R+L=J v 141

[Greymoon]

Well, with Daenys and Daemon II as counter examples I'd say we've no evidence for that. Especially since we have no examples that the Daynes have any talent for prophetic dreams.

But are prophetic dreams really unique to House Targaryen?

Spoilers for Arianne I, WoW.

Teona Tolland may have prophetic dreams, though... she says, "they were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But are prophetic dreams really unique to House Targaryen?

Spoilers for Arianne I, WoW.

Teona Tolland may have prophetic dreams, though... she says, "they were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

Perhaps a marriage between that House, and a House which had previously married a decendant of House Targaryen... Like House Tarth, perhaps? ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Its my observation as new things are added on, the unique nature of both House Stark and Targaryens are becoming diluted. It started out that the Targaryens only married amongst themselves, and now there is a Targ. under every rock.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

keeping a sword and using its (alleged) magic aren't the same. As of yet we have no evidence that the Daynes have an inherent magical trait.

Rhaenys,

the Toland dragon blood could come straight from the Martells (a child or grandchild of Daenerys and Maron) or a Penrose match. I could easily see Elaena marry one of her daughters to a Dornish Lady/Lord to strengthen/continue Daeron II's ties to Dorne. She was quite influential during his reign and most likely interested in/willing to contribute to Daeron's Dornish-friendly politics. A match between a Toland and one of Rhaena's daughters seems less likely as Dorne was not yet part of the Realm then and Oldtown and Ghost Hill aren't exactly close to each other. However, there could have been a 'hostage romance' similar to Kevan-Dorna. But then, I'd not be surprised if Dyanna Dayne had a Targaryen ancestor as well following a match made during the Conquest of Dorne (to strengthen the ties) or afterwards in the wake of Baelor's peace treaty and the Daeron-Mariah match.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

But are prophetic dreams really unique to House Targaryen?

And Jojen Reed is a secret Taaaargh, too! No, of course not.

[Greymoon]

And Jojen Reed is a secret Taaaargh, too! No, of course not.

Yes, that's what I meant... Though some will argue that Jojen Reed has Targaryen blood as well, through Duncan. :) in any case, the difference between Targaryen prophetic dreams, and the sort Jojen has, is pretty unclear....

[RumHam]

Yes, that's what I meant... Though some will argue that Jojen Reed has Targaryen blood as well, through Duncan. :) in any case, the difference between Targaryen prophetic dreams, and the sort Jojen has, is pretty unclear....

Duncan the Small? How would he be related to Jojen?

[Greymoon]

Duncan the Small? How would he be related to Jojen?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96492-a-dragonfly-among-the-reeds-is-howland-reed-the-grandson-of-duncan-the-small/

[Lord Varys]

RunHum,

check out Ibbison's thread on 'a dragonfly among the reeds'. I tried to argue against that whole idea - or at least the part of the idea which makes Jenny a crannogwoman - but he is quite persistent. I'm not completely opposed to the idea that a child of Duncan and Jenny might have married into House Reed, but I don't think it makes much sense seeing how Howland behaved during the Rebellion. It is more likely that Jenny and Duncan's children - if they had any - died at Summerhall, if you ask me.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Lord Varys,

Of course, a match with a descendant from Daenerys and Maron would perhaps be more logical, I don't know why I thought about Tarth first...

I would be carefull, though, with the theories that every match made with Targaryens, was a cousin-cousin marriage, no matter how distant... Betha Blackwood doesn't need to have had Targaryen ancestry... nor Dyanna Dayne, or Jenna Dondarrion, etc... It could be that a few of the wives of Targaryens were cousins, however distant.. But all...?

[IceFire125]

Talking about Starks/Targaryens reminded me of the Oxford visit this year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfvVluNxujc&feature=youtu.be&t=1327

Kind of a funny moment during the Oxford Union visit, Kit saying that he wanted to be a warg and put himself into a wolf. Several thoughts here, first it was funny since when taken sexually, clearly Kit didn't mean it like that, then again, Kit plays a character who is no doubt, to me, to have Valyrian blood. His ancestors from Targaryen blood lines, the dragonlords of old Valyria, experiment with human engineering. Forcing slaves at first and participated themselves to mate with beasts (maybe even wyverns and wyrms) creating half human/dragons.

[BearQueen87]

-=Precious=-

Rhaegar and Lyanna married and their child is Jon. ;)

That's crazy talk

I think the Starks might not be First Men

I find that *really* hard to believe. Besides, while all Starks are First Men not all First Men are Starks. There is something different about the Starks--probably something that has to do with their relationship with winter. But they can still be First Men and Jon can still be First Men/ Blood of Old Valyria.

[BearQueen87]

Yes, that's what I meant... Though some will argue that Jojen Reed has Targaryen blood as well, through Duncan. :) in any case, the difference between Targaryen prophetic dreams, and the sort Jojen has, is pretty unclear....

Over in the Bran Re-Read project we talked quite a bit about Jojen's prophetic dreams and if BR was the one who opened Jojen's ability to Greensee. Might not be anything, but if BR did open Jojen's ability, then there's at least a Targ connection.

[RumHam]

RunHum,

check out Ibbison's thread on 'a dragonfly among the reeds'. I tried to argue against that whole idea - or at least the part of the idea which makes Jenny a crannogwoman - but he is quite persistent. I'm not completely opposed to the idea that a child of Duncan and Jenny might have married into House Reed, but I don't think it makes much sense seeing how Howland behaved during the Rebellion. It is more likely that Jenny and Duncan's children - if they had any - died at Summerhall, if you ask me.

Doesn't the Targaryen family tree in the worldbook confirm that Duncan and Jenny had no children? at least none that lived very long, I know some of the children that died in the cradle are not listed there.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Doesn't the Targaryen family tree in the worldbook confirm that Duncan and Jenny had no children? at least none that lived very long, I know some of the children that died in the cradle are not listed there.

To be fair, we know that Rhae and Daella had children (at least one each), and those children (nor the marriages) are listed... So technically, the abscence of Duncan's children in the tree doesn't necessarily mean there were none..

[RumHam]

To be fair, we know that Rhae and Daella had children (at least one each), and those children (nor the marriages) are listed... So technically, the abscence of Duncan's children in the tree doesn't necessarily mean there were none..

Oh I didn't realize that.

[Greymoon]

Over in the Bran Re-Read project we talked quite a bit about Jojen's prophetic dreams and if BR was the one who opened Jojen's ability to Greensee. Might not be anything, but if BR did open Jojen's ability, then there's at least a Targ connection.

That's very probable. imo, to have greendreams, or the greenseer ability also has something to do with near-death experiences, or illness. Skinchanging and greenseeing seem related, but only one in a thousand skinchanger becomes a greenseer. Is that just a matter of hazard? I'm not certain.

What sets Bran apart from his siblings, is that he almost died falling from that tower. What sets Jojen apart from Meera, is that he almost died from greywater fever... Patchface isn't a 'greendreamer' per se, but he's probably drowned, and look at how prophetic he is!

I'm a bit wary of the Bloodraven talks, tbh. I agree that it's likely he had something to do with Jojen and Bran's abilities. But how much did he truly influence the dreams? How much was bound to happen, and was already inherent to the boys?

I see Bloodraven as a mentor, a guide, (with ambiguous intentions), but not as an almighty puppet player. His power must have limits, imo, he can't be responsible for every slightly prophetic dream, or for every suspicious animal behavior. I'm not certain Bloodraven is even in power anymore. What's to tell us, that he isn't being controlled by the children? Is he even still human? Still alive?

[Greymoon]

Oh I didn't realize that.

GRRM hasn't fleshed out every detail and every marriage, even in the published family trees. Some is probably due to the fact it's irrelevant and he hasn't given it much thought yet, but the rest he might just have kept in 'reserve', so as not to spoil anything.

I'm very curious about the Daynes, and the Blackwoods. And the Reeds, too.

If Jon ends up King, what crown would he wear? I always imagined that Rhaegar would wear the crown of Aegon III and Aegon V....

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

well, I'd say that Ronnel/Aelinor certainly are descended from one of Rhaena's daughters. That much is a given from Ran's cousin remark and the fact that the names Jocelyn and Laena seem to references to Rhaena's ancestors through the elder Targaryen line (Laena Velaryon and Jocelyn Baratheon).

In Jena Dondarrion's case there is only circumstantial evidence - like the fact that Beric having Targaryen blood could explain how the kiss of life works on him, and the fact that apparently nobody minded that the Prince of Dragonstone married a Dondarrion if Egg marrying Betha might have been a big deal had he been the first in line to the throne then.

I doubt that Alys Arryn had Targaryen blood, and the chances are bad for Dyanna - although it is not completely impossible with those six Hightower daughters.

RumHum,

TWoIaF also lacks Daella and Rhae's existing issue, so the fact that there aren't any children of Duncan and Jenny in the tree is no evidence. However, I actually see little reason to exclude such issue from the tree. If they are destined to play an important role in the series then it would actually have been a perfect way to hint that this branch actually exists. And it is very unlikely that any children of Duncan and Jenny have already shown up in the series posing as different characters - which could have been a reason to keep them hidden.

Greymoon,

considering that Jaehaerys II wore Maekar's crown instead of Egg's crown my guess is that the Dragonbane's crown melted on Aegon V's head at Summerhall.

I'd assume that Jojen's dreams and green dreams in general come from a different magical tradition/line (the Children of the Forest rather than the dragonlords). It seems to be a traditional and well-known thing among the crannogmen, after all.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

That's crazy talk

:agree: