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Women in power [book spoilers]


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unmester,

if I'm not mistaken then Joff never came of age in the show, either. It is not mentioned that he had another nameday after season 2 and he did not come of age then.

Tywin certainly made the decisions after he returned to the city - just as he did in the books - but he wasn't Lord Regent, he was nominally only Hand. After Joff's death Cersei remained Queen Regent under Tommen I.

Being regent is also not a title, it is an office. It is very difficult to oust somebody from an office. Tywin could only dominate Cersei because she was his daughter.

So, now that Tommen is of age (in the show) and married to Margery, would the position of Queen Regent still exist? You cant have a Queen Regent and a Queen consort at the same time, can you?

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So, now that Tommen is of age (in the show) and married to Margery, would the position of Queen Regent still exist? You cant have a Queen Regent and a Queen consort at the same time, can you?

How can Tommen be of age? He's even younger than Myrcella. Did they truly age them up by some 7+ years?

Of course they can exist side by side. In the books, Cersei is Queen Regent, while Margaery is Queen Consort. The consort holds no official power though. She's in the same position as Cersei was during Robert's reign, basically.

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How can Tommen be of age? He's even younger than Myrcella. Did they truly age them up by some 7+ years?

Of course they can exist side by side. In the books, Cersei is Queen Regent, while Margaery is Queen Consort. The consort holds no official power though. She's in the same position as Cersei was during Robert's reign, basically.

Well, he's screwing like he is of age.

Don't women come of age in ASoIaF when they are 13 or bleed or something, why should it be any different for the men?

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Well, he's screwing like he is of age.

Don't women come of age in ASoIaF when they are 13 or bleed or something, why should it be any different for the men?

Yes, and it makes little sense.

It's 16 years for both sexes. They can be married off younger, but officially the 16th birthday is the day you're considered fully adult.

A boy is Westeros is considered to be a "man grown" at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us.

However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant... and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding. source

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Yes, and it makes little sense.

It's 16 years for both sexes. They can be married off younger, but officially the 16th birthday is the day you're considered fully adult.

A boy is Westeros is considered to be a "man grown" at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us.

However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant... and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding. source

Didn't book Robb get married at 14 or something?

I don't know how old Tommen is supposed to be in show - he looks 14-15 to me, so I guessed he was around that. He took the gold cloaks out for a political encounter with the high sparrow all by himself, wouldn't he have to be of age to make that decision?

In books and show I think Tommen is supposed to be 5 years younger than Joffrey.

In show, Joffrey had his 16th name day at the start of Season 2, so Tommen would be 11 then. I think Joffrey was supposed to be 18, possibly 19, when he died, in show - so Tommen would have been 13-14 when Tywin started trying to train him and Margery started coming onto him. So I guess show Tommen is about 15 now - too young to get the full title of protector or whatever but still king and definitely old enough to enjoy his bonking.

I'm not sure where that leaves Cersie, with Tommen being married but not protector. I guess she is still Queen Regent, until Tommen is 16 but Margery (and cersie herself) are already working to undermine whatever power comes with being Queen Regent. Perhaps Kevan knew she was technically Queen Regent but refused to recognise it because of how she emotionally abused Lancel?

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Didn't book Robb get married at 14 or something?

I don't know how old Tommen is supposed to be in show - he looks 14-15 to me, so I guessed he was around that. He took the gold cloaks out for a political encounter with the high sparrow all by himself, wouldn't he have to be of age to make that decision?

Robb and Jon were 15 at the end of AGoT IIRC.

Well for what it's worth, apparently his actor thinks he should be about 12.

"Tommen's so young, I try to do a higher-pitched voice," the actor said when we caught up with him at the show's international press day in Belfast. "It's kind of hard to get in the mind of a 12-year-old, because I can't even remember being 12. And Tommen is so young, he's like a baby." (x)

Which is all kinds of weird since IIRC they aged up Daenerys in S1 (not only the actress, but also the character she was playing) because depicting a thirteen-year-old girl having sex (with a much older man, no less) could cause problems. It appears it doesn't go the other way around, though. :dunno:

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Robb and Jon were 15 at the end of AGoT IIRC.

Well for what it's worth, apparently his actor thinks he should be about 12.

"Tommen's so young, I try to do a higher-pitched voice," the actor said when we caught up with him at the show's international press day in Belfast. "It's kind of hard to get in the mind of a 12-year-old, because I can't even remember being 12. And Tommen is so young, he's like a baby." (x)

Which is all kinds of weird since IIRC they aged up Daenerys in S1 (not only the actress, but also the character she was playing) because depicting a thirteen-year-old girl having sex (with a much older man, no less) could cause problems. It appears it doesn't go the other way around, though. :dunno:

Perhaps he doesn't know how old he is :D I dunno - show Tommen is still 5 years younger than show Joffrey, isn't he? I think Tommens age depends on how old you think Joffrey was at time of death.

The age confused me in the books anyways - I find it totally unnecessary and was probably the thing i liked least about the books. It felt really dirty old man pervy on GRRMS behalf making Dany 13 to me. Yea, I get 13 year olds can often technically make babies - but they are still kids and writing about one putting some barbarians finger in her twat always struck me as very wrong. Make the girl 16 at least, or leave the age out so the reader can make it something they are comfortable with.

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The changed the adult age from 16 to 18. Joffrey is younger than Robb and Jon who are seventeen in the pilot.



In the show continuity Joffrey has to be significantly younger than Robb and Jon as they are born/conceived during the Rebellion whereas Joffrey is only conceived after Cersei's son by Robert died in the cradle.



Since the producers apparently told Tommen's actor that his character is about 12 in season 4/5 he's obviously not a man grown. Which means he does not rule himself and is in need of a regent in the show as Joffrey also had a regent - Cersei - in the show. Robb does not treat with King Joffrey in season 2 he deals with his mother Cersei Lannister, the Queen Regent.



The show is fucking itself again by contradicting itself. I don't think anyone can take this thing seriously after the show spent three seasons hammering home the fact that the Lannisters are rich and then we got that 'the Lannisters are broke' thing in season 4 - which was in itself a repetition of the 'Xaro is faking to be rich' in season 2 - which was already ridiculous. If it is that easy to fake being rich in TV Westeros I'd gladly live there...


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These books arent about women in power.

Jon, Tyrion or Aegon will be king at the end. With a queen at their side.

Medieval fantasy wont suddenly discover feminism.

I agree with you. I bet it will jon on the throne. It would be cool to be dany or tyrion on the throne though.

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These books arent about women in power.

Jon, Tyrion or Aegon will be king at the end. With a queen at their side.

Medieval fantasy wont suddenly discover feminism.

And who is to say the King and Queen wont be crowned as equals like Richard III and his cousin Anne Neville. History in retrospect didn't view them that way, she died quite soon after but they weren't the first to be crowned as equals and not the last.

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If I had to bet I'd say the chances that Jon Snow is not going to survive the final battle are much higher than Daenerys. He wants to prove himself and his worth, Dany knows who she is and what she wants.



If both survive I could easily see them taking over as a co-ruling couple. The idea that Jon will ever have a power base of his own is very unlikely. Westeros is not Middle-earth where the true king returns after a millennium and the only real rival conveniently offs himself.


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In regard to Dorne I feel like Oberyn did bring up the succession laws there, or in any case I fully expect those to be tackled this season through Myrcella's storyline. I believe that Trystane might try to pull off a Queenmaker type plot to go against SandSnake/Ellaria's maneuvers. And if it really hasn't been said before, we'll find out on the show then that Dorne's laws of succession favor the eldest child regardless of gender. Until then, it won't have mattered in the show's eyes since Doran has no daughter in that medium, which is really unfortunate, but whatever.

Stannis/Shireen: Not loudly or often, but we did get that scene in episode 4 where he names her Princess Shireen. In any case it goes without saying since he has no other children, male or female, and the prospect of having any more with Selyse doesn't look likely.

On the other hand I freely admit the whole Cersei thing has been botched and I hardly understand how it's supposed to work. From what I can muddle through, Tommen is underage, Cersei is Queen Regent and sits on the Small Council (and apparently has agency to choose its members). The recent scene between her and Margaery where the latter is asking how she should refer to her now that her and Tommen are married threw me for a loop because even though Show!Margaery is clearly of age, Tommen still isn't, so he would continue to need a regent. I get that they were trying to get a jab from Margaery to Cersei in to build up their rivalry more, but it created questions the show doesn't need.

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Well, the Shireen thing could have been much better if Stannis had added 'and one day you'll sit on the Iron Throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms after I'm gone'. That would have been much more powerful, don't you think? All he has said is that he likes her and that she is his daughter - which means she is a princess, they can't go around that...



Not sure about the Queenmaker thing in Myrcella's case. That would actually mean women can have power and the show tries to avoid even the appearance of that. More importantly, Trystane has yet to be introduced properly. What we saw of him and Myrcella is that they are heavily into each other and I doubt Trystane would want to endanger her. I'm rather inclined that they may intend to run away to leave a life in anonymity - or with Trystane's mother at Norvos - instead of being dragged into the plots of Westerosi politics.



If it turns out that Trystane is Aegon then Trystane-Myrcella could also be a nod towards Rhaegar-Lyanna as Rhaegar's son would follow a similar 'plan' as Rhaegar did when he took Lyanna.



Ellaria and Sand Snakes clearly only want to kill Myrcella, and with Jaime and Bronn in the mix I don't think we actually need Trystane to come up with a plan of his own.


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True, a missed opportunity. Perhaps later, we may get something more on that line. Shireen's kings blood seems to be playing a role either this season or next, as a potential sacrifice, so a Stannis reaction to that whole thing could have him stating more clearly, she is my daughter, my heir, etc.



They could run away. It's just speculation on my part that Trystane, in love with Myrcella, might bring up, "Why shouldn't you be Queen, you're older than your brother? I think you would make a great queen" (in the spirit of the Loras/Renly shaving scene eons ago, but in a more innocent, lovestruck way). If this happened it would just add complexity to the mess that is Dorne this season, for better or for worse, that might give it more interest in the eyes of the showrunners.


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Tommen cannot be 16. He is stated by Renly or Loras in their scene together in the middle of season #1 that he is 8. I recall that the actor said something about him being 12 last season and even that is a stretch according to the timeline. Furthermore he is the younger sibling of Myrcella in the show (as Cersei refers to when Joffrey was all she had, before Myrcella was born) and the actress playing her in this season only turned even 15 during filming. This is one reason (as well as it being it different in the books and his scene with Margaery being very non-sexual last season) I was so surprised that they consummated the marriage.


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So that would make Tommen 13 this season? The show is being as seedy as the books was with Dany then :)

If Tommen started at 8, it would make sense that 5 years have passed when we look at the other characters. I mean Sansa doesn't look 15 anymore, even though she is supposed to be, Arya doesn't look 13 and Bran doesn't look what, 12? 13 in Season 6?

I guess this would also make Dany and Jon about 21 now - they could pass for that, at least.

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