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[Book spoiler] "That wasn't Ned Stark's way" R+L=J clue


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I'm not saying anyone is, but I disagree here.

When the scene in the inn came, I told my wife and stated here that Sophie Turner's look to Brienne was get the hell out of here and her saying you should leave was a warning; two days later there is an article where Gwendolyn Christie told a entertainment reporter that there was a notation on her script stating that Sansa is telling Brienne to get out of Dodge.

I got this just from body and tone and so did a few others, if anything I say that Sophie is doing a good job of conveying information with the few lines she gets.

It was nice that me and others got suspicions validated from the article, and from my view you can't ignore facial or body language from the actors.

I tend to agree with you, the nature of TV as a medium means it's important to look for visual cues and not just what's stated explicitly, but I think jugdesh is expressing a common feeling: Interpreting what's being said in between the lines is inherently subjective.

You or your wife may have gleaned one thing from an actor's facial expression or demeanor, but that doesn't mean that a different, or even opposite, interpretation isn't also possible. Since joining the forums, I've read posts where people make rather large leaps in logic based on little more than what they thought an actor or director was trying to convey. Sometimes they were right and sometimes (being honest, usually) they wrong, so I think most people on the forums rightly look at those types of statements with skepticism.

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I tend to agree with you, the nature of TV as a medium means it's important to look for visual cues and not just what's stated explicitly, but I think jugdesh is expressing a common feeling: Interpreting what's being said in between the lines is inherently subjective.

You or your wife may have gleaned one thing from an actor's facial expression or demeanor, but that doesn't mean that a different, or even opposite, interpretation isn't also possible. Since joining the forums, I've read posts where people make rather large leaps in logic based on little more than what they thought an actor or director was trying to convey. Sometimes they were right and sometimes (being honest, usually) they wrong, so I think most people on the forums rightly look at those types of statements with skepticism.

subjective true, but saying that using those tools of observation is far out there isn't.

In this medium we need to take the statement, tone, facial and body language into account; in the books we get the words and need to rely on past phrases, punctuation, grammar and some history of the times to get opinions and answers.

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No, I would say it's 100% accurate that they guessed Lyanna. Why? Well, unless they had some sort of information that we, the readers, did not have as of AFFC, then the ONLY reasonable guess to make at that point in time was Lyanna. But that's NOT the same as saying 'it's 100% true that Lyanna is his mother'. However, in my mind, the only room for doubt is that Martin is the author of a made up universe and could theoretically do whatever he wants, whether it makes sense or not.

Also, I'm an extremely skeptical and cynical person. I don't 'believe' things just because it sounds good. But this isn't science- it's literature. The scientific process isn't applicable, so what Newton did or didn't do to test his hypothesis doesn't matter.

I'm skeptical of a great many things...but not about who Jon's parents are. It's not worth my skepticism, imo.

Well, yeah I guess you made a good point there. GRRM did some other weird stuff, so I can’t exclude the possibility of pulling this off. However, he won’t. I wouldn’t put any money on a bet saying R+J≠J. But as you said, there was no other logical choice besides lyanna. So yeah, they guessed that, but that doesn’t mean they guessed it right. It would be totally lame, but since GRRM is the writer and he decides, he could pull off a total jerk move and say that those hints were all bullshit. (I don’t know if you know that Preston dude from Youtube, he claims it might have been Daenarys, but IMO that doesn’t make sense). So in that way, we never know sure until it’s explicitly stated in the books.

My comparison with Newton wasn’t because I wanted to say that you can apply science here. But what I meant to say that the above stated is possible. There isn’t enough evidence yet to say R+L=J, because we will only have enough when GRRM gives it to us.

My wife figured it out in the first year, Robert's hatred, Neds reaction, and words to Jon, "you may not have my name, but you have my blood " Lyanna's his mother I'll bet Rheager is the father.

@attitude Figured what out? That Jon isn't Neds son, or that R+L=J. Because guessing Ned isn't Jons father isn't that weird, but as a show watched narrating down R+L=J is hard. Not as much hints, and a lot less obvious. The entire R+L love story is pretty much not mentioned in the series up to this season.

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Jon is Lyanna's son, and she is guessing that Rheager is the secret daddy.

She didn't need to know the love story, she's lived long enough and watched enough TV and movies to know how the movie and TV industries roll ( her words by the way ) my wife isn't a book reader, so from what I know of my wife I think a lot of show watchers only if they paid some attention in the first year can come up with the same conclusion.

Well, a nice accomplishment from your wife then! I can understand that at some points it’s rather obvious that something is wrong with his parentage. But that’s often the case in TV shows/movies. Every scene matters and tells us something about the story. So the fact that Jon’s parentage is playing up this often makes it obvious that something is wrong.

But then again, I think that 99% of the show watchers has no clue about this at all. Because, unlike most people on this forum, they aren’t skeptical at all. They just accept all the info they get and assume it’s right. I guess that’s a big difference.

To make a small comparison; I am currently watching the show Lost (season 5 now) and I just know what is happening quite often because I assume that Benjamin is a big liar pretty much everything he says is to manipulate people. On the other hand, my GF is often surprised by certain events, because she still falls for the same tricks they use with Benjamin in the show. I guess that’s the difference.

But then again, when I read the books, I didn't have a clue about R+L=J. I only thought there was something fishy about Jons parentage (it wasn't clear who the mother was as far as I knew) but I didn't even think about Ned not being his father. But looking back, I can see he never awknowledged that he is his father. In a way, that doesn't make him a liar. Well, I'm still learning!

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Attitude:

We know they guessed it right because they said they have in several interviews.

Yes, I'm aware of Preston Jacobs...I've debated his theories with him on this message board. He plays the god-of-the-gaps game with his theories, adding in made up stuff to support his theories while ignoring the facts that don't. Dany's birth is pretty much set in stone, so unless you want to ignore the book which says that she was born 9 months after the sack of KL, or the author who says that she is 8-9 months younger than Jon, or the books that say that Jon and Robb were about the same age, then his theories about Jon and Dany's birth aren't remotely plausible.

I would say most first time readers and a majority of show watchers don't pick up on it. But when you do, the whole story falls into place...which is why I don't think there is any viable alternative at this point.

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I think this theory is correct, but I have to wonder why Ned felt he couldn't confide in Cat. It's obvious that Cat hates Jon, so she doesn't know.

I realize that the less people who have such information, the better things are, but Robert and Petyr seem to know, so it seems a bit strange that Ned never decided to mitigate the obvious tension between his wife and Jon. :unsure:

Keep in mind that he made a promise to Lyanna, the promise was most likely to tell NO ONE.

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The best way to keep a secret is to tell no one.



Throughout my reads of the books I, like many people, have assumed the truth about Jon would come from Howland Reed. As that isn't going to happen in the show, I wonder how it will come out. Hopefully it won't be from someone who really shouldn't know (Littlefinger) or from one of Mel's visions. Will Jon work it out for himself somehow?


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If Howland is going to appear on the show, I feel like they're going to have to lay some serious groundwork for it. Sure, we've met Jojen and Meera, but (1) he's dead, (2) she's under a tree somewhere beyond the Wall off-screen this season, and (3) unlike the books, I don't think they mentioned their father or his connection to Ned once. Him showing up this season without any kind of foreshadowing would be awkward at best.


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Do not forget that the show differs from the books and that D & D may be so infatuated with the R + L = J theory themselves, that they decided to include it regardless of what the books will do. They have that amount of freedom.

When D&D approached GRRM about adapting the story for television. He asked if they knew who Jon's parents were. He said they answered correctly. In this instance GRRM is saying they know the correct answer, so they are going by what he said.

GRRM could obviously change it. He can change anything he wants to, but in this particular instance everyone will know that he was the one to make the change rather than D&D because he has already stated that they answered the question correctly.

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I'll never understand why people want to overcomplicate this issue.

:agree:

This theory has always been an open secret. When I originally read the books, I immediately had this theory. Every reader that I have ever personally talked to has assumed this theory to be correct. I think the show is just bringing this information out into the open, but that does not necessarily confirm the theory or end the story. It simply brings it out. Knowing this will not conclude the story. D&D have already stated they want to end the series in 7 seasons, which I personally think is a great idea. I will miss the show tremendously, but I would rather they conclude it rather then let it just get stale and the actors get too old for their characters.

One funny note is that when I saw the first episode I did question the theory. When I saw Kit Harrington as Jon Snow with all that black hair, I thought Good Lord, I have been completely wrong about the L & R Theory the whole time. :eek:

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The best way to keep a secret is to tell no one.

Throughout my reads of the books I, like many people, have assumed the truth about Jon would come from Howland Reed. As that isn't going to happen in the show, I wonder how it will come out. Hopefully it won't be from someone who really shouldn't know (Littlefinger) or from one of Mel's visions. Will Jon work it out for himself somehow?

Yeah, I'm tired of the runners giving Baleish Ned's lines, Hound'd lines, even Sansa's inner thoughts of her heritage.

I wish they kill him already.

I think Jon will learn it from a dream and connecting with Bran, or Sansa figures it out somehow.

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I believe the "that wasn't Ned Stark's way" refers to him being an honorable man. He wouldn't have bed a woman knowing his wife was at home without him. Look at the facts: he married the woman his brother was promised to. When they first married he wasn't in love with Cat and knew she wasn't in love with him, yet.

Lyanna's fate with Rhaegar would have blasted open Westeros at a time when it was already weakened. What defense would a baby have had against Targaryen enemies? Only by keeping his promise to his sister could he ever assure Jon would grow to adulthood, and I think having that little portion of the beloved Lyanna was more important to him than the bitterness he knew Cat felt toward Jon.

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Cat could have known the truth. She could hate Jon because his parents were the reason her intended fiancé was killed. She loved Brandon Stark and may have lamented getting to spend her life with a warrior-hero. The more obvious rationale for hating Jon, the child of a cheating husband, is more likely.

There is still the issue of the treatment of Jon Snow. There are high born bastards all over Westeros but Jon and Robert I's kids are the only ones poorly treated.

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Jon was not poorly treated by the starks. He had all the material comforts and schooling and trainning like his siblings. He just cannot sit on the table of honour when guests come as his status is different. They are not equals but it's a stretch to say he is poorly treated.


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Im not sure if anyone else mentioned this as far as another R+L = J drop but rewatching this episode when Sansa picks up the feather King Robert placed at Lyanna's tomb (in Season 1 Ep.1) was "mysteriously" on the ground as if even Lyanna's tomb didn't want to have anything to do with Robert. That combined with LF's smirk is a clear indicator of Lyanna's feelings towards Robert. So much to that one scene and very well played and acted out.


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