seems to be the Terminator of the Show, along with Bronn who is probably the T-1000. Their skills are so ridiculously inflated by D&D, that they will likely both make it to the end game, and play major roles going forward. Brienne now seems destined to kill Stannis, and save Sansa. Heck, she may even become the Hooded Man in Winterfell.

The Show has now spoiled so much from the books. We now know that the entire Ironborn storyline is meaningless. As is Aegon's storyline. As is the entire Arriane storyline. Darkstar seems to not exist.

As for Arya and Sansa. I think the Show has revealed to us that their long awaited and tumultuous reunion will be at Winterfell, and not in the Eyrie, as I once thought.

The Show seems to have blown the entire Northern Conspiracy out the water, other than some random old lady saying the North remembers. The Dustins and Ryswells probably won't exist in the Show either.

Argh. This plot prediction post is fast turning into a "Rant and Rave without repercussion" post. So I will end it there for now.

..and why would that be such a bad thing?

In the books, it is clear that Jaime has some weird feeling about Brienne and both in the show and books Brienne loves him.

I think in the books it is made to be played out as the reverse Beauty and the Beast scenario.I don't think they will end up together in the most traditional of senses but I think Jaime will admit that he loves her at some point.

I don't understand why that would be so bad.In the books, he is becoming his own man, getting away from Cercei's clutches.She betrays him, doesn't love him the way he loves her etc.

Anyway, that is off topic.

Where do we go from here?

What I think will happen:

I am sure Bronn will bite the dust.

Myrcella won't return to KL.

It was Cercei's ploy , there was never a threat sent from Dorne.

Sansa will not get the Jeyne Poole treatment.Myranda will and Sansa will be part of it.

Shireen will either get burned of they will be an attempt to burn her and I believe it won't be Mel.It will be Selyse who will do it without Mel knowing.If she survives, I guess she will be whisked away by Sam and Gilly.

Cersei will get the WOS but since she has no lovers in the show, it will be because Lancel will rat her out on their adulterous relations.

Varys might kill Kevan.

Ellaria might die.

Poor Barry's death has made space for Tyrion.

Jorah will be in the pits.

Arya kills Trant for sure.

Tormund MIGHT get Mances role and go to WF to save Sansa.

etc. I could make a million more speculations.

The show is fanfiction after all.

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Sorry Lord Varys I disagree. Its actually a very good adaptation and to call it fan fiction is demeaning. I challenge anyone to do a better job bringing such a complicated and lengthy story, filled with far too many characters for any medium other than a novel, to a TV or movie Screen. It is impossible to transcribe the story from the book to the screen. By the time it was done Rickon would be an old man and the Iron Bank would be bankrupt. Just because the Show cannot live up to a standard that is impossible to meet does not mean attempts to label it as fan fiction are valid.

When I call the show fanfiction.I do not mean it as demeaning.I just call it what it is.If there is food on a table , I call it food.It may be good or it may taste bad.

I read some fanfiction every now and then for my favourite fiction universes and I have read good fanfiction, average fanfiction and bad, really bad fanfiction and I have also tried to write some in my free time but I don't really have writing skills so I gave up.I probably wouldn't be able to adapt this.But there are many fans out there with a greater knowledge of ASOIAF , people who are legit writers themselves who I bet everything I have , given budget,they would do 100% better job than D&D.

I mean, Elio and Linda who run the forums, I bet if they had millions and were interested in making an adaptation, they would totally rock it!

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GRRM doesn't consider the show to be fan fiction. That's good enough for me.

To be completely honest.

We will never really know how GRRM truly feels about the show.

He signed a contract, he knew what limitations he would have to this regard.

It's not like he can come out and say negative stuff about the show right now, while it's on air and while the show has generated a huge income for him.

You can't know for sure if GRRM considers or doesn't consider the show Fanfiction.

However, there are some clues that he MIGHT not be very content with it.But still, we cannot know for sure.

He no longer posts on his blog about the show, while he did a lot more in the past.

He hasn't written for Season 5 and will not write for Season 6.

He is trying to get TWOW out faster.

He has been talking about a possible twist for a character/group of characters that if happens in future books, the show cannot go back and take that route because the have axhausted that possibility.

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I don't agree with this. Sansa is not getting new material. Instead of doing her own stuff revealed so far or future stuff not revealed yet, she is borrowing the published plotline of another character. This looks like stalling, not fastforwarding. So, it is more likely that after this borrowed plotline is played out, she will head to where she is supposed to be when she is supposed to be according to the overall structure of the books.

This.

The Jeyne Poole storyline has been axed from the show, so they are just using Sansa as a "placeholder" in that storyline to keep her busy while the rest of the cast's storylines catch up.

We are essentially not-quite at the midpoint of ADWD in the show, so there is plenty of book storylines to play out. The only two story arcs that they already completed where Jaime, Bran and Sansa. Bran is apparently absent in Season 5, they turned Jeyne Poole into Sansa to keep that plotline going (and to give Sansa something to do),and Jaime/Bronn is essentially taking the place of Sir Aerys Oakheart (going after Myrcella).

I wonder what they will do with Sansa afterwards though. Originally, it was Jeyne as (f)Arya being sent to the wall to reunite with Jon. If Sansa is taking her place (with Theon helping her escape), that possibly could mean that Sansa, when it's all said and done, will be Warden of the North in both the show and books.

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There's no way they'd take the time to specifically show the Blackfish avoiding the RW slaughter and then have a follow up scene where they again remind the viewers that he escaped if he was never appearing again. He's going to appear and unleash hell upon Roose, Ramsay, or the Freys at some point.

I think you are drastically underestimating D&D's willingness to cast logic and continuity aside in order to cram this story into just 7 seasons. They once dedicated a scene to Cat swearing an oath to Brienne that she would never stop her from pursuing Stannis (which she is doing now). When I saw it I thought for sure that that scene would be important when Brienne ran into LS....who has been cut. Making the whole scene pointless in hindsight. That oath has zero bearing on the story since there is no LS. My guess is they still thought they would have a LS at that time, only to decide to cut her later.

Look at this situation from D&D's incompetent eyes...they have 2 seasons and 20 episodes to wrap this whole yarn up (an arbitrary number they have decided best tells the story). Do they dedicate as much of that screentime as possible to the main characters, or do they bother to bring back and pay 2 actors (Edmure and Blackfish) who 90% of their audience isn't going to remember after they have been missing for like 3 years now. LS is gone. Robb's wife is gone. Jaime didn't even bother going to the Riverlands, which would have been a perfect time to reintroduce the Blackfish. The entire Riverlands storyline in general seems to have been axed.

The only scenario in which I can see them bringing Blackfish back is if he is leading the Brotherhood without Banners and Sandor is among them. Sandor is a fan favorite who will def be brought back. So if they tie Blackfish into him, he could make the cut. Or they could save themselves some money by just making Sandor the leader of the Brotherhood. I wouldn't put that past them honestly...

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I don't agree with this. Sansa is not getting new material. Instead of doing her own stuff revealed so far or future stuff not revealed yet, she is borrowing the published plotline of another character. This looks like stalling, not fastforwarding. So, it is more likely that after this borrowed plotline is played out, she will head to where she is supposed to be when she is supposed to be according to the overall structure of the books.

Obviously this is a borrowed storyline and not new material....my point is, where is Sansa going to be at the end of this borrowed storyline? The answer is probably still in the North, no? Unless you see her being dragged back to the Vale at the end of this by LF, and forced to endure a 2nd arranged marriage by his hand, she will not be in the same place at the beginning of S6 as she is at in the beginning of TWOW.

With her already in the North and the whole Harry the Heir/Vale politics in general plotline axed (which is the most likely scenario imo), she will be way farther ahead in her TWOW material at the beginning of S6 than any other character that I can think of except for perhaps Brienne (and possibly Jaime).

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Obviously this is a borrowed storyline and not new material....my point is, where is Sansa going to be at the end of this borrowed storyline? The answer is probably still in the North, no? Unless you see her being dragged back to the Vale at the end of this by LF, and forced to endure a 2nd arranged marriage by his hand, she will not be in the same place at the beginning of S6 as she is at in the beginning of TWOW.

With her already in the North and the whole Harry the Heir/Vale politics in general plotline axed (which is the most likely scenario imo), she will be way farther ahead in her TWOW material at the beginning of S6 than any other character that I can think of except for perhaps Brienne (and possibly Jaime).

I think there are a lot of possibilities. Sansa will escape Winterfell but mistrust was sowed to her against Stannis. If she runs away with Brienne, she is definitely not going to Stannis. And it is not a given that Sansa will finish fArya storyline this season or depart before fulfilling it to its end. fArya is still on the move in the books and her destination seems like Wall and if she does not commit suicide or gets killed, she might even go to Braavos.

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Wow some of hte posts in this thread :bang: Some people just will not accept that D&D know more than any of us, they know how the story will end and the fates of all the characters, they also have access to Winds of Winter material.



Now that said I firmly get we all have our ideas and beliefs about what will happen so we are now being spoilt, I fully expect several winds of winter spoilers in the next few weeks which I am sure will be disregarded by some as fan fiction. So let me just say the books and the show is the same story however the books are a much more expansive version of that and the TV show has to condense and at times ommit less important themes. Yes that's a disappointment for some, I am disappointed Aegon does not seem to be in but it's clear the TV show is moving towards the end game now something I expect GRRM will do in Winds. My only criticism of Season 5 is that it feels rushed to give everyone screentime so that clearly means some of hte less important arcs are cut or delayed until next season as they can tie in with Winds (Euron I hope).


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To be completely honest.

We will never really know how GRRM truly feels about the show.

He signed a contract, he knew what limitations he would have to this regard.

It's not like he can come out and say negative stuff about the show right now, while it's on air and while the show has generated a huge income for him.

You can't know for sure if GRRM considers or doesn't consider the show Fanfiction.

If GRRM didn't mean what he said, then why say anything at all?

However, there are some clues that he MIGHT not be very content with it.But still, we cannot know for sure.

He no longer posts on his blog about the show, while he did a lot more in the past.

He hasn't written for Season 5 and will not write for Season 6.

He is trying to get TWOW out faster.

He has been talking about a possible twist for a character/group of characters that if happens in future books, the show cannot go back and take that route because the have axhausted that possibility.

None of that indicates that he hates the show, only that he is working hard on the Winds of Winter. After coming up with every stalling tactic he could think of, Martin has now finally come to terms with the fact that the show is going to pass him. He may be a little bitter with how the show is going to spoil his ending, which is understandable, but this doesn't mean that he hates what D&D are doing.

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I think there are a lot of possibilities. Sansa will escape Winterfell but mistrust was sowed to her against Stannis. If she runs away with Brienne, she is definitely not going to Stannis. And it is not a given that Sansa will finish fArya storyline this season or depart before fulfilling it to its end. fArya is still on the move in the books and her destination seems like Wall and if she does not commit suicide or gets killed, she might even go to Braavos.

Ser Wun Wun's point stands. There's no realistic way to hit the reset button to put Sansa where she is at the beginning of TWOW: in the Vale, incognito as Alayne, and betrothed to Harry. She has outed herself as Sansa in the show already: there's no unringing that bell. With Arya's Season 4 arc, for all of the non-book material, the writers were able to place her exactly where she was supposed to end up in the books: on a ship on her way to Braavos. That ain't happening with Sansa. After Ramsay gets through with her, if Littlefinger tries to sell her on another arranged marriage to another stranger, she'll tell him to go fuck himself.

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Wow some of hte posts in this thread :bang: Some people just will not accept that D&D know more than any of us, they know how the story will end and the fates of all the characters, they also have access to Winds of Winter material.

Now that said I firmly get we all have our ideas and beliefs about what will happen so we are now being spoilt, I fully expect several winds of winter spoilers in the next few weeks which I am sure will be disregarded by some as fan fiction. So let me just say the books and the show is the same story however the books are a much more expansive version of that and the TV show has to condense and at times ommit less important themes. Yes that's a disappointment for some, I am disappointed Aegon does not seem to be in but it's clear the TV show is moving towards the end game now something I expect GRRM will do in Winds. My only criticism of Season 5 is that it feels rushed to give everyone screentime so that clearly means some of hte less important arcs are cut or delayed until next season as they can tie in with Winds (Euron I hope).

I agree. GRRM has confirmed that the showrunners are aware of the general roadmap of the series through to the end. And it may seem that D&D are going "off book" more now, but that has less to do with the fact that we're approaching where the books cut off and more to do with the fact that as the story has proceeded, the plots have become a lot more fractured, which requires a lot more crafty writing in order to accommodate all of the necessary elements - that means larger departures are needed. We've always known that all of the characters on the show are amalgamations designed to accomodate that the books have too many characters to ever dream of realistically transporting to the screen with any sense of order and storycraft.

Think of it this way - imagine they condensed the story a'la LotR and tried to do a 3 hour movie per book. Imagine the plot mechanics that would need to happen to accomodate that. This isn't fan fiction, this is ADAPTATION.

I think a lot of the show hate in this regard is because people consider every movement of the characters in the books to be essential to the grand arc in the books, which is weird because we the readers still have no idea of the denouement.

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I will never ever understand people calling D&D "Incompetent." They run the most watched show on TV, which was largely considered a huge risk to bring to tv in the first place, all while remaining as faithful as their limitations provide. I.e. money $$$$$.



People seem to want every single little character and every little scene. That'd be majorly impossible.


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Nobody doubts that the show runners know stuff. But we are talking about a complex story that has been cut down and changed by them. And George telling them how he intends to end everything isn't the same as writing the books. George may want to reach destination X but he may realize that this is not going to work for this character during the writing process. That's all I'm saying.



And it is a huge leap to assume that the show actually continues to stay true to the (unpublished) book content. They greatly changed stuff they easily could have adapted faithfully, and the chances that they are going to adapt unpublished or unwritten stuff faithfully essentially are zero, in my opinion.


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I don't agree with this. Sansa is not getting new material. Instead of doing her own stuff revealed so far or future stuff not revealed yet, she is borrowing the published plotline of another character. This looks like stalling, not fastforwarding. So, it is more likely that after this borrowed plotline is played out, she will head to where she is supposed to be when she is supposed to be according to the overall structure of the books.

This is how I read this season as well. That's why Bran, having almost reached the end of his book material, is out of the show this season. I'd imagine the idea to be this season ending where aDwD ends so tWoW might end up being published before the season 6 is out.

Also agreeing with being amazed at the amount of bile that gets thrown at D&D on continuous basis and claiming how GRRM hates the show and D&D.

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Ser Wun Wun's point stands. There's no realistic way to hit the reset button to put Sansa where she is at the beginning of TWOW: in the Vale, incognito as Alayne, and betrothed to Harry. She has outed herself as Sansa in the show already: there's no unringing that bell. With Arya's Season 4 arc, for all of the non-book material, the writers were able to place her exactly where she was supposed to end up in the books: on a ship on her way to Braavos. That ain't happening with Sansa. After Ramsay gets through with her, if Littlefinger tries to sell her on another arranged marriage to another stranger, she'll tell him to go fuck himself.

Why? Most probably, Sansa will be dragged away from Winterfell on the show. That is also what I expect from the Vale storyline. All those plots about Harry and tourney and the other things will not amount to any conclusion, at least as far as Sansa is concerned. In an abrupt chain of events, Sansa will be dragged away from the Vale, most probably by Shadrich.

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Ser Wun Wun's point stands. There's no realistic way to hit the reset button to put Sansa where she is at the beginning of TWOW: in the Vale, incognito as Alayne, and betrothed to Harry. She has outed herself as Sansa in the show already: there's no unringing that bell. With Arya's Season 4 arc, for all of the non-book material, the writers were able to place her exactly where she was supposed to end up in the books: on a ship on her way to Braavos. That ain't happening with Sansa. After Ramsay gets through with her, if Littlefinger tries to sell her on another arranged marriage to another stranger, she'll tell him to go fuck himself.

She obviously won't join up to where she is in the beginning of TWOW but rather some time in the middle of the book I assume.

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She obviously won't join up to where she is in the beginning of TWOW but rather some time in the middle of the book I assume.

Exactly. The middle of the book, not the beginning. However, as things are shaping up, no other characters will be out of ADWD territory by the time the end of the season rolls around, which vaults Sansa ahead of the other characters plotwise; that was Ser Wun Wun's point.

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Since D&D know where the main characters like Sansa are at the end, it is sort of spoiler heavy for the books in that the Vale storyline for Alayne/Sansa is somewhat insignifigant. Jaime can be brought out of Dorne and up in the Riverlands or back to Kings'Landing within one episode so that is ok, he is on the move. Sansa though, seems to be taking on a lot of roles. Also, what about Alys Karstark? Has anyone forgotten her? I am worried about Sansa's survival in the books as it appears it was somewhat easy for show runners to totally take her, a major character and do THIS to her without batting an eye and have been plotting to do so since ADWD was released almost 4 years ago. It does not bode well for her character on the show either if you think about it.


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