[Book spoiler] "That wasn't Ned Stark's way" R+L=J clue

[Frimmel]

I think this theory is correct, but I have to wonder why Ned felt he couldn't confide in Cat. It's obvious that Cat hates Jon, so she doesn't know.

I realize that the less people who have such information, the better things are, but Robert and Petyr seem to know, so it seems a bit strange that Ned never decided to mitigate the obvious tension between his wife and Jon. :unsure:

I don't think Littlefinger knows so much "The Truth" as the likelihood that Rhaegar didn't have to coerce or buy his women. In the books at any rate the musicians are always "getting the girl" so we have the crown prince who is a musician. Even in Westeros that's going to drop some shifts.

[sj4iy]

I think this theory is correct, but I have to wonder why Ned felt he couldn't confide in Cat. It's obvious that Cat hates Jon, so she doesn't know.

I realize that the less people who have such information, the better things are, but Robert and Petyr seem to know, so it seems a bit strange that Ned never decided to mitigate the obvious tension between his wife and Jon. :unsure:

Too dangerous. The best way to keep a secret is to never share it with anyone.

[Amoracchius]

How people come up with absolute nonsense like this, is beyond me. You do realize that the show creators would have confirmed with Martin, whether or not R+L=J is true or not? Furthermore, if it was confirmed to be false, why the fuck, would they waste time putting several hints about it in the show? Would it serve the narrative? No it doesn't. You are therefore saying that D&D put in there, just because they really really like the theory, even though it is confirmed by Martin not to be true. That's like saying all the witnesses, all the evidence, all the DNA, all the cell phone and security footage...show that the damn butler did it, only to say in the end that it was cook!

:agree:

I love that, before S5E4, I heard a lot of R+L=J critics claim the lack of hints on the show was evidence against it. Now that one episode made multiple hints, I suddenly start hearing, "The show means nothing! Hints on the show don't prove anything!"

[DarkerStar]

So no one thinks he is just saying Ned didn't like to bang tavern wenches huh?

[sj4iy]

So no one thinks he is just saying Ned didn't like to bang tavern wenches huh?

That was my first impression, actually.

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

I believe the "that wasn't Ned Stark's way" refers to him being an honorable man. He wouldn't have bed a woman knowing his wife was at home without him. Look at the facts: he married the woman his brother was promised to. When they first married he wasn't in love with Cat and knew she wasn't in love with him, yet.

Lyanna's fate with Rhaegar would have blasted open Westeros at a time when it was already weakened. What defense would a baby have had against Targaryen enemies? Only by keeping his promise to his sister could he ever assure Jon would grow to adulthood, and I think having that little portion of the beloved Lyanna was more important to him than the bitterness he knew Cat felt toward Jon.

[Attitude]

They DID guess it. They've admitted as much. More than once, in interviews. They've said "He asked us who Jon Snow's mother was and we got it right".

There's no other solution that makes sense within the book universe. So, given that, if they guessed 'right', they guessed Lyanna. And if they guessed Lyanna as the mother, they guessed Rhaegar as the father. And if that's what the book says about Jon's parentage, then that's what is going to be in the show universe.

I'll never understand why people want to overcomplicate this issue.

You misunderstand me (partly) here.

Yes, they guessed it right, but that doesn’t make is 100% sure that R+L=J. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t see a different solution and I’ve read a lot about both sides (those in favor of and against R+L=J). However, since I am a person that is always rather skeptical, I don’t say it’s true until I’ve heard it (even though I don’t see a different option).

Saying that no other solution makes sense, doesn’t mean it is true. That’s simply not how it works. Newton didn’t ‘prove’ his laws by saying: No other solution makes sense. He showed others enough evidence that show us that his laws are true. And I’m sorry, but at this point there isn’t enough evidence to make it 100% sure that R+L=J is true. (But then again, even a statement from Ned or Howland can be put into doubt, only Lyanna knew for sure. But let’s not go down that road).

I’m not overcomplicating anything. As I said, I am and always will be skeptical.

My wife figured it out in the first year, Robert's hatred, Neds reaction, and words to Jon, "you may not have my name, but you have my blood " Lyanna's his mother I'll bet Rheager is the father.

Figured what out? That Jon isn't Neds son, or that R+L=J. Because guessing Ned isn't Jons father isn't that weird, but as a show watched narrating down R+L=J is hard. Not as much hints, and a lot less obvious. The entire R+L love story is pretty much not mentioned in the series up to this season.

[Frimmel]

So no one thinks he is just saying Ned didn't like to bang tavern wenches huh?

I had that impression. That scene on the road in Season 1 with Robert and Ned and Ned not "kissing and telling" and reminding Robert that Robert had bed the tavern girl.

As a lord of Winterfell and one who seems to care about his smallfolk, Ned would have found it dishonorable to take advantage of lowborn girls that way.

Jon Snow's reticence with Ygritte always struck me as a bit of "you don't have sex outside of marriage" which would come from Ned in addition to Jon's not wanting to make bastards.

We see a similar behavior with Robb (especially book Robb.)

The not liking to bang tavern wenches means there is a lot of story we don't have about Jon's mother. Cat Stark would know Ned wasn't like that. It always seemed to me odd that she'd get so bent out of shape about the welp of some tavern wench while he was at war.

But viewed as getting bent out of shape about a girl Ned loved before her? A highborn girl he was promised to before his brother died? Ned not liking to bang tavern wenches hints that even if Ned is Jon Snow's father the mother isn't a lowborn girl. The bastards of lowborn girls become the apprentices of blacksmiths not taken to be raised in a castle alongside the legitimate children.

[Genius]

I think this theory is correct, but I have to wonder why Ned felt he couldn't confide in Cat. It's obvious that Cat hates Jon, so she doesn't know.

I realize that the less people who have such information, the better things are, but Robert and Petyr seem to know, so it seems a bit strange that Ned never decided to mitigate the obvious tension between his wife and Jon. :unsure:

The Stark parents are the villains. Ned is a witless fool who puts his entire family in terrible peril and makes the wrong decision at every turn. Cat is a total bitch to almost everyone except the Blackfish, Ser Roderick, and Bran. She's literally a bitch to EVERYONE else, including most of her children and her husband. So it makes total sense for Ned to go completely out of his way to keep a secret from everyone that might have helped save all kinds of mental, emotional, and physical pain. Gods be damned, you Starks.

[sj4iy]

You misunderstand me (partly) here.

Yes, they guessed it right, but that doesn’t make is 100% sure that R+L=J. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t see a different solution and I’ve read a lot about both sides (those in favor of and against R+L=J). However, since I am a person that is always rather skeptical, I don’t say it’s true until I’ve heard it (even though I don’t see a different option).

Saying that no other solution makes sense, doesn’t mean it is true. That’s simply not how it works. Newton didn’t ‘prove’ his laws by saying: No other solution makes sense. He showed others enough evidence that show us that his laws are true. And I’m sorry, but at this point there isn’t enough evidence to make it 100% sure that R+L=J is true. (But then again, even a statement from Ned or Howland can be put into doubt, only Lyanna knew for sure. But let’s not go down that road).

I’m not overcomplicating anything. As I said, I am and always will be skeptical.

No, I would say it's 100% accurate that they guessed Lyanna. Why? Well, unless they had some sort of information that we, the readers, did not have as of AFFC, then the ONLY reasonable guess to make at that point in time was Lyanna. But that's NOT the same as saying 'it's 100% true that Lyanna is his mother'. However, in my mind, the only room for doubt is that Martin is the author of a made up universe and could theoretically do whatever he wants, whether it makes sense or not.

Also, I'm an extremely skeptical and cynical person. I don't 'believe' things just because it sounds good. But this isn't science- it's literature. The scientific process isn't applicable, so what Newton did or didn't do to test his hypothesis doesn't matter.

I'm skeptical of a great many things...but not about who Jon's parents are. It's not worth my skepticism, imo.

[Lord Damian]

My wife figured it out in the first year, Robert's hatred, Neds reaction, and words to Jon, "you may not have my name, but you have my blood " Lyanna's his mother I'll bet Rheager is the father.

That and Robert to Ned after Ned tells him "Kings are a rare sight in the North", Robert actually ignores that and answers to his own question before that in regards to where are all the people? The answer Robert gave himself "They are hiding under the Snow". Yeah, Jon's parentage was known pretty early on.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

The stare combined with the story of how Rhaegar gave money to orphans and the poor pretty much sets up the fact that he didn't kidnap or rape Lyanna.

absolutely!

[Grail King]

My wife figured it out in the first year, Robert's hatred, Neds reaction, and words to Jon, "you may not have my name, but you have my blood " Lyanna's his mother I'll bet Rheager is the father.

@attitude Figured what out? That Jon isn't Neds son, or that R+L=J. Because guessing Ned isn't Jons father isn't that weird, but as a show watched narrating down R+L=J is hard. Not as much hints, and a lot less obvious. The entire R+L love story is pretty much not mentioned in the series up to this season.

=========================================================================================================

Jon is Lyanna's son, and she is guessing that Rheager is the secret daddy.

She didn't need to know the love story, she's lived long enough and watched enough TV and movies to know how the movie and TV industries roll ( her words by the way ) my wife isn't a book reader, so from what I know of my wife I think a lot of show watchers only if they paid some attention in the first year can come up with the same conclusion.

[Grail King]

deleted double post.

[jugdesh258]

I do think it is a lot of baloney to say you guessed Jon's parentage soley from watching the show. Not with a lot of outside prodding from book readers to make issue of it and force people to make a guess at it anyway.

There is no mention of Ned's promise or Tower of Joy in the show. It would be difficult to deduce this in just a single reading of the book. The greatness of the novels are that you can learn new things with each re-read and put clues together and collaborate with community to critically analyze the work.

[Grail King]

I do think it is a lot of baloney to say you guessed Jon's parentage soley from watching the show. Not with a lot of outside prodding from book readers to make issue of it and force people to make a guess at it anyway.

There is no mention of Ned's promise or Tower of Joy in the show. It would be difficult to deduce this in just a single reading of the book. The greatness of the novels are that you can learn new things with each re-read and put clues together and collaborate with community to critically analyze the work.

Why would there need to be, my wife picked up on it just from words, body language and tone from the actors so I believe others can too.

Actors job is to convey a message to the audience using all of the above.

[jugdesh258]

Why would there need to be, my wife picked up on it just from words, body language and tone from the actors so I believe others can too.

Actors job is to convey a message to the audience using all of the above.

Nobody was being singled out......but that body language thing is far out there. There are too many posts that suggest that someone's mere expression means something or is a clue. We would be giving the actors and D&D much too much credit when in reality the show writers have had the greatest difficulty in handling prophetic clues from one show to another let alone past one season to another. Most these actors are saying in interviews that they did not read the books.

There are still people that think the LF recognized Arya due to look on LF face but this debunked. People were reading the body language on Tormunds face and saying he was Mance in disguise. People are wondering what color Meryn Trants eyes are when he lose his boots in upcoming show. This all made up for TV drama and is quickly forgotton by writters when moving on to next thing

[Grail King]

Nobody was being singled out......but that body language thing is far out there. There are too many posts that suggest that someone's mere expression means something or is a clue. We would be giving the actors and D&D much too much credit when in reality the show writers have had the greatest difficulty in handling prophetic clues from one show to another let alone past one season to another. Most these actors are saying in interviews that they did not read the books.

There are still people that think the LF recognized Arya due to look on LF face but this debunked. People were reading the body language on Tormunds face and saying he was Mance in disguise. People are wondering what color Meryn Trants eyes are when he lose his boots in upcoming show. This all made up for TV drama and is quickly forgotton by writters when moving on to next thing

I'm not saying anyone is, but I disagree here.

When the scene in the inn came, I told my wife and stated here that Sophie Turner's look to Brienne was get the hell out of here and her saying you should leave was a warning; two days later there is an article where Gwendolyn Christie told a entertainment reporter that there was a notation on her script stating that Sansa is telling Brienne to get out of Dodge.

I got this just from body and tone and so did a few others, if anything I say that Sophie is doing a good job of conveying information with the few lines she gets.

It was nice that me and others got suspicions validated from the article, and from my view you can't ignore facial or body language from the actors.

[sj4iy]

I'm not saying anyone is, but I disagree here.

When the scene in the inn came, I told my wife and stated here that Sophie Turner's look to Brienne was get the hell out of here and her saying you should leave was a warning; two days later there is an article where Gwendolyn Christie told a entertainment reporter that there was a notation on her script stating that Sansa is telling Brienne to get out of Dodge.

I got this just from body and tone and so did a few others, if anything I say that Sophie is doing a good job of conveying information with the few lines she gets.

It was nice that me and others got suspicions validated from the article, and from my view you can't ignore facial or body language from the actors.

Well, I've heard numerous people say that the look Sean Bean gives when Jon asks about his mother tipped them off. I've even seen youtube videos mention it. So, I agree...tv is a medium in which the audience can use the characters' body language to give them clues. I mean, that's sort of the entire point.

[White Harbors Wrath]

But viewed as getting bent out of shape about a girl Ned loved before her? A highborn girl he was promised to before his brother died? Ned not liking to bang tavern wenches hints that even if Ned is Jon Snow's father the mother isn't a lowborn girl. The bastards of lowborn girls become the apprentices of blacksmiths not taken to be raised in a castle alongside the legitimate children.

Unless you're Ned Stark.