Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I was thinking, I seen someone compare Seswatha's Heart to Shae's soul capturing monstrosity. That, they essentially do the same thing. So, the main players would still be Shae and Ses, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Seswatha's heart is usually compared to the Inverse Fire - a compulsion that causes everyone that witnesses it to believe strongly in...something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Seswatha's heart is usually compared to the Inverse Fire - a compulsion that causes everyone that witnesses it to believe strongly in...something. What I read somwhere is that it keeps him alive "so to speak", through the souls of those who grasp the heart. I won't claim to know what I'm talking about, but made sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'm not sure you need Moe to be alive for the "moe is fucking with y'all' theory to hold water. /etc. I could go with this... though I'm attached to the "Moe Fail" as presented in PON, if ripples of his influence remain and twist things beyond Kellhus's control, that would be neat. I don't mean to disparage all the cool theories these threads have generated--it's just that the 'superplan' conspiracy stuff reminds me too much of regular ol' conspiracy theory, or as Umberto Eco put it, "obsession with connections," to the inevitable distortion of reality (condensing complex problems to simplistic solutions). What I really hope is that Bakker manages to weave a mind-binder that hasn't been anticipated yet. In any case, I'm hoping some of y'all will develop these ideas into books of your own... we need more stuff like this rather than the bog standard puked up year after year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 What I really hope is that Bakker manages to weave a mind-binder that hasn't been anticipated yet.Me too, and really, I absolutely believe he will. Its just fun to toss around ideas and look for clues. Yet, what I love about a great book is that you never seen it coming, and only in hindsight, your like "aha". Call me what you will, but, I believe in 10-20 years Bakker's sales and popularity will have sky rocketed. I dunno, wishful thinking maybe. IMHO, TSA is the best out there, its got everything you would want in an epic fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I feel pretty good about Bakker having a mindfuck that hasn't been anticipated here or on TSA - mostly because (and this is probably wrong, but it makes me feel more involved in the universe) I feel like he has at least one active account here and there. Shit for all you guys know I could be Bakker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Just to add a small log on the fire if it turns out Moe has been plotting gloriously all along.... What if one of the many benefits of his plan was that he needed the Dunyain destroyed in addition to the Consult ultimately being destroyed and created a scenario where the Consult would come to learn the forsaken name Dunyain...an ember, and go find it in their midst in the ancient North and stomp it out. But I ultimately hope that's not true. I really hope the Dunyain are not wiped out and we get to see more of them. MSJ - I forget where exactly, but in threads of yore I wondered about the possibility that Bakker might see an eventual spike in his sales. I was probably coming at it from the same place you are (i.e., I'm a relatively new convert to fantasy and this shit is unreal, why isn't this more popular?). I personally still feel that way but have been convinced by the more seasoned takes of others on the board that it's not that likely to happen. And sadly, it probably doesn't matter how good The Unholy Consult is. The barriers to entry for the series are too great. And the author heard wolves crying off in the distance. Literary stardom, they seemed to say, was too far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I can't imagine that the Dunyain being stomped to dust would be that big of a spoiler to be crossed off of the list of things that can be shown to us. I mean, what - wow, it's a spoiler to tell us that what was implied at the end of the last book actually happened pretty much as it is? The only spoilery thing would be who actually did it, but that's not that special. And again, what would be a massive spoiler that also means that the first three books are really relevant? The Dunyain dead are certainly not that; the Dunyain dead would make the first three books almost entirely superfluous. Plus Madness slipped that we'd see more Dunyain stuff via contradicting me, so we're going to at least find out a bunch more. The most likely common cause to all of this is that Akka finds Dunyain and finds out a whole lot more about their plans - which ties back into the incompleteness theory we had earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Could people please clarify which Moe they are talking about via the Big Moe and Lil' Moe monikers. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I can't imagine that the Dunyain being stomped to dust would be that big of a spoiler to be crossed off of the list of things that can be shown to us. I mean, what - wow, it's a spoiler to tell us that what was implied at the end of the last book actually happened pretty much as it is? The only spoilery thing would be who actually did it, but that's not that special. And again, what would be a massive spoiler that also means that the first three books are really relevant? The Dunyain dead are certainly not that; the Dunyain dead would make the first three books almost entirely superfluous. Plus Madness slipped that we'd see more Dunyain stuff via contradicting me, so we're going to at least find out a bunch more. The most likely common cause to all of this is that Akka finds Dunyain and finds out a whole lot more about their plans - which ties back into the incompleteness theory we had earlier. I hope Madness spoke true. And if the Dunyain are not stomped out, I will be excited to see how/why Ishual was itself stomped at the end of the last book. A ruse? A narrow escape? ETA: Sci - I speak always of Big Moe unless otherwise stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Crackpot: Lil Moe is Meppa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 My guess is that the Ishual chapter reveals something about Seswatha (and/or Celmomas) and his ultimate plan rather than the Dunyain's own goals. Seswatha had something to do with the Dunyain arriving at Ishual. It's the best way to explain how they managed to find Ishual within a short period of time after it was constructed and no one has been able to find it ever since, not even the Consult and the wracu or the Nonmen who are all right next to it. Not to mention that just before the Dunyain arrived at Ishual almost everyone inside was wiped out by some 'plague'. The whole thing is just too coincidental and convenient for them.Also, let's not forget that Ishual wasn't just the home of the Dunyain, it was the secret redoubt of the Kuniuric high-kings before them. I think we're going to find out more about that whole period with Celmomas, Ganrelka, and the Bardic Priest, etc. What was Celmomas really doing in there (assuming that he's the uncle)? And why did the Bardic Priest give us the Consult's motto (so long as there are men there are crimes) and he's the only person to survive the plague? Just coincidence?I don't think that the Dunyain are necessarily all dead, but I do believe that they were really isolated from the word and had no knowledge of magic and the apocalypse up until whatever happened with Moenghus (or possibly when Moe sent them the dreams). That was when the Dunyain realized that there is more to the world that they knew about, and they decided to do something about it. Before that, however, they were probably just intended to be tools.Speaking of Madness' slips, he did recently post a list of the Pragma that appeared in Kellhus' flashbacks and told everyone to go check the glossary for them for whatever reason. Which to me is confirmation that there is more to them going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 What was Celmomas really doing in there (assuming that he's the uncle)? Something to do with the Celmomian prophecy. Assuming that it's true, Kellhus can't be the Aansurimbor who returns at the end of the world, he made the case himself to Achamian, “But that doesn’t make sense, Akka. The fact I’m here means nothing. Nothing. Now I’m here, and before I was in Atrithau. And if my bloodline reaches as far back as you say, then an Anasûrimbor has always been ‘here,’ wherever that might be …” Exactly. Even if you accept the tenuous argument that 'return' means 'leave Ishual and enter the three seas' then the harbinger is Moenghus, not Kellhus. But I'm not buying that either, I think the prophecy is literal: an Anasurimbor, one of Celmomas' seed, will return at the end of the world. For the prophecy to be true, Celmomas' line must have ended with him and then somehow reemerged 2000 years after his death. So how could a direct descendant of Celmomas be born now without any others having been born before him? There is only one way that could happen, "A place where my line can outlive me," the High-King said. ... "Ishual," Celmomas said, smiling at his own wit-or lack of it. He reached for his chalice of apple mead. "That's what I call it." Seswatha shook his head. "Is it stocked with beer or with concubines?" "Seeds," Celmomas replied, his eyes smiling over the rim of his cup. The golden wolf's head braided into the centre of his beard seemed to glower from beneath his wrist. "Seeds?" Seriously, if there is one series where the word 'seeds' in that context means sperm it's this one. Presumably, that seed was kept somewhere in Ishual and Moenghus took it with him when he left and used it to impregnate someone. Of course, there is a chance that the prophecy is something that Seswatha invented to goad the mandate, but assuming that it's true then my money is on the harbinger being either Mimara or Proyas. Most likely Proyas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 MSJ - I forget where exactly, but in threads of yore I wondered about the possibility that Bakker might see an eventual spike in his sales. I was probably coming at it from the same place you are (i.e., I'm a relatively new convert to fantasy and this shit is unreal, why isn't this more popular?). I personally still feel that way but have been convinced by the more seasoned takes of others on the board that it's not that likely to happen. And sadly, it probably doesn't matter how good The Unholy Consult is. The barriers to entry for the series are too great. Maybe 50-60 years? Lol, look I just have a feeling that when its all completed its gonna be twisted, mind-blowing, and like Bakker has said his self, nothing that's been done before. I think it will at some point gain its recognition. Whenever that may be.HW, good pick up on the "seeds". Although, I know your a proponent of the Axotlel tanks, I am not. Couldn't it just mean, like someone on down the road of his " seed"? That quote you gave from Kellhus to Akka, I felt was before Kellhus even believed in his divinity. At this stage, he does. I'm not sold either, that Kellhus is the harbinger, though. As I've said I think Ses is behind the Dûnyain. As, Anaturinbor said, hell the destruction of Ishual could just be a ruse, I'm leaning toward that. Here's my question, if Celmommas had Ishual built as a refuge for his kin, then why is there a Nonman style hall beneath it? I also agree Ses lead the Dûnyain there, but, also with some female Nonmen (maybe half breeds, isn't there a famous one?). They created the TTH's and that's who I believe is who Akka will find along with the Heron spear. And, we'll get a massive info dump along with it. Hell, I would not be surprised if all the Dûnyain aren't just chilling in the TTH til needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Of course, there is a chance that the prophecy is something that Seswatha invented to goad the mandate, but assuming that it's true then my money is on the harbinger being either Mimara or Proyas. Most likely Proyas.Just curious, what makes you think Proyas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Crackpot: Lil Moe is Meppa.Larry, you ALWAYS, and I mean always, have the best Nerdanel's! I'm in awe, speechless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 MSJ - I forget where exactly, but in threads of yore I wondered about the possibility that Bakker might see an eventual spike in his sales. I was probably coming at it from the same place you are (i.e., I'm a relatively new convert to fantasy and this shit is unreal, why isn't this more popular?). I personally still feel that way but have been convinced by the more seasoned takes of others on the board that it's not that likely to happen. And sadly, it probably doesn't matter how good The Unholy Consult is. The barriers to entry for the series are too great. If Bakker developed some stand-alones with more emphasis on 'commerciality,' they could work as a gateway drug to the more dense PON. It's certainly possible. I don't know if Bakker is capable of this, though. His attempts at commerciality (neuropath, disciple of the dog) were sabotaged by his intellectual obsessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 If Bakker developed some stand-alones with more emphasis on 'commerciality,' they could work as a gateway drug to the more dense PON. It's certainly possible. I don't know if Bakker is capable of this, though. His attempts at commerciality (neuropath, disciple of the dog) were sabotaged by his intellectual obsessions. You know Triskan was right about me being a general newbie too fantasy when I read TSA. But since I've read ALOT. And, I just haven't found anything that really compares. It makes zero sense to me, other than the trouble he got into with the whole Bakker vs Women ordeal. But, who know? My wife is currently just starting TTT, she loves it and I'm bombarded with questions daily about it. She doesn't get the sexism angle, I presume because she isn't looking for it. Its good, good fantasy and I can't wrap my head around why people don't love it the way we all here do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Just curious, what makes you think Proyas? I should note that this whole theory is a big crackpot, but I think the Anasûrimbor is Proyas based on this admittedly weak piece of evidence, “The memory of your forefather’s treachery...” the Emissary finally replied, his gaze lingering on Proyas, “burns bright with us. For some, Anasûrimbor is the very name of Mannish arrogance and disorder.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRoamer Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Echoing DR's comment that the whole thing escalated a bit quickly there... I would like to see some more shorts from Bakker, I loved the Atrocity Tales especially The False Sun. I think some commercialised short Atrocity Tales would be a good entry into the world of Earwa. My personal choice would be: Some Sorcerous Battle between different schools in roughly PoN era.Some Serwa scene where we see a seemingly stable half Dunyain PoV.Something creepy involving cute little Kel.Meppa going torrential.EDIT: Definetely something from the past ages, like The Breaking of the Gates or the early Cunoroi-Inchoroi wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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