Bakker XXXVI: The Horror of Threads to Come

[Sci-2]

If we endorse the Cishaurim/Fanimry=correct path to the God, this is how I think they might be avoiding damnation. Psatma/Yatwer casts aspersions on the idea but its in her/its interest to do so.

Of course Yatwer may be just as terrified as anyone of losing Her individuality, especially since in the case of the gods it seems they possibly teeter on the edge of dissolution. Or, at the least, there seems to be a good reason to think of them as "spiders" rather than humans in their thinking.

We seem to know that the Psukhe is - if we go by its Mark-less nature - most akin to the way the gods would act in the world. Yet the Gnosis is apparently the closest one gets to purity of meaning....does that make sense?

The Gnosis is also supposedly the magic of philosophers, yet Nautzera (sp?) doesn't read Anjencis (sp?) and probably knows little of the philosophy that Akka loves to study.

So what exactly is it in the Gnosis that makes it so powerful? The technique of the inutterals? Even though the language used doesn't actually matter so long as purity is maintained? An understanding of the world in a mathematical sense? But Akka never, IIRC, shows a specialized aptitude for math?

It's kind of weird when you start looking at how sorcery works. What does it mean to invent a Cant? To discover the Daimos? Is it like how string theorists start with certain assumptions and then see what comes out or when poets search for the right word and the right rhythm?

And going back to the Hundred, how do they force their will upon the world if it's not by any of the sorcerous methodologies? Is the will of a deity the very frame of the Inward itself? Then what about Ciphrang, or the Wight? Can any of these types of entities - god/demon/wight - recollect God in the way of the Few?

[Melphis Amekia]

The Gnosis is also supposedly the magic of philosophers, yet Nautzera (sp?) doesn't read Anjencis (sp?) and probably knows little of the philosophy that Akka loves to study.

I think that's not true - it's just what Akka thinks at that moment when he talked with Nautzera because he practically hates the guy. Nautzera was probably baffled at all the previous info he was given by Achamian and that shit takes time to process. Also, we pretty much don't know anything about any sorcerer of the Mandate besides Akka(who left them) or the curicullum they have for their studies, so, unfortunately, we can't really know how much of philosophy is involved.

[Callan S.]

I think the Cish just trick the god thing - it can't tell one emotion from another.

Otherwise what is the 'right' belief is weird - Mimara isn't damned. Therefore she believes correctly? What the heck does she believe?

Or if you're sufficiently a victim you get a free pass?

Even though whole nations are damned - simply from children being taught whatever their parents believed in...but if they'd been sold into sex slavery, then they'd get a pass on the damnation?

[SilentRoamer]

Sci-2

The only scene which specifically comes to mind is (I think) in TWP when Akka is training Kellhus and they are scribbling theorems in the sand. Kellhus starts re-writing theoretical mathematics and Akka is astounded at what he was doing. This shows to me, at least, a working knowledge of theoretical mathematics. I always assumed that while Akka may not be the Maxwell of his age he was at least versed in higher order mathematics.

Also we can see how mathematics was used by Shae in the bringing down of the barricades which Emilidis erected - the diminishing to nothing of any force thrown against it.

These are to my mind the examples I can think of where sorcery and mathematics are explicitly mentioned.

Also Sci - I noticed you questioned whose heart Kellhus pulled from his chest. Does this mean you doubt it is Serwes heart? I wasn't sure if I just misunderstood you.

[SilentRoamer]

Double Post

[WDeranged]

I just finished re-reading the entire series and now I just don't know what else to read...can anyone recommend a book/series that might tickle the same bits of my brain until The Unholy Consult comes out? :bowdown:

[unJon]

Akka tells Kelhus that the Anagogic sorcery is also based on an inutteral.

[Happy Ent]

I just finished re-reading the entire series and now I just don't know what else to read...can anyone recommend a book/series that might tickle the same bits of my brain until The Unholy Consult comes out? :bowdown:

Welcome to the forum. I trust you’re aware of the three short stories mentioned in the opening post?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I just finished re-reading the entire series and now I just don't know what else to read...can anyone recommend a book/series that might tickle the same bits of my brain until The Unholy Consult comes out? :bowdown:

Welcome, as HE says the short stories are great, but, that'll take no time at all. I am almost done with Morgan's A Land Fit for Heroes series and its really good. Kinda the same as its Grimdark and Morgan test boundaries other authors don't, and plenty of intrigue. No rape aliens that I can think of, though.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

I just finished re-reading the entire series and now I just don't know what else to read...can anyone recommend a book/series that might tickle the same bits of my brain until The Unholy Consult comes out? :bowdown:

Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. Not grimdark (more re-enchantment than disenchantment) but has a similar love of florid language and philosophical exposition (more Borges than Blind Brain Theory though).

Steven Erikson's Malazan Books of the Fallen are also pretty cerebral and dark at times but not to everyone's taste (very large, very sprawling, but messy at times and has some blind avenues - also shows its RPG roots badly in some places). Perhaps try starting with Deadhouse Gates rather than Gardens of the Moon as its the stronger of the two first books and you can read them in either order.

[Melphis Amekia]

Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. Not grimdark (more re-enchantment than disenchantment) but has a similar love of florid language and philosophical exposition (more Borges than Blind Brain Theory though).

Steven Erikson's Malazan Books of the Fallen are also pretty cerebral and dark at times but not to everyone's taste (very large, very sprawling, but messy at times and has some blind avenues - also shows its RPG roots badly in some places). Perhaps try starting with Deadhouse Gates rather than Gardens of the Moon as its the stronger of the two first books and you can read them in either order.

I still get the chills I got when I read the point when

Anomander Rake turns into a dragon in Gardens of the Moon, as if he wasn't badass enough before.

Anyway, I definitely second the notion for both authors.

[Bolivar]

I'll third Erikson, I think he and Bakker complement eachother well. They were both academics who became disillusioned in their respective fields and decided to write fantasy cycles about it. Very cerebral sfuff. Note though that the world building is central to understanding Bakker's story whereas it's more like furniture in Malazan. You have to actually ignore some of it to get through the books. And while Erikson has some graphic scenes, I really wouldn't call it grimdark.

[generic]

I just finished re-reading the entire series and now I just don't know what else to read...can anyone recommend a book/series that might tickle the same bits of my brain until The Unholy Consult comes out? :bowdown:

Have you tried reading his non fantasy stuff? If not then don't and read Peter Watts instead.

[lokisnow]

So what exactly is it in the Gnosis that makes it so powerful? The technique of the inutterals? Even though the language used doesn't actually matter so long as purity is maintained? An understanding of the world in a mathematical sense? But Akka never, IIRC, shows a specialized aptitude for math?

It's kind of weird when you start looking at how sorcery works. What does it mean to invent a Cant? To discover the Daimos? Is it like how string theorists start with certain assumptions and then see what comes out or when poets search for the right word and the right rhythm?

And going back to the Hundred, how do they force their will upon the world if it's not by any of the sorcerous methodologies? Is the will of a deity the very frame of the Inward itself? Then what about Ciphrang, or the Wight? Can any of these types of entities - god/demon/wight - recollect God in the way of the Few?

Perhaps less Hawking and more Pascal?

meaning it's the combination of metaphysics and mathematics, not the isolation of one or the other, that is crucial?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Perhaps less Hawking and more Pascal?

meaning it's the combination of metaphysics and mathematics, not the isolation of one or the other, that is crucial?

I've always kind of thought of it (probably jacked from earlier threads) as

Gnosis: metaphysics explained through math - "I want everything in front of me, 45 degrees to either side, to be destroyed by planar waves of energy that will vaporize anything, starting from the level of my feet and going up to head height, every 4 inches, so that it'll be like running the army in front of me through a meat slicer"

Analogies: a description of the what you want to happen, without being able to actually say it "I want it to be like, if there was a dragon here, just blasting everything with fire."

The utterals and inutterals are just there to preserve and hone meaning. Maybe there's a small element of passion in there too (constantly describing the sorceror's 'song'.) Especially if Titirga is actually a proto-Cish.

Psukhe: Imposing your will on the world around you by sheer faith and utter belief. This would be like a musician with no formal training that is just nasty by ear. Where as if you were a gnostic sorceror, it'd be more like being classically trained.

So for American composers, The Mandate is Gershwin, The Scarlet Spires are the Eagles, Kellhus is Mingus, and Fane is Hendrix.

[Callan S.]

Still suspect the Inchoroi aren't 'aliens' at all - they are a breed of humans that went elsewhere, went into an echo chamber + self modification vicious cycle and ended up on the wrong side of whatever you might think Earwa is.

They is us, comin' home...

[kuenjato]

I just finished re-reading the entire series and now I just don't know what else to read...can anyone recommend a book/series that might tickle the same bits of my brain until The Unholy Consult comes out? :bowdown:

As others have said, there are short stories on his website Three Pound Brain, along with a full novel called Light, Time and Gravity which is definitely worth a read... I like it better than his stabs at sci-fi (Neuropath) or thriller-noir (Disciple of the Dog).

[Callan S.]

As an alternative view - I really want more disciple of the dog. A book I can recommend to the woman in my life!

[Darzin]

I just finished re-reading the entire series and now I just don't know what else to read...can anyone recommend a book/series that might tickle the same bits of my brain until The Unholy Consult comes out? :bowdown:

I would second The Book of the New Sun.

Also the Dread Empire series by Glen Cook is similar to the Second Apocalypse in a lot of ways, I remember an interview with Bakker where he was asked if it was an influence on his writing. Anyway, faith, prophecy, war and magic all play a big part in this series in a very dark setting. It's less philosophically deep, but the interesting characters, and emphasis on religion are there. I'm actually surprised more people haven't heard of it. To me it's the closest thing to Bakker's books.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

Also the Dread Empire series by Glen Cook is similar to the Second Apocalypse in a lot of ways, I remember an interview with Bakker where he was asked if it was an influence on his writing. Anyway, faith, prophecy, war and magic all play a big part in this series in a very dark setting. It's less philosophically deep, but the interesting characters, and emphasis on religion are there. I'm actually surprised more people haven't heard of it. To me it's the closest thing to Bakker's books.

I haven't read Cook but I know he's also an influence on Erikson, so another point in common between his work and Bakker's, whether or not Bakker was directly influenced by Cook or not.