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R+L=J v 141

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Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Radio Westeros podcast:
A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?
Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.
Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?
Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?
He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.
There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?
We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?
In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?
Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.
George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.
On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.
Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?
The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.
"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?
No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?
Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?
Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?
The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.
In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?
There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:
Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"


"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)

"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)

"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)

"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)

"R+L=J v. 130" (thread one hundred thirty)

"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)

"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)


"R+L=J v.133" (thread one hundred thirty three)

"R+L=J v.134" (thread one hundred thirty four)

"R+L=J v.135" (thread one hundred thirty five)

"R+L=J v. 136" (thread one hundred thirty six)

"R+L=J v. 137" (thread one hundred thirty seven)

"R+L=J v. 138" (thread one hundred thirty eight)

R+L=J v.139

(thread one hundred thirty nine)

R+L=J v. 140

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From the last thread

That's an interesting take. My own thoughts are similar, in that I do believe it's a cyclical event...however, I believe that this is the story where the cycle is broken...hence my reasons for not believing it's a straight historical recreation.

I think the general themes--light vs dark or maybe better put, life vs death--have happened before because of course they have. That basic story is happening, did happen, and will happen. It's the players that are different because as archetype as they might be they are still individuals and not doomed to trod the well trod path simply because "this happened before"

Both of these comments relate to my "magical determinism" question. I'm inclined to see the various historical hero tales (Azor Ahai, TPTWP, The Last Hero, Bloodstone Emperor, Edric Shadowchaser etc) as being different people rather than local variants of a global story. I think that's more the way GRRM plays -- see Brienne's local heroes. Ser Clarence Crabbe is not Ser Galladon of Morne in disguise. Does the similarity in what's attributed to them indicate a determinism, magical or otherwise, then?

On the pro side, there's a lot in ASOIAF to hint at a cyclical return. On the most basic level that most fundamental of cycles, the seasons, plays such a fundamental part in the story.

On the con side, we should be aware that myths get re-used. A story originally attributed to one hero gets reapplied to another. When storytellers travel to a new land, they tell the same stories they learned at home, but change the names to satisfy a local audience. This is definitely something that GRRM has played with too, and my suspicion is that we should be considering prophecy in ASOIAF in this light. In Rhaegar we see someone who changed their behaviour to suit prophecy; thus he is subject to a kind of artificial determinism. The attempt by those who follow prophecy to shape the world around them to match what they expect to happen makes those prophecies self-fulfilling.

I'm very much in agreement with BQ87 that the players are not doomed to tread old paths, though they may be encouraged to. I don't think it would be in keeping with that common GRRM theme that it is decisions not the motivations that create his character's lot. Bad things happen to good people who make mistakes. It's all about free will, and that would be very contrary to a theme reliant on historical determinism.

How do we reconcile these ideas? Perhaps the presumed catastrophe of the past that messed up the seasons has left some kind of deterministic imprint -- I referred in my previous post to a "morphic resonance", a rather nutty theory for scientists but a compelling one to mythmakers. I'd suggest this would not determine the actions of the individuals affected, but would determine something of the milieu in which they act. Perhaps each of these cycles throws up a chance for someone -- or maybe anyone who's in the right place at the right time -- to shape the pattern of the next cycle.

I find myself inclining to the view that the hidden conflict in ASOIAF is between those who for diverse reasons are trying to steer a path based on prophecy to replay the past ("To go forwards, you must go back...") and those who try to seek their own path. Given how much of the prophecy we have seen so far comes from followers of fire, I wonder if there's another set of ice prophecies that are guiding the actions of the Others?

Jon is fire and ice, and has shown a marked tendency to seek middle paths between conflicting advice. For now at least, my money is on Jon's role in ASOIAF being the guy who finds a way between the paths the Others and the fire prophets (be they Targ or Shadowbinder) and, as sj4iy says, breaks the cycle. Whether such a middle path would make either side content is another question.

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Was it just me or was there a lot of foreshadowing this on episode 4 the other night?

That's an interesting question, but the mods have asked us to discuss the HBO series on a different part of the site. Here is a good place to start. :)

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Jon is fire and ice, and has shown a marked tendency to seek middle paths between conflicting advice. For now at least, my money is on Jon's role in ASOIAF being the guy who finds a way between the paths the Others and the fire prophets (be they Targ or Shadowbinder) and, as sj4iy says, breaks the cycle. Whether such a middle path would make either side content is another question.

Unique Fiery snowflake, middle path walker he may be....but Jon cannot fix what is in the hearts of men (and...Others? Whatever they got inside their cold chests). He might be able to heal the broken world and rule it to the best of his ability but he can't fundamentally alter people. The only difference is that by healing the broken world he's put a much larger stopgap on all this happening again.

Also SHINY!

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The promised prince and the reborn Azor Ahai seem to be the same guy. Melisandre and Aemon believe these two are identical and Benerro also uses the characteristics of the promised prince to identify Azor Ahai.



I don't see a cycle or a great conflict of ice and fire there. I only see ice demons trying the destroy the world as we know it with their magic and cold. The representatives of fire - dragonlords and dragons - never tried to do what the Others did in the past and try again in the present.



I think it is a huge stretch to assume that you can reason with the Others or reach some sort of agreement. The Last Hero may have hoped to reach/reached an understanding but the Others no longer seem to honor that - if it ever existed. The very nature of the Others seems to demand that it is cold where they live (they are sort like Mr. Freeze in that regard). I'm inclined to believe that the Others actually caused the freak seasons, and that a reversal of that spell (i.e. normal seasons) would mean their death as this might bring a much more milder climate to the Land of Always Winter, effectively killing them.



Jon Snow can only be 'a union between ice and fire' in a superfluous way. He is not the child of an Other and a dragon, after all. The Targaryens sort of actively embody fire magic as they may have actual dragon blood, but the Starks aren't icy in the same way. They are First Men with some Children-blood but they aren't masters of ice magic who can create ice wights or (presumably) turn human children into their own. Even if the First Other was a Stark it is very unlikely that the Starks - or any humas in the series - have Other-blood as the Others don't seem to procreate this way. The Night's King apparently did not found House Stark, after all. And the chances that any of his children married into House Stark are pretty slim, if you ask me.



In fact, what the Others are what they represent is clearly at odds with all sentient life we met in Martinworld. The dragonlords may also have done abominable things in the past but they never tried to eradicate all life on earth. The Others may have been different once - and it is very likely that whoever created/became the First Other is still around due to the whole 'cold preserves' trope. Perhaps he or she had once noble motivations but what the Others are now is very much travesty that has to be eradicated. They do not reason and they do not negotiate with their enemies (i.e. humans) they just kill and use their dead enemies as their thralls. That's not the basis for an understanding.



We also sort of learn that 'fire is life' or that 'life is warmth' etc., not only from Melisandre but from other people as well. The crannogmen oath suggests that ice and fire are important natural magical constants, not things that are necessarily at odds with each other. But if there is an 'original sin' sort of theme in the story then I imagine it is the sin of the Others to use their ice magic in the way they did to change the seasons, make other beings their own (and their dead their thralls), and try to exterminate all light and warmth on earth. Whatever fire mages did was also sort of extreme in cases (in Hyrkoon and Valyria) but apparently never as bad as what the Others did with the Long Night.



In that sense, I doubt that Jon Snow will be adding something new to this whole thing. In fact, the whole magics of the Others and the ancient dragonlords is much, much bigger than anything present-day people can do which is a big hint, in my opinion, that the 'dragon heads trinity' (or the promised prince/Azor Ahai if it is only one hero) won't to much in the field of superheroism. He may be crucial to unite humanity against the common enemy and thus ensure the survival of the species, but I don't see him single-handedly slaying the Big Bad (or throwing the source of the evil power into Mount Doom, conveniently destroying 'all evil' in the process).



The best hint towards what the hero(es) are truly going to do comes from the Rhoynish version of the story in TWoIaF. Everybody has to work together to wrestle that storm. It is not about one savior but about many. And the belief that only one person can bring the dawn is the lie. That's what the tragic in Stannis' story is - the belief that he has to fight this fight makes him believe he has to unite Westeros under his rule (killing people in the process). And that's actually also the trap Jon Snow could fall into if he learns of his heritage and listens to Melisandre. He is where the savior should be and he has the blood - but if he was all that it took than George is wasting lots and lots of pages with Dany's story.


Daenerys may already be the Slayer of Lies in the sense that she is actually already uniting disparate people under her leadership (or people are uniting themselves following her cause). Dothraki, Ghiscari, slavers, slaves, sellswords, Ironborn, Volantenes, etc. they all seem to become part of this movement. And they will all go to Westeros to help save humanity there - by default if not by design as winter will have come when they arrive, so they better help defeat the Others or, well, die.


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Unique Fiery snowflake, middle path walker he may be....

He's not that unique, really. He's the last 'product' of a series of Valyrian/First Men unions:

  • Brynden, Mya and Gwenys Rivers, children of Melissa Blackwood.

Aegor Rivers, son of Barbra Bracken

Daeron, Aerion, Aemon, Aegon, Rhae, Daella Targaryen, children of Dyanna Dayne.

Duncan, Jahaerys, Shaera, Daeron, children of Bethany Blackwood.

Rhaegar had Dayne and Blackwood blood. Lyanna had Blackwood blood, too. And Flint and Locke.

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Actually, it seems Dany has Stark blood, too. According to the MUSH Mariah/Marian Stark was betrothed to Seth Blackwood, the heir of Benjicot Blackwood from the Dance. Missy Blackwood is one of Seth's younger sisters, by the way. This means that if Seth and Mariah/Marian turn out to be Betha's grandparents, all of the descendants of Aegon V have Stark blood. Not to mention that there might have been other Stark-Blackwood matches in the past.


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He's not that unique, really. He's the last 'product' of a series of Valyrian/First Men unions:

  • Brynden, Mya and Gwenys Rivers, children of Melissa Blackwood.

Aegor Rivers, son of Barbra Bracken

Daeron, Aerion, Aemon, Aegon, Rhae, Daella Targaryen, children of Dyanna Dayne.

Duncan, Jahaerys, Shaera, Daeron, children of Bethany Blackwood.

Rhaegar had Dayne and Blackwood blood. Lyanna had Blackwood blood, too. And Flint and Locke.

I think the Starks might not be First Men

So, the union of a Stark and a Targaryen might be the first time in Jon.

Besides, even as the First Men theory goes, the Starks are exceptionally different than the rest of the First Men.

I think the Daynes also are not First Men. Maekar's children from his Dayne wife were exceptionally gifted in prophetic dreams and magic.

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Jon is fire and ice, and has shown a marked tendency to seek middle paths between conflicting advice. For now at least, my money is on Jon's role in ASOIAF being the guy who finds a way between the paths the Others and the fire prophets (be they Targ or Shadowbinder) and, as sj4iy says, breaks the cycle. Whether such a middle path would make either side content is another question.

This is exactly how things seems to be headed... If Only GRRM did not Insist that Prophesy is always fulfilled in the damnedest ways... Prophesy will bite you in the ass...

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Mithras,



Bloodraven makes it clear that prophetic dreams are Targaryen/Valyrian thing. Not a Dayne thing - whatever the Daynes are. Daemon the Younger doesn't have any Dayne blood yet his prophetic dreams are compared to those of the Targaryens.



And Dany would have Stark blood - whatever it is - through her Blackwood mother - if Seth is Betha's grandfather.


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Mithras,

Bloodraven makes it clear that prophetic dreams are Targaryen/Valyrian thing. Not a Dayne thing - whatever the Daynes are. Daemon the Younger doesn't have any Dayne blood yet his prophetic dreams are compared to those of the Targaryens.

And Dany would have Stark blood - whatever it is - through her Blackwood mother - if Seth is Betha's grandfather.

But the MUSH isn't canon, is it?

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Jon is fire and ice, and has shown a marked tendency to seek middle paths between conflicting advice. For now at least, my money is on Jon's role in ASOIAF being the guy who finds a way between the paths the Others and the fire prophets (be they Targ or Shadowbinder) and, as sj4iy says, breaks the cycle. Whether such a middle path would make either side content is another question.

“My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn.”

“I do not know how you observe guest right on your mountain, ser. In the north we hold it sacred. Wun Wun is a guest here.”

Ser Patrek smiled. “Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?

And ever since AGOT, GRRM have sprinkled Jon's path with foreshadowing...

Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. “There you are. Jon, damn it, don’t go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you.”

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Nope, but that tidbit seems to be bases on notes from TWoIaF. Mariah/Marian is a character from the TWoIaF Stark appendix, after all. And with Black Aly Blackwood being Cregan's second wife there is a very good chance that a Stark girl would marry back into the Blackwood line.



Non canonical MUSH stuff relates to characters they made up for the game. And it is still there, I guess, for the characters and their background that were developed prior to Elia and Linda receiving TWoIaF information as they would not just cut out established characters from the MUSH. However, all the stuff that was changed and added after TWoIaF should be effectively be canon (i.e. have the same status as stuff that George has written but not yet published - it could still change but there is a good chance that it might stand).



Anyway, I don't think a direct Stark-Targaryen match should be much different from an indirect match - especially since Jaehaerys-Shaera and Aerys-Rhaella actually sort of preserved the Egg-Betha bloodline.


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Mithras,

Bloodraven makes it clear that prophetic dreams are Targaryen/Valyrian thing. Not a Dayne thing - whatever the Daynes are. Daemon the Younger doesn't have any Dayne blood yet his prophetic dreams are compared to those of the Targaryens.

And Dany would have Stark blood - whatever it is - through her Blackwood mother - if Seth is Betha's grandfather.

I didnot say it is a Dayne thing. My suggestion is that these bloodlines have some magic in them and when they mix, their magical potential is multiplied and come out.

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Well, with Daenys and Daemon II as counter examples I'd say we've no evidence for that. Especially since we have no examples that the Daynes have any talent for prophetic dreams.


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Well, with Daenys and Daemon II as counter examples I'd say we've no evidence for that. Especially since we have no examples that the Daynes have any talent for prophetic dreams.





Do not take it as only the prophetic dreams because that is not the only magical thing in the series.



Daynes have a sword that is "alive with light" and not all of them are allowed to wield it. As if only certain Daynes have the gift of being able to wield Dawn at its full magical capacity. That is similar to how not all of the Targaryens have prophetic dreams and affinity for sorcery.


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