SilentRoamer Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I always assumed that everyone believed he still has a heart. After all prophets can heal and sorcerers can't IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 OK so another question related to that. If the denizen of Earwa believe the soul resides in the heart, would they believe Kellhus to be soulless? And even if they thought he healed it, what happened to the soul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hmm... I didn’t think the ability to heal included growing whole hearts. But that reminds, is Kellhus capable of healing? What do you make of this line in TJE after Kellhus kills Sorweel’s protector, The severed heads of two demons, their skin blotched and aglow, hung from his girdle, making fishmouths about black-nail teeth. Scabs of salt crusted his bare sword-hand. "I am," the vision said, "Anasûrimbor Kellhus." Not sure what to make of it. According to google, a scab is a rough protective crust that forms over a cut or wound during healing. So is this just some old wound Kellhus had? Or is it a wound that Kellhus got there and it was already healing? Also, scabs of ‘salt’ implies that he was hit with a chorae? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Not sure what to make of it. According to google, a scab is a rough protective crust that forms over a cut or wound during healing. So is this just some old wound Kellhus had? Or is it a wound that Kellhus got there and it was already healing? Also, scabs of ‘salt’ implies that he was hit with a chorae?The more powerful a sorcerer and the stronger the Mark, the more they are affected by chorae. Kellhus is powerful enough that just being near Sorweel's chorae is enough to cause salting to begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hmm... I didn’t think the ability to heal included growing whole hearts. But that reminds, is Kellhus capable of healing? What do you make of this line in TJE after Kellhus kills Sorweel’s protector, Not sure what to make of it. According to google, a scab is a rough protective crust that forms over a cut or wound during healing. So is this just some old wound Kellhus had? Or is it a wound that Kellhus got there and it was already healing? Also, scabs of ‘salt’ implies that he was hit with a chorae?Well depends is earwa pre or post William harvey? If they don't know about the circulation of blood or the hearts pump action, they might be nonplussed about not having a heart.remember, Harveys bombshell provoked a century of theological and metaphysical crisis and disputation.As for the scab line. I wonder if kellhus takes regular salt and makes a salt pack "shield" sort of how lead shields against radiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Well depends is earwa pre or post William harvey? If they don't know about the circulation of blood or the hearts pump action, they might be nonplussed about not having a heart. remember, Harveys bombshell provoked a century of theological and metaphysical crisis and disputation. Totally off topic, but I've always been curious about something related to that. When I think, I "feel" like its in my head. But if I thought that the heart was the center of my soul and source of my decisions, would I perceive my internal monologue to be coming from my chest? And tangentially back on topic, speaking of the heart as the center of the soul in pre-Harvey thinking, what does the eye growing in the Scalper's heart say of the heart as the seat of the soul in Earwa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRoamer Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Rhom, Funny you should say that. I disputed either over on TSA quorum or just Skyping someone about where the seat of the intellect is in Earwa. It would be easy to apply reductionist logic and assume it must be the brain but maybe its not. After all if the heart is the seat of the soul and all thoughts in Earwa originate from the soul, so it would be interesting if the Heart being the seat of the soul was also the seat of the intellect. Also reading above - Kellhus would never have needed to heal a heart, the text clearly tells us this is Serwes heart, sure the multitudes don't know but it is made explicit to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 SR, agree but do the Earwans think Kel regrew his heart? Or that he gets by without? Or do they think he started with two hearts like the protagonist of Knife of Many Hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Also reading above - Kellhus would never have needed to heal a heart, the text clearly tells us this is Serwes heart, sure the multitudes don't know but it is made explicit to us.Correct, I was just elaborating on what HW said. What would be the thoughts of the multitude's? A prophet without a soul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Rhom, Funny you should say that. I disputed either over on TSA quorum or just Skyping someone about where the seat of the intellect is in Earwa. It would be easy to apply reductionist logic and assume it must be the brain but maybe its not. After all if the heart is the seat of the soul and all thoughts in Earwa originate from the soul, so it would be interesting if the Heart being the seat of the soul was also the seat of the intellect. Also reading above - Kellhus would never have needed to heal a heart, the text clearly tells us this is Serwes heart, sure the multitudes don't know but it is made explicit to us.per earlier discussions, dunyain use of neuropuncture indicates the brain does brain things in earwa as in earth.Perhaps the soul has no intellect though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 per earlier discussions, dunyain use of neuropuncture indicates the brain does brain things in earwa as in earth.Perhaps the soul has no intellect though? Maybe on Earwa the whole transmitter/filter idea (I think put forth by William James?) is true. Seems to make sense given the emphasis on recollection. So the brain limits the soul, which is a protrusion by the Outside into the Inward. This makes the question of damnation an interesting one if we look at the brain as what grants the illusion of individuality. Are Ciphrang and the Hundred similar dissociated identities? More confusing when you throw in the idea that a soul has animal and intellectual parts that can be shorn. Not sure Kellhus' ideas about recollection and God-as-Brahman stack up against the evidence of Shae cutting up his soul or the fact of damnation itself. OTOH, perhaps there's an out here for every damned soul - give up the idea of self, realize you're the God and you'll be re-integrated back into the divine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 this scene in TJE where Esmi keeps asking Maithanet one stupid question after the other even know she supposedly knows the answers. It's the same tactic that Moe employed on Kellhus, "And the Truth?" Kellhus asked. "What of that?" "There is no Truth for the worldborn..... "But why, my son? Why ask me what you already know?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 So there is no straight forward answer as to what the multitudes think about a heartless Kellhus? I've combed over the books, and there doesn't seem to be any reference to it. Also, does anybody have any idea as to what the deleted scene between Kellhus and Cnaüir could've been? Bakker said it was right before Serwe's burning heart scene, and said it would have clarified a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Why couldn't Kellhus just put his heart back into his chest? And it seems there was already confusion about whose heart it was, given the ambiguity in the telling. It's not clear everyone thought he pulled his own heart from his chest - unless I'm misremembering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Why couldn't Kellhus just put his heart back into his chest? And it seems there was already confusion about whose heart it was, given the ambiguity in the telling. It's not clear everyone thought he pulled his own heart from his chest - unless I'm misremembering?I guess he could. Its probably not even really a big deal, but, I was intrigued when HW brought it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I guess he could. Its probably not even really a big deal, but, I was intrigued when HW brought it up. I do think it's curious we've not seen any Kellhus-skeptics discussing that scene. I mean we know from TTT that not everyone at Caraksand believed he was the God writ small. It's kinda like if there was definitive proof of some kind of telekinesis or psychic healing in our world we could pretty much dismiss Jesus as a messiah on account of those miracles just being mutant powers. They have sorcery in their world, and demons and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I do think it's curious we've not seen any Kellhus-skeptics discussing that scene. I mean we know from TTT that not everyone at Caraksand believed he was the God writ small. It's kinda like if there was definitive proof of some kind of telekinesis or psychic healing in our world we could pretty much dismiss Jesus as a messiah on account of those miracles just being mutant powers. They have sorcery in their world, and demons and so on. And we've never, not once, seen someone healed by magic. At least that I can remember. There is qirri, which extends your lifespan and intellect. The whoreshells, waathi doll, etc, etc... Yet when you have a mortal wound, you die. No one being resurrected after battle. I know Inri was said to do some healing and other miracles chronicled in the Tusk, but we don't see any of that in book. So, why are we just to assume that the multitudes believe Kellhus just stuck his heart back in his chest, or healed it on his own? Its why I was so intrigued. There is no precedent for it, to my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 So if we take the final Moe and Nayu scene literally, we did see one healing miracle performed...by Moe. Uh oh. Not that I'm endorsing taking it literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Yeah, the no healing thing ends up sticking in the craw. I guess the idea is if Kellhus provided absolute proof he was a prophet there would be no test of faith. And that his purpose is not to heal but to make war against the enemies of the God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasp of Many Reeds Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 More confusing when you throw in the idea that a soul has animal and intellectual parts that can be shorn. Not sure Kellhus' ideas about recollection and God-as-Brahman stack up against the evidence of Shae cutting up his soul or the fact of damnation itself. OTOH, perhaps there's an out here for every damned soul - give up the idea of self, realize you're the God and you'll be re-integrated back into the divine. If we endorse the Cishaurim/Fanimry=correct path to the God, this is how I think they might be avoiding damnation. Psatma/Yatwer casts aspersions on the idea but its in her/its interest to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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