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Women in power [book spoilers]


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I just want to take this opportunity to rant about the fact that this show even takes away the little places women actually can exert power the books have left:



- Cersei is not Queen Regent, she does not openly and officially rules in her son's name but rules in an unofficial/informal kind of way that makes no sense to me or anyone who actually understands how the power structure works in the books.



- There seem to be no changed laws of succession in Dorne - or if there are than it doesn't matter in the show as Doran Martell apparently doesn't have a daughter.



- Stannis does not proclaim or call Shireen his heir.



Did I miss anything?


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I just want to take this opportunity to rant about the fact that this show even takes away the little places women actually can exert power the books have left:

- Cersei is not Queen Regent, she does not openly and officially rules in her son's name but rules in an unofficial/informal kind of way that makes no sense to me or anyone who actually understands how the power structure works in the books.

- There seem to be no changed laws of succession in Dorne - or if there are than it doesn't matter in the show as Doran Martell apparently doesn't have a daughter.

- Stannis does not proclaim or call Shireen his heir.

Did I miss anything?

Why isn't Margaery on the small council meetings?

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Show Dany feels a lot more powerful than book Dany to me?



I'm a little confused about what the OP means? Yes, I think the show has changed some of the feminine power dynamics but no, I don't think the show has made it's women less powerful than the books?


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Judging by the period , I think women had no say in anything so they used and manipulated men into getting what they want.

Seriously how long would you want Cercei to bee queen regent? Tommen is frikkin married and had s**. How can cercei baby sit him anymore.

In cercei's words "I should have been born a boy"(to enjoy full power). Since she is a woman she always regrets how she must pass it to someone.

Stannis is not even king yet. Has no other children. Who else would he name? :duh He already called his daughter princess Shireen.

The only place where women are equals is in dorne. The show decided to give Doran one son, because it has something to do with the plot (coz Dany is a woman). Did they really "have" to give him a female heir just for the sake of it?

The sand snakes are pretty badass and dont have to listen to anyone. Now that seems like a good way to present powerful woman rather than a female heir or a forever powerful cercei.

Arya is another one. She never liked the idea of being a princess. She liked fighting. (Some say she may ride a dragon)

Brienne is huge and fully capable of crushing a few guys.

Dany is the queen and is gonna invade westeros !!

I do not know how you can still rant about no powerful women.

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Tommen is frikkin married and had s**.

I don't think this is the type of forum that you have to be shy and censor the word SEX and fuck. I mean, we are watching a show with boobs and a dick or two and they have definitely said more vulgar words in the show.

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Yeah, that Margaery has to go through Tommen is a joke, too. Why doesn't she marshal the Tyrell men and frees her brother herself? Why is going to whine about this to her grandmother now - what is she going to do? Hit the sparrows with her cane?



We had this thing in season 3 & 4 with the Tyrells, too. Margaery and Olenna were running the Tyrells without actually running them - which made them look utterly stupid. What person with half a brain would allow TV Mace to represent or officially 'lead' the Tyrells? If Olenna negotiates with Tywin she should have been on the council in the show.



In the show you grow of age at 18. Tommen could easily be around 16, old enough to have sex with Margaery but too young to rule. Just as Joffrey wasn't 18 when he died if I remember correctly.



This whole portrayal of Tommen being helpless to do anything sucks, too. The boy may not be a Joffrey in the books but he is eight years old, completely incapable of taking charge. Yet TV Tommen is older and a variation of the AFfC scenario makes little to no sense in the show if it is not carefully crafted (which this travesty is not).



Why doesn't Ser Kevan circumvent Cersei and directly talks to Tommen? How is it that Tommen is content with allowing Cersei to unofficially run the government if his wife Margaery should actually want him to take charge (because she controls him now) and be present at the council meetings? How the hell could Margaery allow Mace to leave KL for Braavos?



If they had kept Cersei in an official position of power there could have been a struggle between a Margaery-influenced Tommen and the lawful Queen Regent Cersei Lannister.



This is not about women being warriors and women being assassins. It is about women in political power. And the show sucks at that topic. They even ruined Sansa in that regard as she ends up in Bolton control for the time being which is not an environment in which she can actively charge - which might the ending of her Vale story, though.


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Yeah, that Margaery has to go through Tommen is a joke, too. Why doesn't she marshal the Tyrell men and frees her brother herself? Why is going to whine about this to her grandmother now - what is she going to do? Hit the sparrows with her cane?

...

We had this thing in season 3 & 4 with the Tyrells, too. Margaery and Olenna were running the Tyrells without actually running them - which made them look utterly stupid. What person with half a brain would allow TV Mace to represent or officially 'lead' the Tyrells? If Olenna negotiates with Tywin she should have been on the council in the show.

...

Why doesn't Ser Kevan circumvent Cersei and directly talks to Tommen? How is it that Tommen is content with allowing Cersei to unofficially run the government if his wife Margaery should actually want him to take charge (because she controls him now) and be present at the council meetings? How the hell could Margaery allow Mace to leave KL for Braavos?

1) Because in Westeros (save dorne), women do not legally hold power in their own right except as a last resort, and when married they hold no power in their own right. All of Margaery's power is through her husband - she is a Baratheon not a Tyrell. Technically speaking, she doesn't have power over the Tyrells anymore. I also imagine that many of the Tyrell bannermen would find following a young woman a hard pill to swallow. Olenna, on the other hand, is still a Tyrell, and in Mace's absence is the highest ranking member of the family present. Futhermore, the Tyrell men have spent the last 30+ years following her lead - they are used to it, and while Marg is being groomed as Olenna's successor there's no evidence she is considered as head of the family by anyone.

2) Same as above. Mace legally has all of the power. Olenna has soft power but she can't be considered a legitimate candidate to be on the council. The only female council members so far have been Cersei as queen regent/mother and probably future a Dornish woman, and Dorne has different rules.

3) Good question about Kevan. But, personally, I felt the same in the book. I never fully understood why someone didn't just remove her and name themselves Tommen's Regent instead. I don't see a lot of difference between Queen Mother and Queen Regent - you're in charge if you put yourself there and no one removes you - that's what Cersei did in both mediums. The show she is being somewhat more subtle by saying everything she is doing is what Tommen told her.

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1) Because in Westeros (save dorne), women do not legally hold power in their own right except as a last resort, and when married they hold no power in their own right. All of Margaery's power is through her husband - she is a Baratheon not a Tyrell. Technically speaking, she doesn't have power over the Tyrells anymore. I also imagine that many of the Tyrell bannermen would find following a young woman a hard pill to swallow. Olenna, on the other hand, is still a Tyrell, and in Mace's absence is the highest ranking member of the family present. Futhermore, the Tyrell men have spent the last 30+ years following her lead - they are used to it, and while Marg is being groomed as Olenna's successor there's no evidence she is considered as head of the family by anyone.

2) Same as above. Mace legally has all of the power. Olenna has soft power but she can't be considered a legitimate candidate to be on the council. The only female council members so far have been Cersei as queen regent/mother and probably future a Dornish woman, and Dorne has different rules.

3) Good question about Kevan. But, personally, I felt the same in the book. I never fully understood why someone didn't just remove her and name themselves Tommen's Regent instead. I don't see a lot of difference between Queen Mother and Queen Regent - you're in charge if you put yourself there and no one removes you - that's what Cersei did in both mediums. The show she is being somewhat more subtle by saying everything she is doing is what Tommen told her.

And besides all of this, Olenna is experienced, funny and reasonably intelligent, whilst Margery and Cersie are kind of emotional flakes. If Olenna was my boss, I'd respect her. If it was Cersie or Margery, I'd take the piss out of them every chance I had. It's nothing to do with men or women and all do to with whose brain works properly :D

Yes, Westeros may be a very paternal environment, in which the laws of the land very much favor the men but I'd wager that the men in Westeros still pay more head to the women that act like they deserve it and vice versa.

Why doesn't Ser Kevan circumvent Cersei and directly talks to Tommen? How is it that Tommen is content with allowing Cersei to unofficially run the government if his wife Margaery should actually want him to take charge (because she controls him now) and be present at the council meetings? How the hell could Margaery allow Mace to leave KL for Braavos?

Re Mace and Bravos - Mace is a dimwitted fool, Tommen is still a simple minded boy, Margery is an emotionally driven bitch and Cersie is a slightly more intelligent bitch, so, in this battle of wits between the verging on dumb and dumbers, it was not hard for Cersie to convince Mace that it really is a privilege to go to Bravos. With Mace believing his mission to Bravos is important and not actually his funeral, he would have convinced Margery the same and given her no reason to panic. Margery used Tommen to have standard daughter in law powerplays with Cersie but only started playing Tommen seriously after Loras was imprisoned.

Kevan quite explicitly said that, if the King wants him, he can come get him. Kevan will respond to the King's direct bidding but isn't going to interfere with the dynamics between mother and son. Unlike Tywin, I don't think Kevan is as hellbent on Lannister supremacy - he's happy with Casterly Rock. And, Kevan is embarrassed of his son becoming a religious freak, so probably just wants to distance himself from the whole cesspool that is King's Landing and prepare Casterly Rock for the winter.

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MyLittleFinger,



well, 'Boy only' clubs are misogynistic, of course. And Danny Flint's rape exemplifies that for the Night's Watch, don't you think?



A spoon of knife and fork,



you are not making sense there. Margaery is the Queen of Westeros. She has her own household knights, her own guard, her own power base - or would have, if the show would make sense. Book Margaery has all that. Nothing in the show suggests that there is even such a thing as a Tyrell army or powerful bannermen as they are neither seen nor mentioned. TV Mace certainly can't command an army let alone bind his shoes on his own.



My point with Olenna was that we had her talking to Tywin as if she was the head of House Tyrell. If this was her effective position in the show - and it seems to be the case as she publicly humbles Mace in front of Lord Tywin in season 4 - Mace does not have any real or official power. Olenna does not have to go through him - as she does in the books - but she can talk directly to Tywin and others. Which means she is in charge.



You are getting things wrong about the Regency and the title of Queen Dowager (or Queen Mother, which is not used in the books). The latter is a title referring to the fact that this woman is the widow of the former king or the mother of the present king, effectively stating that she is the old queen. It is an honorific, nothing more. The Regency, on the other hand, is an office of great power. The regent(s) rule in the name of the king while he is in his minority. If a lord is named regent he is 'Lord Regent', if a prince is named regent he 'Prince Regent' (we had such an instance during the Dance when Aemond Targaryen ruled as Prince Regent in the name of Aegon II), and if a queen is named regent she is 'Queen Regent'.



Cersei takes over the government of the Realm as Queen Regent after the coup against Ned Stark - who was named Lord Regent in Robert's will. The Small Council confirmed Cersei as Queen Regent and she held that office ever since - under Kings Joffrey and Tommen - until she is incarcerated (then the Small Council decides to appoint Ser Kevan as the new regent).



As Queen Regent Cersei is the most powerful person in the Realm. She is acting for the minor king in his name and is technically above the Hand of the King (who would normally report to the king but receives his orders now from the regent). In the books Tywin wants to take the regency from Cersei but dies before he can do it - the Small Council in itself has no authority to take the regency from Cersei. And even if they tried they would then go against the Lady of Casterly Rock and mother of the king - a very bad idea in any case.


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You are getting things wrong about the Regency and the title of Queen Dowager (or Queen Mother, which is not used in the books). The latter is a title referring to the fact that this woman is the widow of the former king or the mother of the present king, effectively stating that she is the old queen. It is an honorific, nothing more. The Regency, on the other hand, is an office of great power.

I do understand that technically speaking Queen Regent is a much more powerful title than Queen Dowager. However the adages about power apply no less to one than the other. A Queen Regent Cersei only has as much power as she is allowed, same as Queen Dowager. The show did a really good job demonstrating how quickly Cersei's supposed legal authority crumbled when the King (Joffery) or the Hand (Tywin) asserted their power. Kevan could have done the same, and IMO this was also true in the books. Would it be seen as an illegal coup in the book version? Maybe, but considering how few and weak are Cersei's friends people would look the other way.

In contrast, Olenna is nothing more than Lady Dowager of Highgarden, but she is incredibly powerful and influential because people believe her to have power and she has demonstrated leadership for the last 30 years. That's why she can meet with Tywin, scheme with Littlefinger and rule Highgarden in all but name. Yet, she is not on the King's Small Council, nor would she be sitting in Lord Tyrell's seat in Highgarden), because publicly and legally, she has no power.

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Well, in the books historically women sat on the Small Council - both officially (Tyanna of the Tower and Lady Mysaria, both as Mistresses of Whisperers) and unofficially (Elaena Targaryen as Master of Coin). The show does not reflect that.



Regents also have only power over a time (or share their power with colleagues as was the case during the Regency of Aegon III) which sort of invites intrigue and plots. However, Cersei is very much in control of things until Tywin returns to the city - and since he is Cersei's father the obedience of the children sort of kicks in and makes his job much easier - but he did not yet succeed by the time of his death. Cersei was still Queen Regent. And Cersei did not allow Tyrion to completely outmaneuver/depose her.



Kevan and anyone else had neither the legal authority nor the power to challenge Cersei's hold to the Regency after Tywin's death. As Cersei has pointed out, Kevan is nothing but a household knight in the service of her father. He owns no lands nor titles, and while he may have some incomes of his own as he claims he cannot hope to challenge the Lady of Casterly Rock or the Iron Throne.



Olenna isn't in control of anything, by the way. At least not in the books. She does not exert any direct control over the Tyrell affairs or Highgarden's bannermen. That's Mace's doing. Unless she wasn't lying the whole Renly idea was Mace's and Loras' brainchild, and she was against it and couldn't prevent it.



The show makes it appear as if Mace is a complete moron who has publicly answer to his mother and can be humilatated by her in front of others. Yet it fails to transform this sort of real power to formal power by using the amount of real power Olenna/Margaery have in their family to demand that they also sit on the Small Council/have a say in the governance of the Realm.


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Well, in the books historically women sat on the Small Council - both officially (Tyanna of the Tower and Lady Mysaria, both as Mistresses of Whisperers) and unofficially (Elaena Targaryen as Master of Coin). The show does not reflect that.

Regents also have only power over a time (or share their power with colleagues as was the case during the Regency of Aegon III) which sort of invites intrigue and plots. However, Cersei is very much in control of things until Tywin returns to the city - and since he is Cersei's father the obedience of the children sort of kicks in and makes his job much easier - but he did not yet succeed by the time of his death. Cersei was still Queen Regent. And Cersei did not allow Tyrion to completely outmaneuver/depose her.

Kevan and anyone else had neither the legal authority nor the power to challenge Cersei's hold to the Regency after Tywin's death. As Cersei has pointed out, Kevan is nothing but a household knight in the service of her father. He owns no lands nor titles, and while he may have some incomes of his own as he claims he cannot hope to challenge the Lady of Casterly Rock or the Iron Throne.

Olenna isn't in control of anything, by the way. At least not in the books. She does not exert any direct control over the Tyrell affairs or Highgarden's bannermen. That's Mace's doing. Unless she wasn't lying the whole Renly idea was Mace's and Loras' brainchild, and she was against it and couldn't prevent it.

The show makes it appear as if Mace is a complete moron who has publicly answer to his mother and can be humilatated by her in front of others. Yet it fails to transform this sort of real power to formal power by using the amount of real power Olenna/Margaery have in their family to demand that they also sit on the Small Council/have a say in the governance of the Realm.

Quoting GRRM "The books are the books and the show is the show".

Its a story they make. Its a fictional world. If they said Ser pounce sits on the iron throne, then we must accept it.

Its kindof weird to question why women are or are not in power in a fantasy story. Its just how the thought how they would write it. So what?

Also anyone in "power" cant do anything they want. Mr.Mad king learnt it the hard way.

Like I said in the middle ages men fought wars so commanders were good candidates for leaders. Their sons inherited their power and that grows weak if he is a dick (Tommen).

Women manipulated and schemed men to get what they want. That is what is depicted by D&D. Its not some bias.

Power lies were men believe it resides. Its just a trick, a shadow on the wall. :)

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This talk about the books being the books and the show being the show is just talk so that people don't use book stuff to argue for stuff that happens in the show (or vice versa, although that's utter stupidity).



The show doesn't tell its own story. It has adapted ASoIaF for television. That's it.



The question of this thread is how the show fails to show women in power that are depicted as such in the books.


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This talk about the books being the books and the show being the show is just talk so that people don't use book stuff to argue for stuff that happens in the show (or vice versa, although that's utter stupidity).

The show does tell its own story. It has adapted ASoIaF for television. That's it.

The question of this thread is how the show fails to show women in power that are depicted as such in the books.

I completely agree with you.

IMO it is fucking mind numbing that Cersei isn't the Queen Regent on the show.

The entire point of Cersei's arc is that when she finally gets all the power she craved her entire life, she completely fucks it up because she can't let go of the fear that someone will take away her power and marginalize her again so her paranoia dials up to 500 levels and makes her reckless to the point where she self destructs and causes her own downfall. Its a very classic Greek tragedy type arc and one that's beautiful in its own dark twisted way.

with Cersei not being Queen Regent and Lady of Casterly Rock on the show and everyone just being like "lol whatever Cersei's just queen mother". it fundamentally changes the meaning of her arc. its a lot more simple and soapy. its been done a billion times with that of the aging mother furiously trying to undermine her daughter in law. I mean the books also touches on that theme a little bit but its hardly the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Cersei's arc. but I can't say I'm too surprised this happened because it seemed pretty obvious when they cast Natalie Dormer as Margaery blegh

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The Regent stuff is so messed up in the show and has been for a while. If Cersei isn't a regent, why is everyone obeying her? What is she doing on the small council?

I guess because they're just sycophants? But why would a washed up queen dowager have sycophants attaching to her in the first place?

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The Regent stuff is so messed up in the show and has been for a while. If Cersei isn't a regent, why is everyone obeying her? What is she doing on the small council?

Because she nominated herself, because Tommen is in her pocket, and because everybody fears another power struggle that would ensure if they tried to publically depose Cersei.

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The Regent stuff is so messed up in the show and has been for a while. If Cersei isn't a regent, why is everyone obeying her? What is she doing on the small council?

How do you expect them to expell her from the small council? The only choices are to do it by force, which is not viable as it will destablelise everything again. No one wants that. The other choice is for them to go on strike or resign in protest ala Kevan Lannister, which will most likely end up with their positions being replaced by any Tom Dick or Harry. They don't want to give up their positions too. So they just continue on. That's what people do when they have too much to lose, they will continue with the status quo as long as it doesn't hurt them personally. Never mind if it's the best thing for the kingdom or not. That's what is happening in our real world politics too.

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