Anatúrinbor Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Yeah, it's spelled out in TTT. Book basically flat out says Ses keeps Mandati from spreading the Gnosis to those who don't have Ses inside them.Where does it 'flat out' say that? Not saying that you're wrong, just curious.It was definitely implied as far as I recall, but what's strange is that there is some conflicting info about whether the Mandate themselves knew it or not. Nautzera for example, a member of the quorum, told Akka to teach Kellhus the Gnosis even though he knew that Kellhus had not grasped the heart and has no way of doing so. Granted, he said to teach him the 'Lesser Cants', but those are still Gnostic Cants.Achamian also wonders whether Seswatha would allow him to teach Kellhus the Gnosis, but then he seems surprised when Seswatha prevents him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Yeah, except that it seems that Inrau was taught the Gnosis without having grasped the heart,Honestly, it now seems almost absurd to think that the Mandate let Inrau escape even though he had knowledge of the Gnosis and had not touched the heart.But that is an interesting catch (unless it's a screw up on Bakker's part), I always assumed that Kellhus is the only one who was taught the Gnosis by the Mandate without grasping the heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Maybe there's two related but separate things going on. There's teaching the fundamentals of sorcery, in this case gnostic sorcery, to one of the Few. And then there's something that the Mandate also do which is the grasping which is what makes you dream Ses's dreams and have Chigra within you. Maybe the grasping tends to happen at a certain point in one's training kind of like Cishaurim blinding, and perhaps the grasping happens a bit after someone gets started with learning the fundamentals of the Gnosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Maybe the grasping tends to happen at a certain point in one's training kind of like Cishaurim blinding That reminds of another point against Kellhus’ assertion that the Cishaurim do not understand their own practice and that Moënghus let them blind him before he understood it either. How could they, after centuries of studying the Psukhe, not even suspect that it was emotive. And if they blind themselves ‘at a certain point in their study’, well, what was Moënghus studying before he was blinded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 IIRC they let Inaru go precisely because they thought his position in the 1,000 Temples would be useful at a later date? It does seem weird that someone possessing the Gnosis but no leash would be allowed to survive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 How could they, after centuries of studying the Psukhe, not even suspect that it was emotive. And if they blind themselves 'at a certain point in their study', well, what was Moënghus studying before he was blinded? I definitely like Lockesnow's idea that Moe blinded himself then and not before as a parallel to Kellhus learning the Gnosis without the grasping. But I'm not really sure, I think the answer to why Moe took the Psukhe while Kellhus took the Gnosis is in what Moe said about the children raised among the Inrithi and the Fanim. Rear a Dunyain among the Fanim and he will take the Psukhe, rear him with a Mandate Schoolman and he will take the Gnosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Oh how these threads turn in circles. Inrau inconsistencies have been discussed at length in two threads with the books appropriately quoted. As Sci notes the Inrau death scene is inconsistent with Akka's discussions of how the gnosis is taught in TTT. Not just heart grasping but also that Inrau could cast a spell of such power at all as he was not marked. Explanations range from Bakker error to Onkis helping him. Truly there is nothing new under the sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Of such power? It was just a short range energy burst, wasn't it? The gnosis clears fields of soldiers! Not one guy (even if it is a skin spy). Didn't even kill the bird! Inrau could have just been taught something like an anagogic by Akka to account for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Of such power? It was just a short range energy burst, wasn't it? The gnosis clears fields of soldiers! Not one guy (even if it is a skin spy). Didn't even kill the bird! Inrau could have just been taught something like an anagogic by Akka to account for that. Completely wrong. Agree that power is relative but it makes sense if you read the inconsistent TTT explanation by Akka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Oh how these threads turn in circles. Inrau inconsistencies have been discussed at length in two threads with the books appropriately quoted. As Sci notes the Inrau death scene is inconsistent with Akka's discussions of how the gnosis is taught in TTT. Not just heart grasping but also that Inrau could cast a spell of such power at all as he was not marked.There is no point in shouting "we've talked about it before!" every time something old comes up. Not everyone has read all the threads from the past decade, nor did they have to. And you weren't even part of the discussion to begin with, which makes your tantrum even more ridiculous.And I wouldn't be making claims that there isn't anything left to discuss or discover in the books. The last two threads have shown that that's not true, IMHO.Of such power? It was just a short range energy burst, wasn't it? The gnosis clears fields of soldiers! Not one guy (even if it is a skin spy). Didn't even kill the bird! Inrau could have just been taught something like an anagogic by Akka to account for that.Yeah, people tend to overplay what Inrau did in that scene and Moe's blue flashing hands, but when compared to what other Gnostic and Cishaurim sorcerers can do it's not really that impressive. The Moe thing is interesting in other ways but not in terms of power.Speaking of things that have been discussed before, it now seems to me that Kellhus's 'Heart Miracle' is the most obvious hat trick in the entire series. Can't believe I let you all fool me into thinking that there was anything miraculous about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Speaking of things discussed before, does any one know what's up with the next book? And can actually answer that without snark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Speaking of things discussed before, does any one know what's up with the next book? And can actually answer that without snark? Last thing Bakker said was he's waiting to hear back as well. IIRC there's a slim chance of of a late 2015 publication but everything points to 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 There is no point in shouting "we've talked about it before!" every time something old comes up. Not everyone has read all the threads from the past decade, nor did they have to. I'm pretty sure that we've discussed this matter at length in two threads with the other threads appropriately quoted. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Speaking of things that have been discussed before, it now seems to me that Kellhus's 'Heart Miracle' is the most obvious hat trick in the entire series. Can't believe I let you all fool me into thinking that there was anything miraculous about it. How's it done then? Kellhus put the heart....where? Of such power? It was just a short range energy burst, wasn't it? The gnosis clears fields of soldiers! Not one guy (even if it is a skin spy). Didn't even kill the bird! Inrau could have just been taught something like an anagogic by Akka to account for that. It's not the power, it's the ability to understand how the Gnosis depends on the inutterals. I feel like the Scarlet Spires could extrapolate from whatever Inaru knows. That said, it's not clear to me if the Agnosis depends on the inutterals in the way the Gnosis does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasp of Many Reeds Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 There's also the one about 144,000 souls and...something or other in WLW. Don't have the books anymore so not sure. "Skies are upended, poured as milk into the tar of night. Cities become pits for fire. The last of the righteous stand with the last of the wicked, lamenting the same woe. One Hundred and Forty-Four Thousand, they shall be called, for this is their tally, the very number of doom". The Third Revelation of Ganus the Blind. Aside from the usual apocalyptic clichés and the Biblical parallels with the 144,000, all I'd say is of interest is the question of who is righteous and who is wicked (Kellhus? the Consult?) and what is the woe they lament (damnation is my guess). I think the opening sentence may be a reference to the whirlwind of the No-God. IIRC the Hundred are supposed come through their idols to devour their worshipers, according to Fane. They are? If we're thinking of the same quote, they're only supposed to "hold open their mouths, like starving lepers, for no man living will answer their outrageous hunger", and this following their idols being shattered (see beginning of Ch. 12, TWP). Though I definitely like your imagery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Completely wrong. Agree that power is relative but it makes sense if you read the inconsistent TTT explanation by Akka.*le undecided shrug* It's not the power, it's the ability to understand how the Gnosis depends on the inutterals. I feel like the Scarlet Spires could extrapolate from whatever Inaru knows. That said, it's not clear to me if the Agnosis depends on the inutterals in the way the Gnosis does.I can't remember if the text says he draws on the gnosis, but just as much as the boss told Akka to shyster Kellhus and teach him the minor can'ts, Inaru may have been shystered into thinking his minor short range shot gun blast was full on gnosis. Again, he could have been taught an anagogic. Each POV tends to take on the bias of the person it is the POV of - thus the text may say he used the gnosis simply because the person we're dealing with really believes that. I'm prepared to accept it could be author error - but it seems like other people can't imagine they could be wrong on the matter. To me, people who think they can't be wrong are far more likely to be wrong. If only from from lack of self correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It's possible he was taught a bit of Anagogic sorcery rather than full blown Gnosis. It's an interesting question - is grasping sorcery via analogies a prerequisite for understanding the sorcery that comes from philosophical understanding? There was that excellent analogy between the Psukhe, Anagogis, and Gnosis and how one engages with a composed piece of music. Can't recall it at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Speaking of things discussed before, does any one know what's up with the next book? And can actually answer that without snark? "sometime in 2016" according to the US publisher. 2015 is no longer on the cards I think. It's not on Orbit/Overlook's schedule on Amazon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 How's it done then? Kellhus put the heart....where?I didn't mean that he did it mundanely. I think it relied on the same principle that allowed the guy in Cil-aujas to grow the eye in his heart. The trick is not in how he pulled Serwe's heart from his chest, though.Eleäzaras had watched him reach into his chest and pull out his fucking heart!Some kind of trick ... it had to be!Eleäzaras is right here. It's a trick in the sense that Kellhus pulled out Serwe's heart from his chest and made everyone think that it was his own--as we all know. That was his supposed miracle, that he pulled out his heart from his chest, not someone else's.I've seen a lot of discussions about how Kellhus might have done that, but this fact seems to have been brushed over.Why did Kellhus have to resort to tricking everyone in this way? If he grasped the god, if he genuinely performed a miracle, then why didn't he do what he made everyone think that he did? Why didn't he pull out his own heart from his chest? Because he would have died? Well, that's the thing that would have made it miraculous. If it's something that can happen--if it can be explained, as some people have explained it--then it's not a miracle as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 How's it done then? Kellhus put the heart....where? Oh you sneaky, sneaky bastard... :lol: There was that excellent analogy between the Psukhe, Anagogis, and Gnosis and how one engages with a composed piece of music. Can't recall it at the moment. Yes, I really liked that one. Its probably been at least ten threads ago though and I don't have a clue how to find something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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