[BOOK/SHOW SPOILERS] A certain scene in Winterfell

[Lady Lovisa]

I think you're committing the same mistake than D&D here. The fact she needed to be rescued by the Hound is not what makes her a victim.

I've seen this a lot during the whole Black Widow debacle. Being a damsel in distress is not the same as need help. Damn, even I've many times asked for a male friend to go with me to any place I would call dangerous or to a situation I could need some extra help. There is nothing degrading on realise sometimes, one needs someone else to help you. And, in Sansa's case, there is no way to make Sansa a character that could have simply left KL on her own or survive outside of a castle. That would be, for instance, anachronistic (it worked for Arya because she's young enough to pass as a boy). And Martin has been quite clear on making his characters, specially the females, as realistic as he can.

Yet, D&D needed that one "almost-rape" scene for her to be portrayed as someone who needed help and needed to be saved. No need. We already knew that from the time we saw how Tyrion had to step forward to make Joffrey stop ordering to beat her up. Yet, the fact she refused to go with the Hound during Blackwater made her NOT a victim. Because she took a choice. The Hound needed little to only take her with him like dragging a doll, yet he did not. The fact she refused to kneel for Tyrion, and how she saw him with disgust despite all of her septa's teachings about how she should "enjoy" the sex with her strange husband made her not a victim. The fact she decided to walk to the altar instead of being dragged to the sept also made her not a victim. She has always been taking small decisions to take control of her life, despite she was a pawn. That's what LF doesn't get: you don't need to have power to have control of your life. That's what he calls her a pawn and believes her to have little power and feel he needs to be on top to have control. He's unable to see how the difference between Lysa and Cat was that Cat tried to make the best of her marriage while Lysa didn't, despite they both were in a similar situation of having small decisions on choosing a husband, just like he couldn't have the woman he actually wanted.

That's the whole point of Sansa's arc, imo. LF believes only political power gives you control. Sansa proves him wrong. Despite her name, she has no power, yet, she's able to make small decisions that give her strength, Stark or not. She doesn't need traumatic events on her life to suddenly turn up strong.

One of the best explanations I've seen to date :bowdown:

[Spidey]

Sansa agreed to the marriage with the full knowledge that this also entails a bedding.

She doesn't enjoy it, but she also accepts it as something she has to endure in order to eventually get what she wants.

Littlefinger married Lysa with the full knowlegde that he had to bed her afterwards. He most likely did not enjoy it but he accepted it as something he had to do in order to eventually get what he wants.

if Ramsay raped Sansa, then Lysa raped Littlefinger. Where was all this outrage back then??

[Sullen]

Sansa agreed to the marriage with the full knowledge that this also entails a bedding.

She doesn't enjoy it, but she also accepts it as something she has to endure in order to eventually get what she wants.

Littlefinger married Lysa with the full knowlegde that he had to bed her afterwards. He most likely did not enjoy it but he accepted it as something he had to do in order to eventually get what he wants.

if Ramsay raped Sansa, then Lysa raped Littlefinger. Where was all this outrage back then??

Marital rape is still rape, mate.

It might not legally be seen as rape in universe, but it's still very much rape in the context of modern western morals.

[Spidey]

Modern western morals cannot be applied here because the people in Westeros have no idea about modern western morals.

To them this is par for the course when it comes to arranged highborn marriages.

In these cases, it's not uncommon for newly weds to not actually enjoy the act.

Even having eye witnesses present is nothing out of the ordinary.

Do you think Dany is going to have fun bedding Hizdahr? Do you think he wants to bang her after all she's done to the masters? Is she going to rape him or is he gonna rape her?

Do you see the issue? You're trying to apply the term rape to a specific type of situation where the lines can become so blurred that one can't even tell who's raping whom.

[Everett Snow]

The way the whole scene was put together actually reminded me a lot of something:

That scene from True Detective Season 1 where Matthew McConaughey showed Woody Harrelson the casete tape of the ritual. We saw a close-up of the poor quality tape of the crying little girl being ushered into the midst of the group of men and then we cut and hold on Woody's face as he reacts to what he's seeing, letting his revultion speak instead of showing us what's on the tape.

In the show, we get close-up of Sansa as she slowly undresses and mentally prepares herself for what's about to happen, then a close-up of her dress being torn at the back, and then a close-up of her face on the bed. From there, it cuts and holds on Theon's reaction.

In both cases, they kept the graphic display of violence to a minumum. The biggest difference is that in GoT we also get audio on what's happening while the camera remains focused on Theon.

[Sullen]

Modern western morals cannot be applied here because the people in Westeros have no idea about modern western morals.

To them this is par for the course when it comes to arranged highborn marriages.

Even having eye witnesses present is nothing out of the ordinary.

Only using the in-universe, character-centric visions of morality means that we have to agree that the Ironborn never did anything wrong (since pretty much all their actions are justified by their moral code and culture), Joffrey was totally in the right having Ned executed since he genuinely thinks he's a traitor, and burning infidels is perfectly justified if it is for the Greater Good of R'hllor. An act being judged morally acceptable in-universe does not mean it's acceptable anywhere. By our modern, commonly used definition of rape, it was rape.

And even then, the act was seen as extremely distasteful in-universe, or else I doubt Tyrion would have have stayed his hand earlier.

[Attitude]

In the show, we get close-up of Sansa as she slowly undresses and mentally prepares herself for what's about to happen, then a close-up of her dress being torn at the back, and then a close-up of her face on the bed. From there, it cuts and holds on Theon's reaction.

In both cases, they kept the graphic display of violence to a minumum. The biggest difference is that in GoT we also get audio on what's happening while the camera remains focused on Theon.

Once again shows us that due to good acting from Sophie, Iwan and Alfie we name it rape without actually seeing anything happen.

[Zadeth]

Marital rape is still rape, mate.

It might not legally be seen as rape in universe, but it's still very much rape in the context of modern western morals.

You have to look at it within the context of Westeroi morals, not our own.

[Philpenn]

Yawn.

[Sullen]

You have to look at it within the context of Westeroi morals, not our own.

Then, as I said, the Ironborn are completely innocent when it comes to their treatment of the greenlands.

And, as Tyrion might testify, even then it's morally reprehensible.

Listen, I didn't think the scene was especially bad, I found it less offensive to either Dany or Cersei's rape scenes to be honest, but to denying it's rape simply because it's accepted within Westerosi society is wrong if you ask me.

[Another Locust]

A friend of mine on another forum said this.

>Ramsay forcing himself on Sansa

>When suddenly

>The ground starts shaking

>The very stone walls of Winterfall sound as if they are creaking

>Theon, Ramsay and Sansa all stop and fall silent, terrified of what now seems to be an earthquake

>Theon covers his ears from the now deafening rattling of pots and furniture falling and shattering

>Ramsay and Sansa back up against the wall in fear

>Everything falls silent for a second, no earth shaking or shattering

>Theon reaches a hand towards the door to look outside

>The door is smashed open

>Theon is instantly crushed into the wall, dead before his nervous system even has the chance to register the impact

>The force of the door hitting him is so great his component atoms are warped out of the universe

>Ramsay and Sansa, screaming, watch as a great figure stomps through the door, breaking the doorframe as it does

>It's Sandor FUCKING Clegane

>The Hound proceeds to pick Ramsay up with one hand and throw him out the window

>The window and the surrounding wall are instantaneously vaporised by the velocity of Ramsay's corpse being thrown through

>Ramsay's still warm body lands in Essos approximately 4.7 seconds later

>A terrified Sansa crouches in the corner, shuddering with fear

>The Hound retrieves a misplaced chicken wing from under the bed

>Leans over Sansa

>Whispers in her ear

>"Cleganebowl get hype"

>Leaves without uttering another word

Poetry.

[grumpus]

Marital rape is still rape, mate.

It might not legally be seen as rape in universe, but it's still very much rape in the context of modern western morals.

And this is an utterly pointless comparison to make. The situation could not take place under "modern western morals." This story is set within medieval European morals, and shows WHY we now have "modern western morals." This entire world is driven by sheer force, not reason or "modern morals." This has been Dany's lesson. She tried to play the adolescent girl everyone-stop-being-mean! princess fantasy role in this world, and it was absurd. Everyone but her could see it was absurd. Now she is accepting that she is of Fire and Blood and she's going to become an absolute terror.

Everything that everyone does exists in this paradigm of tyranny under kings and priests. By your reckoning, pretty much every married female in this world is raped her entire life, because they are married off for every reason EXCEPT their choice. They are going to be bedded by someone not of their choosing whether they like it or not.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

fuck off, I'm totally pissed off, that scene was as useless as it was disgusting

[euron crows eye greyjoy]

I don't know why anyone would complain about how gross this scene was. The book story is WAY uglier. I was so afraid while watching that Theon might have to do his book thing and actually relieved they kept it human.

[voodooqueen126]

If it had focused on Sansa's face, we'd have just as many people in here complaining that it was gratuitous. As is, we got a scene that wasn't visually gratuitous and also gave us an extremely powerful and telling reaction from Theon.

Focusing on her face was awfully distressing, but it would've been gratuitous if it had focused on her body (ie the sexual part of her). I would argue that the best way to shoot a rape scene is to focus on the victims face (ie her feelings).

The absolute worst is focusing on the brother/husband/father/foster brother's face because a woman's rape is all about the effect it has on the men who own her.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

I'll admit it was shocking. Upon reflection though, it really wasn't much worse than Dannys wedding night.