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Women in power [book spoilers]


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TV Cersei doesn't have a seat on the council. She is there in an informal capacity 'representing the king' (who for some reason isn't there). 'You are a woman. Get out!' should do the trick of expelling her in the world the show is depicting. That this doesn't happen shows how inconsistent their 'concept' is.



The more you think about it the lesser sense it makes, really. Why isn't Margaery pushing Tommen into giving her Cersei's place on the council? Why is Margaery content with the obviously empty and powerless position of being queen (hello there, imprisoned brother of the queen!) and not trying to get Tommen to stand up to his mother or replace Cersei in a meaningful capacity? If Tommen is a man grown in the show then Cersei would indeed wield no official power and could indeed be cut off power in a heartbeat. All it needed would be a word of the king. Or he would not have to say something - actually attending his own council's sessions would be enough. There would be no need for Cersei to be there if Tommen was there in the setting of the show, no? The idea that Tommen could resist Margaery after one (or another) round of Anne Boleyn sex seems rather unlikely. Yet she apparently doesn't want to rule or wield power herself.



It makes no sense.



I'm also not understanding what purpose Olenna could have now. What is she going to do - plot against/negotiate with Cersei and the High Septon? Yeah, that's going to work! The Tyrells are a joke in this series because women can't have any real power and all power the Tyrells have is in the hands of their women. Loras, the only male Tyrell (there is no Mace), was effectively a moron and an idiot since season 3. All he did was having sex and giving away secrets he should (and would) have kept if he had a brain. But we are supposed to be believe this guy is the heir to Highgarden (and presumably trained to rule). How convincing is that? An old woman soon to die is the brains of House Tyrell, her granddaughter is the queen not in charge of her house, and her son and only grandson are morons who would forgive to breathe if she would not tell them how to do it. In both the worlds of the show and the books Mace and Loras Tyrell would not survive a day after Olenna's death.


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Yeah, I still struggle to understand who's supposed to hold the power officially?



Apparently not Cersei since she's only Queen Mother as Kevan notes.


Not the Small Council as a whole since they let themselves to be picked apart without a protest by a woman who by the looks of it simply invited herself to their meetings and pretends she belongs.


Not Tommen since he never showed up at any of the Small Council meeting and the encounter with sparrows appears to be his first attempt at ruling. He acts less interested in being a king than his eight-year-old book counterpart.



I mean, am I take it to mean that Tommen is old enough to rule, but he's too lazy to even pretend he's doing something, or is he too young to rule on his own, but the Small Council is too ineffective to choose a regent? Mind boggles.


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Exactly.



And it is not that you could not craft an interesting story around a more mature Tommen and a sexual relationship between him and Margaery. Far from it. But two women fighting for control over the king behind the scenes only makes sense if that king actually rules and they can rule through him.



But TV Tommen is a powerless, ineffectual, and absentee king. Nobody wields any power through him.



By the way: How the hell did Qyburn get his council seat? Cersei chose him, of course, but are we to believe now that Pycelle would not complain about that to Tommen? And why the hell would Tommen honor his mother's wishes in that instance?



The problem there is that we never see Cersei and Tommen interact over matters of state - that is, we don't even know why or how it is that Tommen sort of lets Cersei run things unofficially. Does he like her all that much? Does he think she is competent? We don't know... And why the hell would he ask her to leave for Casterly Rock and not, say, first remove her and her crony from his council? Asking the very person to leave you have first (presumably) entrusting to rule in your name sort of cripples your government... Imagine what would have happened if Cersei had actually gone to Casterly Rock - Tommen's government would have disintegrated as their is neither a Hand nor a clear chain of command.



Hell, this Tommen version is the worst possible version we could have gotten as he is much older but still behaves as a worser version of the eight-year-old from AFfC. That version actually tried to stand up to Cersei, and showed interest to grow into his role.


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to me it seems that TV Margaery is only interested in the social aspect of being queen, not actually in wanting to make political decisions.



and that TV Tommen isn't really interested in ruling that much and is content with Cersei being on the small council. TV Tommen did try to stand up to Cersei in regards to the Loras arrest but he failed.



TV Tommen makes sense to me for the most part but I just really fucking hate that they sexualized him, there was absolutely 0 sense for them to go out of their way to consummate the marriage except just to get Natalie naked and drive Cersei a little crazier.



and I've said it before and I'll say it again, Show Margaery made Book Cersei's mistake in thinking that sexual manipulation is the way to totally control a man


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This talk about the books being the books and the show being the show is just talk so that people don't use book stuff to argue for stuff that happens in the show (or vice versa, although that's utter stupidity).

The show doesn't tell its own story. It has adapted ASoIaF for television. That's it.

The question of this thread is how the show fails to show women in power that are depicted as such in the books.

To the contrary, what is utter stupidity is not accepting that certain aspects of an adaptation may differ from the source, especially when both the creators of the adaptation (D&D) and the source (GRRM) state they are their own thing in certain places.

Adaptation means modifications, adjustment - changing from 1 format to another. If you do not like or cannot accept the changes, 'well, that's just your opinion man'. It does not mean that the adaptation in question has failed to deliver on the medium it has been adapted to, rather it suggests that the opinion is based on a mindset that finds the concept of change difficult.

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Adaptation means modifications, adjustment - changing from 1 format to another. If you do not like or cannot accept the changes, 'well, that's just your opinion man'.

It is still interesting to examine what they changed, or omitted and what they didn't change, and what they added. I'm confused as to why this aggravates some people.

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Tommen lets Cersei run things because he doesn't want to. He just wants to fuck Margaery, play with Ser Pounce, and eat. He's a perfectly decent kid, but he's just that. A kid. A lazy, horny kid.

Cersei is in control in an unofficial official position. I see it as she's still the boss and no one will tell her otherwise. No matter the titles or positions, she is still the King's mother, the former queen, a wealthy noblewoman, and the Lady of Casterly Rock. And if she gives you an order, you better fucking follow it.

And as for the smirking whore, she's basically using her bewbs to get Tommen fully devoted to her so she can use him for political power.

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Tommen lets Cersei run things because he doesn't want to. He just wants to fuck Margaery, play with Ser Pounce, and eat. He's a perfectly decent kid, but he's just that. A kid. A lazy, horny kid.

Cersei is in control in an unofficial official position. I see it as she's still the boss and no one will tell her otherwise. No matter the titles or positions, she is still the King's mother, the former queen, a wealthy noblewoman, and the Lady of Casterly Rock. And if she gives you an order, you better fucking follow it.

And as for the smirking whore, she's basically using her bewbs to get Tommen fully devoted to her so she can use him for political power.

yep thats pretty much it and its shallow as fuck honestly

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It is still interesting to examine what they changed, or omitted and what they didn't change, and what they added. I'm confused as to why this aggravates some people.

I think the changes they have made are actually pretty simple (or have a simple goal) - the show is written for a mass audience, the books are written for hardcore fantasy fans.

GRRMs books are not easy to pick up and read without having or developing an extensive knowledge of the world and it's characters - that's the thing hardcore fantasy thrives on, complicated worlds all trying to outdo Middle Earth because of some weird competition thing with Tolkien.

The show has to cut away the majority of the hardcore fantasy stuff (world building, slow character building and so on) and try and make it presentable to an audience who is willing to invest far less attention than the average hardcore fantasy reader. A picture tells a thousand words, the show world of Westeros is as we, the audience, sees it not as the characters experience it.

You can be a fantasy snob and argue the show isn't as good - but the show has touched a broader audience, so the snobbery is kind of redundant if we consider that the masses are always more correct.

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I think the changes they have made are actually pretty simple (or have a simple goal) - the show is written for a mass audience, the books are written for hardcore fantasy fans.

GRRMs books are not easy to pick up and read without having or developing an extensive knowledge of the world and it's characters - that's the thing hardcore fantasy thrives on, complicated worlds all trying to outdo Middle Earth because of some weird competition thing with Tolkien.

The show has to cut away the majority of the hardcore fantasy stuff (world building, slow character building and so on) and try and make it presentable to an audience who is willing to invest far less attention than the average hardcore fantasy reader. A picture tells a thousand words, the show world of Westeros is as we, the audience, sees it not as the characters experience it.

You can be a fantasy snob and argue the show isn't as good - but the show has touched a broader audience, so the snobbery is kind of redundant if we consider that the masses are always more correct.

I am part of the mass ausdience. I am neither a fantasy snob (not reading/ watching fantasy) nor have I read the books.

But I'm not sure I understand how what you say in your post relates to the way the show depicts (or not) women in power. Do you mean WIP would be harcore fantasy stuff? Or would need more attention of the viewer?

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I am part of the mass ausdience. I am neither a fantasy snob (not reading/ watching fantasy) nor have I read the books.

But I'm not sure I understand how what you say in your post relates to the way the show depicts (or not) women in power. Do you mean WIP would be harcore fantasy stuff? Or would need more attention of the viewer?

I mean women in power in the show have to be easy to relate to contemporary parallels for a mass audience - the complicated rules of succession and historical examples of powerful women from the books cannot matter to the show, it doesn't have the time to explain them or the audience that is interested. The power presented by the women in show has to be more 'in your face' to work on that medium.

As a post mentioned earlier, given the kind of world shown in GoTs/ASoIaF, which is very violent, aggressive and paternal (without the safety nets of modern society), women would most likely have assumed power by careful planning and manipulation. Understanding people and applying aspects of their femininity over time to rise to a station from which they could exert more power. The show needs something more immediate to keep it's audience enthused - so the WIP are presented more with the traits of modern women, that can be easily related to and sided with (or hated on) in a dramatic sense.

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Tommen lets Cersei run things because he doesn't want to. He just wants to fuck Margaery, play with Ser Pounce, and eat. He's a perfectly decent kid, but he's just that. A kid. A lazy, horny kid.

Cersei is in control in an unofficial official position. I see it as she's still the boss and no one will tell her otherwise. No matter the titles or positions, she is still the King's mother, the former queen, a wealthy noblewoman, and the Lady of Casterly Rock. And if she gives you an order, you better fucking follow it.

And as for the smirking whore, she's basically using her bewbs to get Tommen fully devoted to her so she can use him for political power.

Tommen is a kid who has no idea how to be king.

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I just want to take this opportunity to rant about the fact that this show even takes away the little places women actually can exert power the books have left:

- Cersei is not Queen Regent, she does not openly and officially rules in her son's name but rules in an unofficial/informal kind of way that makes no sense to me or anyone who actually understands how the power structure works in the books.

- There seem to be no changed laws of succession in Dorne - or if there are than it doesn't matter in the show as Doran Martell apparently doesn't have a daughter.

- Stannis does not proclaim or call Shireen his heir.

Did I miss anything?

The Cersei problem is because D&D decided to age Marg up, and then age Tommen up. There were some good reasons for these changes, but they caused a domino effect of problems since the King's Landing story in AFFC is caused by the fact that Tommen is so little and so he requires a regent to rule in his place. However, if Tommen is aged up to seem to be Joffery's age, well then he doesn't need a regent. If he doesn't need a regent, then we have no Kings Landing story from AFFC. But, the show is still trying to follow (loosely) Cersei's AFFC arc, which of course makes no sense. I think the best we can do is imagine that Tommen is so passive, it allows Cersei to act as she does. This doesn't make sense either, because Marg should have already had Tommen whipped enough to have Marg on the small counsel and Cersei booted off. In short, I don't think D&D are trying to take away Cersei's power, they are just suffering the consequences of their own plot changes from previous seasons.

I may be wrong, but I sure thought Oberyn explained Dorne's law of succession last season. And I'm pretty sure Stannis has referred to Shireen as his heir.

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I mean women in power in the show have to be easy to relate to contemporary parallels for a mass audience - the complicated rules of succession and historical examples of powerful women from the books cannot matter to the show, it doesn't have the time to explain them or the audience that is interested. The power presented by the women in show has to be more 'in your face' to work on that medium.

As a post mentioned earlier, given the kind of world shown in GoTs/ASoIaF, which is very violent, aggressive and paternal (without the safety nets of modern society), women would most likely have assumed power by careful planning and manipulation. Understanding people and applying aspects of their femininity over time to rise to a station from which they could exert more power. The show needs something more immediate to keep it's audience enthused - so the WIP are presented more with the traits of modern women, that can be easily related to and sided with (or hated on) in a dramatic sense.

:agree: 100%

And..@LordVarys

You can look at todays world and say "Why arent women in power?" and may get support.

Image you travel back in time to a violent war ages. There you can see how WIP makes no sense then.

It only makes sense in todays world were we no longer depend on pure physial strength.

Like mentioned, show did this for simplicity.

Show is show and books is books was not made by some idiotic crack. GRRM himself said it. Its not a stupid saying to mislead people.

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Well, guys, you should either watch the show more closely or come up with better arguments. Cersei is Joffrey's Queen Regent in the show, remember? They just don't use this plot point the way they should. In season 4 they suddenly decide to have Oberyn proclaim that Joff marrying Margaery will end Cersei's tenure as 'Queen Regent' which makes no sense in itself as a regent doesn't step down simply because the king takes a wife.



You come of age in the show at the age of eighteen. Joffrey never came of age in the series as far as I know as he was younger than Robb and Jon who were seventeen in season 1 (there are clues to his age as he cannot have been born prior to Cersei's marriage and has also been born at least a year after the wedding as this black-haired child of Robert and Cersei that died must have come first).


If Joffrey had been of age in the show - which he was not - then the show would also have sucked at depicting this as Joffrey only whored and whined throughout his reign instead of actually participating in his own government.



Tommen, being younger than Joffrey and Myrcella, is younger still, and certainly not supposed to be a man grown in seasons 4 and 5 despite the fact that he has sex now. He would also be in need of a regent just as he is in the books.



Conclusion:



The show hasn't simplified or changed things to make them it easier it has fucked them. First by having Cersei as Queen Regent but making her sort of subservient to Joffrey - which she would not have to be (real Cersei loved and spoiled her son, and let him have his way for those reason, not because she was afraid of him) - and then by ending her tenure as regent for no apparent reason to complicate/fuck up the AFfC storyline. Not having Cersei in power there simply makes no sense. This evil scheming Cersei is actually a disgrace to the whole plot line.



As to the general role of women in real world middle ages:



Come on, read a history book. Even men weren't in charge of kingdoms in the middle ages because of 'physical strength'. That's ridiculous. If that's the case then somebody should better soon rape and put Dany back into place. After all, she is not physically strong, and she doesn't have a dragon yet. And even if she was a dragonrider she can't sit on her dragon the whole day. Come on, guys, if you want to defend the show use better arguments (it is not that I want this thing to be bad I just think it is).


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re: Tommen's age. The closest thing to show cannon we have is an interview with the actor who plays Tommen. He said the producers told him he was 12 and should act accordingly. That's what I'm going with.


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These books arent about women in power.

Jon, Tyrion or Aegon will be king at the end. With a queen at their side.

Medieval fantasy wont suddenly discover feminism.

Though I agree neither the books, nor the show, is specifically about WIP, I don't think there will be a king at the end. I don't think there will be a queen either - but that's a whole other discussion.

What I think the books and, as an adaptation, the show, are trying to do is present the women as realistically as possible given their respective mediums.

Lord Varys, was Cersie still Joffreys Queen Regent after he came of age and married, in show? Was she still Queen Regent after he died? I get the feeling Tywin took up the whole I'm in charge until Tommen is ready mantle, regardless of what anyone's titles were.

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unmester,



if I'm not mistaken then Joff never came of age in the show, either. It is not mentioned that he had another nameday after season 2 and he did not come of age then.



Tywin certainly made the decisions after he returned to the city - just as he did in the books - but he wasn't Lord Regent, he was nominally only Hand. After Joff's death Cersei remained Queen Regent under Tommen I.



Being regent is also not a title, it is an office. It is very difficult to oust somebody from an office. Tywin could only dominate Cersei because she was his daughter.


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