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Bakker XXXVI: The Horror of Threads to Come


Madness

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Echoing DR's comment that the whole thing escalated a bit quickly there...

I would like to see some more shorts from Bakker, I loved the Atrocity Tales especially The False Sun. I think some commercialised short Atrocity Tales would be a good entry into the world of Earwa. My personal choice would be:

Some Sorcerous Battle between different schools in roughly PoN era.

Some Serwa scene where we see a seemingly stable half Dunyain PoV.

Something creepy involving cute little Kel.

Meppa going torrential.

EDIT: Definetely something from the past ages, like The Breaking of the Gates or the early Cunoroi-Inchoroi wars.

I think a Lil Moe POV would be awesome, also, get some more POV's from Kellhus so we know what's going on in his mind now. That would be great.
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Echoing DR's comment that the whole thing escalated a bit quickly there...

I would like to see some more shorts from Bakker, I loved the Atrocity Tales especially The False Sun. I think some commercialised short Atrocity Tales would be a good entry into the world of Earwa. My personal choice would be:

Some Sorcerous Battle between different schools in roughly PoN era.

Some Serwa scene where we see a seemingly stable half Dunyain PoV.

Something creepy involving cute little Kel.

Meppa going torrential.

EDIT: Definetely something from the past ages, like The Breaking of the Gates or the early Cunoroi-Inchoroi wars.

I agree with your picks, except for the last one. I think the Cuno Inchoroi wars are so epic precisely because they happen in the shadowy far past, and there are a lot of gaps in the readers' knowledge that are filled in with imagination. Those wars should remain somewhat obscure in my opinion.

I would also love to see more short stories about the Mandati. For example, we're told that the Consult skirmished openly with the Mandate until about 300 years ago, when the Consult suddenly disappeared. This is is a time period we don't know much about, and I would love to have seen what these "skirmishes" entailed. Or how about the fact that the Mandate chapter house in Atrithau has gone silent within the last hundred years (I think), and that Aterysus has sent several expeditions to reestablish contact, none of which have returned. A short tale that follows one of those doomed expeditions would be awesome.

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Yeah Houndhelm I like that idea regarding the Mandati missions - doomed sorcerous slogs FTW!



Also might be interesting to see Akka getting battle tested pre-PoN, I think he has probably creamed a few Myunsai over the years :)



MSJ - I think a Kellhus PoV at this point in time should be almost incomprehensible, having embraced the Thousand fold thought you could right an entire book on a single conversation extrapolation in Kellhus mind.. at least thats how I see it now. Also I think Kellhus endgame is going to be absolutley crucial, somehow tying in with Seswatha. Big Moe is just a big distraction.


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MSJ - I think a Kellhus PoV at this point in time should be almost incomprehensible, having embraced the Thousand fold thought you could right an entire book on a single conversation extrapolation in Kellhus mind.. at least thats how I see it now. Also I think Kellhus endgame is going to be absolutley crucial, somehow tying in with Seswatha. Big Moe is just a big distraction.

I'd love to know what went down when Kellhus "talked" to Seswatha.

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Can't see how Moenghus is a 'distraction' when the text explicitly says that he failed and died. Bakker wants us to think that there is nothing more to Moenghus' plan, that Kellhus took over, whether that's true or not remains to be seen. Either way, I definitely think that Kellhus' role in TUC is going to be crucial, after all, why would Moenghus spend thirty years preparing Earwa for Kellhus unless he wants him to do something important?

Anyway, I need to reread the Pragma flashbacks to look for any clues or foreshadowing as to a future role. I do recall that they were described by Kellhus as having 'a face of stone' - Kellhus described Moe's face using very similar terms TTT. Maybe Moenghus was a Pragma himself.

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Well I think your view on Moneghus is pretty clear but it doesn't mean I have to agree. Sure I think Moe prepared the path for Kellhus but i'm not sure Kellhus going batshit nuts and apparently performing a miracle before shanking him was high on his to do list.



Not being confrontational I just don't think your speculations have any more merit than mine - specifically that Big Moe fucked up.


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Did I say that you had to agree? :dunno: Not trying to be confrontational but I just find this strange considering that I said it remains to be seen whether you're right or not in the very post you replied to.

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Also, let's not forget that Ishual wasn't just the home of the Dunyain, it was the secret redoubt of the Kuniuric high-kings before them. I think we're going to find out more about that whole period with Celmomas, Ganrelka, and the Bardic Priest, etc. What was Celmomas really doing in there (assuming that he's the uncle)? And why did the Bardic Priest give us the Consult's motto (so long as there are men there are crimes) and he's the only person to survive the plague? Just coincidence?

These are all great points. Does anyone have any suggestion as to who the Bardic Priest was? I agree with Anaturinbor, he has to be of importance and the bringer of the plague too. Makes me think of a Consult connection definitely. Don't we see him somewhere else too?

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That such a brilliant series of books is so underappreciated is more depressing and hope-killing than anything in the books themselves. We live in a dark void of a world.

Will the publishers even be willing to publish the concluding duology of the series if Bakker finds time to write it?

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These are all great points. Does anyone have any suggestion as to who the Bardic Priest was? I agree with Anaturinbor, he has to be of importance and the bringer of the plague too. Makes me think of a Consult connection definitely. Don't we see him somewhere else too?

Did the Bardic Priest bring the plague? I don't recall that. I really should reread TDTCB prologue. I pick up something every time I do. It really is a summation in foreshadowing of many points in the series. Consult and Dunyain philosophy. Magic and the gods. Wolves at the gate. Might look for 'seeds' when I read this time.
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Did the Bardic Priest bring the plague? I don't recall that. I really should reread TDTCB prologue. I pick up something every time I do. It really is a summation in foreshadowing of many points in the series. Consult and Dunyain philosophy. Magic and the gods. Wolves at the gate. Might look for 'seeds' when I read this time.

I don't know if he did, truly. But as Anaturinbor said, he survived. And that eye creeps me out.

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You know Triskan was right about me being a general newbie too fantasy when I read TSA. But since I've read ALOT. And, I just haven't found anything that really compares. It makes zero sense to me, other than the trouble he got into with the whole Bakker vs Women ordeal. But, who know? My wife is currently just starting TTT, she loves it and I'm bombarded with questions daily about it. She doesn't get the sexism angle, I presume because she isn't looking for it. Its good, good fantasy and I can't wrap my head around why people don't love it the way we all here do.

While I agree that nothing else really compares in epic fantasy, PON is not exactly an easy read for a neophyte. For those of us who prefer to be challenged and extend ourselves as readers, sure, the language will captivate and the initial onslaught of worldbuilding--dense and not easily digestible--will intrigue. But fantasy as a genre was, for decades, a conservative field, and many engage with it for escapism as a means unto itself--thus explaining Terry Brooks's longevity, the rise of Sanderson, and the occasional publisher-driven hype-book offering much-the-same-as-always (the Unremembered, for example).

As Happy Ent once put it on these threads, Bakker offers a glimpse of a world we've escaped from, and that glimpse is rather bleak. Plus, his efforts in offering literary prose offends the more conventional mindset desiring Salvatore-esque S&S romps. Merely witness how often "pretentious" appears in online pans of TDTCB. Bakker himself has lamented on how that book isn't the greatest introduction to his world, and it's not: It takes nearly half the book to really get going, it's overcrowded and (seemingly) tangental at first; it has a fantastic second half escalation but getting there is the key.

A commercial stand-alone could offer Bakker's overt strengths (action, dramatic escalation, character building) and parcel out the more alienating material ( the philosophy, misanthropy, various gross out horror stuff) in a reserved, calculated manner. Personally, the philosophy has grown kinda old over five books, so I'd like him to try something else and/or in an alternative fashion. Not sure he's capable of it, though; too close to the text and all that.

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It takes nearly half the book to really get going, it's overcrowded and (seemingly) tangental at first; it has a fantastic second half escalation but getting there is the key.

Mhh, it was actually the other way around for me. I found TDTCB quite easy to get into and captivating (especially the apocalypse flashbacks), but increasingly tedious to get through in the second half once Kellhus took over the scene. He's interesting as a "what if?" thought experiment, he's no fun to read about as a character. I couldn't even finish the book on my first try and almost gave up on the series as a result. Thankfully, I gave it another chance at a later date and then devoured the entire series in one go.

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Mhh, it was actually the other way around for me. I found TDTCB quite easy to get into and captivating (especially the apocalypse flashbacks), but increasingly tedious to get through in the second half once Kellhus took over the scene. He's interesting as a "what if?" thought experiment, he's no fun to read about as a character. I couldn't even finish the book on my first try and almost gave up on the series as a result. Thankfully, I gave it another chance at a later date and then devoured the entire series in one go.

The second half has significantly more action and an escalating psychological conflict roiling through the text (Cnaiur vs. Kellhus). The first half has Akka dawdling around, being a spy and inadvertently getting his former apprentice killed, Esme dawdling around, reflecting on what it's like to be a whore, and the corrupt Nansur family plotting and such. I love it personally, but it feels very tangental and only loosely connected and those who sup at traditional tables (even if fantasy itself has changed drastically in the last twenty-five years) will find this off putting. Kellhus actually never alienated me, which is surprising, as I've expressed my general distaste for 'mastermind' hero/villains elsewhere on this thread; I chalk this up to my love for RSB's prose, which tends to pull me through.

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For me it was this line right after Cnaiur wakes up and hears only the rushing water of the river,




For some reason, the first clear thought to arise from his misery was of his Chorae.





The Chorae which he pressed into the mud in the previous scene. I think that Moe always planned to be Choraed by Cnaiur, and this was him making sure that Nayu didn't lose his Chorae. It might be nothing though.


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It's been weird watching this 'Moe got what he wanted' movement build up. Reminds me of a Red Dwarf episode where JFK is his own shooter.



Anyway, if this thread hits the second page enough, is it's population reduced beneath the sacral number and the gods are left howling at its gate, like wolves?


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It's so agonizing to think about. It is plausible that the most literal reading of the text is correct: Kellhus saw the TTT surpass Moe's grasp of it, and the rest is history.



But the unified theory of lockesnow is also quite plausible if you stack all of the evidence. And constant teasing of the reader with "30 years, Father. What power you must have..." kind of stuff only to just see Moe snuffed out.



And then that kicking of the skull...


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