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Bakker XXXVI: The Horror of Threads to Come


Madness

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Great catch, but from what I can tell, a frustrating thing that may or may not signal anything.

I could see it being "inhuman" in the sense that the Dunyain philosophy suggests that all humans do not know what truly moves them.

Shit, one of the poisoned pills of Bakker's layers of revelation is that it's made all of us question the narrative more than we might have otherwise done.

The worst ones for me are trying to figure out the actual mistakes vs clues. You know there are some out there. Combine that with the fact that sometimes he just 'references' stuff for the sake of referencing in it (just like McCarthy) it's tough to tell what's just name dropping*, and what smoke's actually got some fire behind it.

The Inrau scene with the fiery death punch is particularly frustrating but I'm firmly chalking it up to him not having dialed in the details on the magic system/metaphysics yet.

*eta: for instance, The Womb Plague - is this just homage to the entwives and some good story work adding detail and color to the cuno-inchie history, or is there something more going on here?

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What was the controversy regarding Inrau's death, again? That he didn't have a Mark and used the Gnosis on the skin-spies?

I was thinking more about the fire/hands thing- was it possession by Onkis? Some kind of Cish style magic? Can't remember if he had a mark or not, but yeah, basically where does he fit in on the progression of learning sorcery to damned, and wtf did he do when he was confronted by the Consult?

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I'd presumed Inrau's death was a tragedy. He's just used used sorcery to kill evil (that would have tortured him horribly), but that the god things can't see - so just then he got the mark! Which means he'll be tortured for eternity for this act! Which maybe begs the question how is that moral? It's a bit more advanced than the 'you can guide the trolley car away from five people to kill just one person' sort of fable/intuition pump, but it's pretty much in that genre.



Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure why the gods care about magic use (if you do morally neutral things with it - like dig dirt or something). Is there a prohibition on magic in the real world bible? Probably, I guess.


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Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure why the gods care about magic use (if you do morally neutral things with it - like dig dirt or something). Is there a prohibition on magic in the real world bible? Probably, I guess.

it's the "god hardened pharaohs heart and murdered thousands of innocents with plagues" problem isn't it?
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it's the "god hardened pharaohs heart and murdered thousands of innocents with plagues" problem isn't it?

I'm thinking no - the Inrau situation is the result of a bunch of rules put into place already, interacting.

The god hardening (lol!) is not a passive result of already implemented rules but instead the god going and messing with the shit directly. To me, it's even more crazy than usual for gods.

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I'm thinking no - the Inrau situation is the result of a bunch of rules put into place already, interacting.

The god hardening (lol!) is not a passive result of already implemented rules but instead the god going and messing with the shit directly. To me, it's even more crazy than usual for gods.

Depends on if gods are entities onto themselves or more like weather systems born from the essences of the things the represent. Like is Yatwer really an entity existing in her own right, or a complex mental "tornado" born from past/present/future representation/execution of things under "her" divine sphere of influence?

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OK, something else I didn't come across, but, other topics led me to the idea. I'm sure it was discussed before I just haven't seen it.

The Dûnyain's goal is to move to a Self-Moving Soul, correct? And Kelhuss is there or very, very near. Here is the quirk to all the series that escapes me.

I'd say Kellhus is likely as far as ever. For Kellhus, and presumably everyone who ever meets him [and is seduced to his way of thinking], the world is seen as if it were a machine. Mimara even thinks like this, and presumes this way of thinking is a revelation - that seeing the world as a mechanism is to see the world as it really is.

Yet we have an alternative, holistic way of seeing presented to us -> That of the Cish. Even Mimara sees something like this when she looks into the Chorae.

This is why I don't think Kellhus can ever be a self-moving soul. When you think of the mental world as amenable to reduction in the way the physical world is, you're always going to come up with a picture of the Self as a set of smaller and smaller parts fitting together. It's the "Small is Beautiful" fallacy, where fundamental aspects of ontology have to be miniscule.

Souls are, in Earwa, arguably fundamental. They have emotions, fears, and so on. No brain wiring in Earwa could represent these things, because it would privilege an arrangement of the physical as intrinsically connected to said mental aspects.

Kellhus, of course, can't (or at least in the first trilogy couldn't) acknowledge this without conceding limits to the Dunyain paradigm. Why he says Moe's inability to work the Psukhe is based on a lack of passions - it's the story Kellhus needs to believe because if the very way Dunyain look at the world is a weakness then Kellhus is also limited in a fundamental sense. His being is one that doesn't "believe in the right way".

Whether Kellhus 2.0 we get the sequels is limited as much as the mechanistic Kellhus of the first trilogy remains to be seen.

Yes, Kelhuss has stated he is more than Dûnyain (is that because he has emotions or his nearness to a SMS?), but, I can't wrap my head around the idea that the Pragma's don't know what's going on, or have a hand in it. The story about the Sranc and Moe being sent out, then the dreams and Kel, well, its just TOO simple for me.

1. After 2000 years of breeding and training and moving towards their goal, by ACCIDENT, Kelhuss is taking over Earwa?

2.As I said its TOO simple. If the Dûnyain have no problem killing off defects and turning them into "face book's?", I don't see where they'd have a problem just killing Moe to begin with.

3. If you subscribe to the story Kelhuss gives about Moe being " unclean", then that's pretty naive to be held as truth, no? That's the best the Pragam's could come up with? "Just let him go, he'll die. Our sect is a failure and he has no chance." Nah, ain't buying it...

Keep in mind the World conspires, and it at least some cases WCADWCB. (How linear time causality and teleology interact hasn't been made clear.)

Since we know so little about the World-as-Character it's hard to say what is just coincidence from a Dunyain vantage point and what is conditioned. So it's not that you're wrong, it's just that we lack the necessary information to make the correct judgement.

I mean come on,man. I believe that this is all the fruition of the Dûnyain's mission.

Gotta disagree. To be in the world, to be bound by history? For the Pragmas to plan so much out would be to completely kill off their hope of producing a being who could completely transcend history.

And, quite frankly, if you hold to the opinion that the Dûnyain are Seswatha's or the Consult's tool then it makes even more sense. It was time. They knew of the Celmommas Prophecy, they knew that its close for the No-God to reawaken (either for or against the Consult, I can't say). It fits with Moe conditioning the ground for Kelhuss theory. I think Moe knew all of this, and Kelhuss is intentionally kept in the dark, he will come to the conclusion he is suppose to, Moe pushed him that way in the meeting.

I think Big Moe knew more than he let on, and he ensured Kellhus would follow conditioned ground. Whether this was put into place by the the Pragmas...I kinda doubt it for reasons given above. Also I suspect women are in charge of the Dunyain and the Pragmas are not in command or aware of much beyond the walls of Ishual.

I believe, the Dûnyain uppermost Pragma's knew of sorcery, but neither practiced it or knew even how to. They just knew it would be needed at some point to achieve a Self-Moving Soul. As a matter of fact, Moe even states this with what he says to Kelhuss. That, nothing about sorcery negates the Logos.

Not seeing how sorcery necessarily allows for a self-moving soul. If anything the Gnosis leads one into mechanistic folly, where the priors one assumes makes escape impossible. It's like trying to find an escape route from a room of solid stone you've come to believe has no windows or doors.

So where I'm going with all this is that as soon as Kelhuss left Ishual, the Dûnyain destroyed it and moved to different location so Kelhuss couldn't kill them with magic. But, when their needed to fulfill this mission they will be in place. Yes, Kelhuss went to Ishual and found it destroyed, but is sending Akka there to find "something", that Ses's dreams will lead him to. He needs Akka in this sense, because he doesn't dream the dreams, but ,knows Akka has become a Prophet of the Past.

But why would the Dunyain be useful to the mission of Seswatha? Even a thousand Dunyain, unless they've been learning sorcery the last 20 years, aren't going to do much. And the issue between Big Moe and Kellhus remains - why shouldn't the Dunyain assist the Consult? (Really, why shouldn't any magus?)

I guess call me inspired by Nerdanel,Lol. No, but in reading over the threads, it just struck me a obvious. I don't see the Dûnyain making the blunder of letting Moe roam the Earth, they're too calculated for that. And I believe we will see them again.

But to the Dunyain it wasn't necessarily a blunder. Just let Big Moe die in the wilderness, which is all that's left of civilization.

ETA: In regards to Akka and his dreams, well if the Dûnyain were founded essentially by Seswatha, then it would make sense for Seswatha to use Akka in this manner, right? Why wouldn't the Dûnyain just take whatever Akka is supposed to find? Its too important and Ses didn't want to risk anything happening to it, such as being destroyed. And, he founded the Mandate, and knew he'd have an easily viable way to lead someone to Ishual and find what is needed.

I don't think anyone's understanding of teleology could lead one to know with certainty that a member of the Mandate could find Ishual. Maybe Kellhus has an understanding of teleology via the TTT, but even then it's not clear this provides a complete understanding of future events that the WLW (supposedly) possesses.

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But, but, but, well, Bakker emailed me why Dragons don't wear chorae, and I'm not telling you!!!! I'm taking my secrets and going home...... :lmao:

Oh, I've no idea if I'm right either. Just throwing out my counter-thoughts.

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I know, I'm just teasing around. I love your input, even when you dismantle my Nerdanel. :)

Oh I think some of what you say will come to pass and there were conspiracies spanning millennia.

I just think the agents who've set these things in motion across the ages aren't mortals like Seswatha, but rather Ajokli and what the World is meant to be.

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Oh I think some of what you say will come to pass and there were conspiracies spanning millennia.

I just think the agents who've set these things in motion across the ages aren't mortals like Seswatha, but rather Ajokli and what the World is meant to be.

You know, I'd really love to know exactly what the Synethse means when he tells the skin-spy to "respect all of the prophecies", when talking about Mimara. That would be really interesting.

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You know, I'd really love to know exactly what the Synethse means when he tells the skin-spy to "respect all of the prophecies", when talking about Mimara. That would be really interesting.

Oh that's one of my favorite lines, because he says "even the false ones"? What exactly is a "false prophecy" as opposed to a "true one"? - the only way to discern which is which would be for events to arrive and decide for one/both/none.

The Synthese in WLW seems to have think they've got the golden ticket in the Belief Lottery, which is interesting given the supposed rejection of morality and divinity we see when Aurang speaks to Kellhus.

Could it be two different beings piloting the Synthese? Aurang in TTT while it's a human-undead like Shae in WLW?

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Not sure I've ever asked this before, but are there any prophecies of note in the story thus far beyond the big one about an A returning at the end of the world?


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Not sure I've ever asked this before, but are there any prophecies of note in the story thus far beyond the big one about an A returning at the end of the world?

They show up in the Aphorisms:

IIRC the Hundred are supposed come through their idols to devour their worshipers, according to Fane.

There's also the one about 144,000 souls and...something or other in WLW. Don't have the books anymore so not sure.

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Going back to the Inrau scene. I was under the impression that Achamian couldn’t teach Kellhus the Gnosis (initially) because Kellhus had not grasped Seswatha’s heart - that the ‘Seswatha in them’ prevented the Mandate from dispensing the secrets of the Gnosis except to someone who had grasped the heart.



Is there any basis for that in the text?


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Going back to the Inrau scene. I was under the impression that Achamian couldn’t teach Kellhus the Gnosis (initially) because Kellhus had not grasped Seswatha’s heart - that the ‘Seswatha in them’ prevented the Mandate from dispensing the secrets of the Gnosis except to someone who had grasped the heart.

Is there any basis for that in the text?

Yeah, it's spelled out in TTT. Book basically flat out says Ses keeps Mandati from spreading the Gnosis to those who don't have Ses inside them.

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Yeah, except that it seems that Inrau was taught the Gnosis without having grasped the heart,




“He knows this form is but a shell,” the Syn­these said to Sar­cel­lus, “but I don’t see Chi­gra within him.” The pea-sized eyes—lit­tle beads of sky-blue glass—turned to Inrau. “Hmm, boy? You don’t dream the Dream like the oth­ers, do you? If you did, you would rec­og­nize me. Chi­gra never failed to rec­og­nize me.”



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